Transgender bathrooms

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cruisehopeful

Wishing I was taking a nap on a ship.
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Oct 25, 2015
Thus my interest. It's acceptable (even essential) to ask the cicgendered person why they are uncomfortable. It is socially/culturally insensitive to ask a transgender person the same thing.

I ask because I'm curious, interested and open to learn. Not because I am not taking into account social/cultural context. As social/cultural context changes and grows I have to ask BECAUSE I take those things into context.
I liken it to asking a black person why they are uncomfortable using the "colored" restroom. We can ask a white person why they are uncomfortable using the "colored" restroom and it would not be an insensitive question. However, if we ask the same question to a black person, we are being insensitive because it is completely insensitive to tell them that they are different from white people and therefore have a different restroom and expect them to explain why they aren't comfortable with that.

Asking a transgender person why they aren't comfortable using the opposite gender restroom is like telling them that they are different from everyone else of their gender class. It is a very insensitive and prejudice question.
 

Westcoastwild

DIS Veteran
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
This is where you go poop and pee. Does this really matter that much? Go into the bathroom and do your business. I think most people aren't interested in being in their why you do your business. I know I do even want to be in the bathroom some takes a poop no matter what gender identity. The fact that people have so much time on their hands to worry about where they are going to relieve themselves is just crazy to me. I say we just get rid of all the bathrooms and poop outside. Then nobody will get there feelings hurt.
Unforfutunately that option is not open to us due to the 1913 Treaty between the ursine nation and the United confederation of **** Sapiens. It gave ursines the sole right to determine who can and can't defecate in the woods. Unfortunately, due to **** sapien's extensive use of "bear lockers", they have been excluded from the outdoors bodily relief initiative.:dancer:
 

StageTek

It's kind of fun to do the impossible.
Joined
Apr 20, 2007
That is sad to me. I am interested in learning how people feel. My intent is to become more aware and more sensitive and more understanding. However by just asking I am insensitive and even prejudice. So I will not ask. I apologize to all I have offended.
 
  • disneyygirrl

    A dream is a wish your heart makes...
    Joined
    Sep 13, 2011
    I think it's wrong u went into men's room. Sorry your line is long. Lol. As a man if I go in women's room I would be screamed at and called a weirdo. It is just a dumb issue
    You're scared of perverts... you're escorting your five year old child to the bathroom and not leaving them alone, so I think you're safe there...?
     

    disneyygirrl

    A dream is a wish your heart makes...
    Joined
    Sep 13, 2011
    This is where you go poop and pee. Does this really matter that much? Go into the bathroom and do your business. I think most people aren't interested in being in their why you do your business. I know I do even want to be in the bathroom some takes a poop no matter what gender identity. The fact that people have so much time on their hands to worry about where they are going to relieve themselves is just crazy to me. I say we just get rid of all the bathrooms and poop outside. Then nobody will get there feelings hurt.
    It does really matter that much. Unfortunately, those who identify as transgender fall victim to violence far too often. Each year, the statistics increase.
     

    wilkeliza

    DIS Veteran
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    Feb 1, 2013
    That is sad to me. I am interested in learning how people feel. My intent is to become more aware and more sensitive and more understanding. However by just asking I am insensitive and even prejudice. So I will not ask. I apologize to all I have offended.
    The reason a transgender would be uncomfortable in the bathroom of their birth-gender is because it would be the same as a ciswoman being in the men's bathroom. By forcing them to use their birth gender bathroom they are no longer recognized as their true identity. Imagine if someone who looked just like the 15 year old girl you discussed early was forced to use the men's restroom and deal with taunts and sexual comments every day? It is even more jarring the other way. If a F to M was to be forced to use the bathroom of their birth gender then how would anyone ever tell who is a transman or cisman? This poor human would be shrieked at every time the peed in public because they are being forced to use a bathroom that doesn't match who they are and how they are presenting themselves. In turn by trying to follow the law or previeved social contract/norm they are making what is a bodily function one of the most stressful parts of their life.
     
