Up for discussion: The Game of Thrones BOOK SERIES. (not to be confused with the TV show)

[Disney1fan2002]

I thought I would start a thread so we can discuss the story as the book lays it out. I know the show does a very good job at keeping the story close to the book, but there is so much more in the books that are not in the TV show.

For instance, I am only 160 pages into the 1st book, and I am already calling it. Tyrion is a Targaryn. Maybe it's because I have been watching the TV series, but there is a ton of forshadowing GRRM does and it is clear to me now that Tyrion is talking to Jon about his dragon obsession. He has dragon blood.

Now, if GRRM would just finish the series already, we will know.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

In really want to try again. I started book one right after I binged season one so I was bored to tears. It's been a couple of years now so I might give it another try.

I'm hoping they are fairly different than the show because I will