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    Westcoastwild

    DIS Veteran
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    Jul 26, 2016
    The reason a transgender would be uncomfortable in the bathroom of their birthgender is because it would be the same as a ciswoman being in the men's bathroom. By forcing them to use their birth gender bathroom they are no linger recognized as their true identity. Imagine if someone who looked just like the 15 year old girl you discussed early was forced to use the men's restroom and deal with taunts and sexual comments every day? It is even more jaring the other way. If a F to M was to be forced to use the bathroom of their birth gender then how would anyone ever tell who is a transman or cisman? This poor human would be shrieked at every time the peed in public because they are being forced to use a bathroom that doesn't match who they are and how they are presenting themselves. In turn by trying to follow the law or previeved social contract/norm they are making what is a bodily function one of the most stressful parts of their life.


    Somehow, this argument always comes down "won't someone think of the children" for the people against unisex bathrooms. Perverts and children. As if a sign could keep perverts out. As if predators are all men. As if bathrooms are high risk areas to begin with. :confused3 As if seeing another human naked will scar a kid for life anyway.

    I don't mind having an open discussion about why it makes people personally uncomfortable. I just don't care for how they always play that particular card.
     
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  • wilkeliza

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 1, 2013
    Love the response, but stagetek doesn't want to know. He/she just wants to normalize his/her intolerant viewpoint. It's all in how it's written- there is no reason to cite specify teenage girl that original post except for the emotional appeal. "Won't someone think of the children?"

    That, somehow, is what this argument always comes down to for the people against unisex bathrooms. Perverts and children. As if a sign could keep perverts out. As if predators are all men. As if bathrooms are high risk areas to begin with. :confused3 As if seeing another human naked will scar a kid for life anyway.
    I'll admit I've taken the answer the question and don't call names to try and get the other side to see. I know a lot of times it isn't out of a genuine want to learn and change but I figure just in case as an ally of transgender individuals that maybe somethin I say will sink in.
     

    Westcoastwild

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 26, 2016
    I'll admit I've taken the answer the question and don't call names to try and get the other side to see. I know a lot of times it isn't out of a genuine want to learn and change but I figure just in case as an ally of transgender individuals that maybe somethin I say will sink in.
    Ah, right. Makes sense. :thumbsup2I'll edit my previous remark to aid in creating positivity. That poster's last post just made me mad. The misunderstood victim card was a lousy move.
     

    LongLiveRafiki

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 8, 2017
    The following are my opinions as a non-trans woman (I hate the word cisgender because it sounds like we are being referred to as sissies- just my observation)

    I would like to see all bathooms have completely private stalls. I feel uncomfortable as a woman at times in the restroom with other women because I can't tell you the number of times women have bent down to peek under the stall or peeked through the crack to check if someone is in there. Plenty of times there are stalls with the lock broken and all the others are filled and you really have to go so you try to hold the door closed with your foot, but if someone gave it a little push, it will open. Or you think the door is locked but a push from someone still opens it. My brother said that in his high school, which also happens to be in an upper middle class district, most of the stall doors in the men's room are completely missing. Apparently kids kept breaking them off and the school got sick of replacing them. There is no privacy there. Also, this is probably more of a thing with women, but they are frequently on the phone in the restroom, which makes me uncomfortable because they most likely aren't doing anything creepy, but you don't know for sure if they are taking pictures or videos. Heck, where I live, it is very popular for females to take selfies in the bathroom. If the stalls were fully enclosed, all of these problems could be eliminated. I would like to see all changing tables in a private area as well. Frequently while changing my kids in public restrooms, women would come over to peek at the baby. I understand that they probably aren't trying to be creepy, they just want to see the baby's face, but it's still really freaking creepy having someone hovering over you telling you how cute your baby is when you're trying to change their diaper. My issue isn't with transgenders but the design of the bathrooms, and as stated, I have this problem with restrooms even if you take trans people out of the equation.

    Since this huge media spectacle, there have been several reported cases of men dressed as women going into women's restrooms, fitting rooms, and locker rooms and taking pictures or video. I have no idea if these people are actually trans or just pervs, either way it is wrong, but it does seem to be more of a reported issue since the media bathroom debacle. It would be equally wrong for a woman to do the same thing in the woman's room. I have not however heard stories of that yet, but it doesn't mean it can't/won't/doesn't happen. But there have also been a few cases of people pretending to be trans (and saying they really arent) and going into the opposite gender's bathroom and recording it for a social experiment to see how they are treated, which is wrong on sooo many levels. First off, you just plain should not ever be taking pictures or video in the freaking bathroom. Secondly, it makes it harder for some people to be accepting of trans people in the bathroom if people who are not trans are going in the opposite gender bathroom for a social experiment. It is one thing to allow transgenders to use the bathroom they are comfortable in, but when you have people who are not trans going in just to see how people react, it feels like they are just exploiting the issue and it does make people more uncomfortable around someone appearing to be trans because then they wonder if they actually are trans or are just in there for a social experiment. I feel that this bathroom issue has gotten to the point that anyone, regardless of gender identity, feels they can go in whichever bathroom they choose, so again, I think we need to change the design to have fully enclosed stalls. Same with fitting rooms.

    When it comes to locker rooms, I think they need a complete overhaul, especially if they are to accommodate trans people who have not had a sex change. There needs to be more private areas to change, shower, etc. I absolutely would feel uncomfortable with someone with male parts openly showering or changing around me in the locker room. Their gender identity is irrelevant at that point. The purpose of having gendered spaces such as locker rooms is to give some modicum of safety and privacy while undressing from those with different parts. It would be difficult to determine when a M2F trans is naked that they are trans if they are pre sex change. Am I supposed to assume they are trans and not be concerned? What if they are not trans and just a guy, would people still be okay with that? At that point, there's no reason to even have a building to change in if everyone is allowed wherever they choose. For women who have been sexually assaulted, I can definitely understand how they would feel unsafe having a man undressing in front of them as that can trigger painful memories. They have a right to be in a locker room they feel safe in. I personally dont like when women shower or change that openly either. It definitely makes it difficult taking my young son in there if his dad is not with us because I don't think he needs to see naked women. There is no way I would have allowed my daughter at any age in the men's locker room (with her dad). No, I'm not religious, I just feel that it is a parent's right to determine when to expose their children to sexuality and I don't feel society should dictate EVER that it is an appropriate time for my child to see a stranger's genitalia. I know my daughter would be freaked out if she went into the locker room at the pool, water park, etc and saw someone with male parts. Yes, I could talk to her and explain about transgenders, but young kids are not going to fully understand such a complex issue as a man who is really a woman but has a man's parts is allowed to be naked in here and it's okay because that's really a woman. There's no way she would understand or feel comfortable with that and I do think it would be messed up to expect her to suck it up and deal with it. Her comfort is just as important as everyone else's.

    To sum up, I think all bathooms, fitting rooms, and locker rooms need to be redesigned for more privacy. My biggest concern with transgenders (if they have not had a full sex change) lies in the locker rooms where there can be complete nakedness. Everyone, regardless of gender identity, deserves a place where they feel comfortable. I certainly do not want a trans person to feel uncomfortable in any facility, but non-trans people have the same rights to feel comfortable. It does bother me how some people feel the need to throw labels of intolerant or transphobic when it comes to this issue. Sure, there are some people who are, but many people just want some privacy. Just because someone is uncomfortable does not ultimately mean they are intolerant. All of these issues could be solved if there were completely enclosed stalls/showers/changing areas in all facilities. Until that happens, regardless of gender identity and which restroom you're in, I wish people would respect one another's privacy and NOT peek through the stall cracks or underneath to assess if it's occupied or push on a stall door that you don't know for sure is empty. Simply ask if there's someone in there. Give people privacy when changing a baby's diaper. And be respectful of others rights to privacy in locker rooms. Lastly, I wish everyone would stop judging and labelling anyone who holds an opposing opinion. There are ways to solve this bathroom issue without invalidating people's rights to privacy and comfort, and no one should be made to feel guilty for being uncomfortable in a bathroom/ fitting room/locker room regardless of their gender identity.
     

    Smittolis

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 2, 2017
    As with many things, communication leads to education. This thread is a prime example as to how the opportunity to educate people who are willing to learn has been passed up in favor of hostile engagement and an attempt to invalidate others personal experiences.
     
  • MetalMasterC

    Aura of Misfortune
    Joined
    Mar 5, 2003
    There is a lot to take in, and I want to break this down and keep it brief. So I will point out some flaws and points. My disclaimer here is that I DO NOT SPEAK FOR ALL TRANS PEOPLE, as some may have different opinions on this. However, having many friends that are (as well as myself), this is what I noted:

    The following are my opinions as a non-trans woman (I hate the word cisgender because it sounds like we are being referred to as sissies- just my observation)
    Just a word of note: Just reading alone that you are a not trans, makes it pretty likely that anything you say here would be irrelevant in the eyes of most trans persons, seeing as you aren't trans. So this is why I feel I can help along your message and will break this down from me: someone who is non-conforming.

    I would like to see all bathrooms have completely private stalls. *SNIP* My issue isn't with transgenders but the design of the bathrooms, and as stated, I have this problem with restrooms even if you take trans people out of the equation.
    Some of this sounds like more of paranoia on your part. It also breaks down to how the stalls are maintained. A good, well-maintained bathroom is already private enough. No one wants to be seen pooping or peeing anyway, and it has nothing to do with gender in that instance. Privacy differs from person to person. The issue with trans people and bathrooms has more to do about genetics and assumptions, not privacy.

    Since this huge media spectacle, there have been several reported cases of men dressed as women going into women's restrooms, fitting rooms, and locker rooms and taking pictures or video. I have no idea if these people are actually trans or just pervs, either way it is wrong, but it does seem to be more of a reported issue since the media bathroom debacle. It would be equally wrong for a woman to do the same thing in the woman's room. I have not however heard stories of that yet, but it doesn't mean it can't/won't/doesn't happen. But there have also been a few cases of people pretending to be trans (and saying they really arent) and going into the opposite gender's bathroom and recording it for a social experiment to see how they are treated, which is wrong on sooo many levels. First off, you just plain should not ever be taking pictures or video in the freaking bathroom. Secondly, it makes it harder for some people to be accepting of trans people in the bathroom if people who are not trans are going in the opposite gender bathroom for a social experiment. *SNIP*
    Anyone can say the person is a "man" in "women's clothing" and feel like they are being spied on. I've only ever seen one or two do this for their "social experiment" and these have been people who are transphobic to begin with and only want to "prove" some point that didn't need to be proven. It seems like this is all of a sudden an issue BECAUSE of the media attention it's getting. There was an instance of a cis-woman being berated by another cis-woman after being accused of being a man and entering the women's restroom. This woman has been on YouTube to share her story. Can't find the link though.

    When it comes to locker rooms, I think they need a complete overhaul, especially if they are to accommodate trans people who have not had a sex change. There needs to be more private areas to change, shower, etc. I absolutely would feel uncomfortable with someone with male parts openly showering or changing around me in the locker room. Their gender identity is irrelevant at that point. The purpose of having gendered spaces such as locker rooms is to give some modicum of safety and privacy while undressing from those with different parts. It would be difficult to determine when a M2F trans is naked that they are trans if they are pre sex change. Am I supposed to assume they are trans and not be concerned? What if they are not trans and just a guy, would people still be okay with that? At that point, there's no reason to even have a building to change in if everyone is allowed wherever they choose. For women who have been sexually assaulted, I can definitely understand how they would feel unsafe having a man undressing in front of them as that can trigger painful memories. They have a right to be in a locker room they feel safe in.
    Society still defines gender, sex, and genetics on a person's body parts. It's a social construct that has become part of our Societal Standard over the many years and it's something that needs some tweaking. It's tough for people who can't afford to or can't have (for health reasons and such) GRS, as they won't feel a part of the peer group they feel most aligned with. For some, that could trigger dysphoria. Even by separating locker rooms to be more private for both parties will still make those who are trans feel like they don't belong. So that becomes a grey area.

    I personally dont like when women shower or change that openly either. It definitely makes it difficult taking my young son in there if his dad is not with us because I don't think he needs to see naked women. There is no way I would have allowed my daughter at any age in the men's locker room (with her dad). No, I'm not religious, I just feel that it is a parent's right to determine when to expose their children to sexuality and I don't feel society should dictate EVER that it is an appropriate time for my child to see a stranger's genitalia. I know my daughter would be freaked out if she went into the locker room at the pool, water park, etc and saw someone with male parts. Yes, I could talk to her and explain about transgenders, but young kids are not going to fully understand such a complex issue as a man who is really a woman but has a man's parts is allowed to be naked in here and it's okay because that's really a woman. There's no way she would understand or feel comfortable with that and I do think it would be messed up to expect her to suck it up and deal with it. Her comfort is just as important as everyone else's.
    I don't want to sit here and tell anyone how to raise their kids, but when sexuality and those curiosities come along, the child makes that decision. They look to you for answers. They are putting that trust in you. They will have those questions whether they are 9, 13, or 17 years old. Many children make this discovery about themselves long before 9 years of age. A parent doesn't decide when a kid is ready for knowledge about their bodies.

    You say young kids won't understand, but you'd be surprised. Younger people are actually more understanding of a lot if you just explain it to them concisely. A lot of the "fear" that some children have is based upon media, and/or influence of others (could be family members or institutions). A lot of that fear carries over from generation to generation.

    To sum up, I think all bathooms, fitting rooms, and locker rooms need to be redesigned for more privacy. My biggest concern with transgenders (if they have not had a full sex change) lies in the locker rooms where there can be complete nakedness. Everyone, regardless of gender identity, deserves a place where they feel comfortable. I certainly do not want a trans person to feel uncomfortable in any facility, but non-trans people have the same rights to feel comfortable.*SNIP*
    While I do agree that we need to tweak how bathrooms and locker rooms are designed, it still doesn't change that society will always look at your body parts and DNA to decide who you are to society rather than the person inside. Again, stemming from societal constructs. The comfort many "non-trans" people want can be massively oppressive to those who are trans. Their comfort is based more upon not accepting that trans people are different, with different body parts, therefore defining them into certain gender roles. A man/woman is a man/woman, no matter the body parts.

    Down the line, someone is going to be uncomfortable. Someone is going to have some sort of issue. It's one thing to be uncomfortable in public restrooms or changing rooms in general, no matter what the gender. It's another to be uncomfortable in the same space because of someone's build, gender, or body parts. That, I feel, is the real issue.

    A lot of what you say does make some sense, but I get from most of this is paranoia on a personal level, outside of anything gender related. The world stops for no one and there are some things many people on either side have to deal with. That would be equivalent someone who is a recovering bulimic and doesn't want anyone to eat in front of them. There are times where people can't get away from PTSD situations.

    I hope this helps anyone looking at this get some sort of understanding or information. I would like to hope there is anyone who is trans add on to, or correct, anything I have mentioned here. Again, I don't speak for everyone who is trans.

    On a side note: One of the biggest things I have noticed is a lot pertaining to these issues are related more on MtF. Not so much FtM. In the Societal Standard, males are more revered. So when a genetic male represents themselves as something other than that Standard, it's an insult to all men and the society around them. It's a form of toxic masculinity. It seems like very rarely, FtM have much of an issue with restrooms. I could be wrong, and I hope someone steps forward with some helpful information.
     

    Grmnshplvr

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 8, 2014
    As the mother of a transgender son, and someone who has gotten to know several people of trans experience over the last year and a half I just wanted to add a note about the locker room issue. Majority of transgender people (I wont say all, but if I had to guess I'd say 99.9%) would rather die than anyone see them naked. The showers and locker rooms are really a non-issue. A transwoman who wants nothing more than to be seen as a woman is not going to walk around naked in a women's locker room/shower.

    As far as the bathrooms go, if you're afraid of pedophiles using the restroom then ban them from using the restroom and leave transgender people out of it. Everyone is concerned about pedophiles in the women's bathroom yet never seem too concerned that right now they can use the mens with little boys....I wonder why that is.

    Most likely its because they know its very rare that someone will be assaulted in a public restroom, because its a PUBLIC restroom, so in the end its just another excuse to shun transgender people because its easier than trying to understand something different.

    Also, transgendered is not a word. You cannot be transgendered. I can also say in my 35 years of life and using public restrooms I have yet to see a ***** or anyone else's ******...so there's that.

    I guess the proper name for our genitals is not allow on the disboards, but you get the point.
     

    fabfemmeboy

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Jun 17, 2014
    Rather than the more philosophical approach, since you did ask about Disney's take on it, IME they don't hassle anyone about it. Although Florida's law is not particularly trans-friendly, at both WDW and DL my partner and I (both trans and pretty androgynous) have used both sets of restrooms without anyone saying anything. Honestly there are so many people going in and out who are preoccupied with their own families that people give us far less trouble at Disney than elsewhere. My understanding is that Disney policy is that trans-identified people are allowed to use the restroom that best matches their identity, but CMs can correct me.
     

    Moxiepup

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Dec 12, 2016
    I just wanted to say:rotfl2: and :thumbsup2About the galactic nights thing.

    What stumps me is the people who want to wonder over that sort of thing. Like how do you plan to get evidence that ISN'T a girl? Peek through the crack? Demand to see a drivers license? Ask outright? I mean I'm not going to show any stranger in a public restroom proof of my gender on demand.

    And then there's the whole thing that you can't tell someone's sexuality just by looking at them. That never seems to cross the mind of people that I've met who worry about transgenders using the "wrong" restroom. :confused3 I personally think you're more likely to be ogled by a lesbian than a transgender in the ladies restroom but what do I know. If anyone does ogle others in bathrooms. That is generally the furthest thing from my mind when I'm using the facilities.
    While I can't speak for all lesbians, I can say for myself and every lesbian I know that we do not want to ogle anyone in the restroom. That is just nasty! Honestly, I think the people most likely to ogle others in a restroom are men so deep in the closet that they can't acknowledge their sexuality even to themselves. Women, gay or straight, just don't see restrooms as a romantic place.
     

    DantePD

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Jun 15, 2016
    Somehow, this argument always comes down "won't someone think of the children" for the people against unisex bathrooms. Perverts and children. As if a sign could keep perverts out. As if predators are all men. As if bathrooms are high risk areas to begin with. :confused3 As if seeing another human naked will scar a kid for life anyway.

    I don't mind having an open discussion about why it makes people personally uncomfortable. I just don't care for how they always play that particular card.
    It's called a "Dog Whistle", it's used when a bigot wants to say their bigoted thing and then claim to not be a bigot.
     

    OSUPhantom

    Go Bucks!
    Joined
    Feb 10, 2017
    Does Disney have a policy on gender-inclusive/trans accommodation in bathrooms? I certainly hope so, as a member of the LGBT community I've always felt safe at Disney and hope they have trans-friendly policies as well.

    I'll also refrain from responding to the scare-tactics on "I don't want my daughters next to a man" comments.
     

    Chuck S

    DVC Co-Moderator
    Moderator
    Joined
    Feb 6, 2000
    I don't think Disney has a particular policy. My elderly Mom and I used to go often during gay days, and I know she came out of a restroom once, gave a little chuckle and said that the person in the stall next to her was a male crossdresser. (Mom was in her 80s, and Trans probably wasn't on her radar). It didn't bother her at all, and really since the stalls have latch-able doors, it shouldn't bother anyone.
     
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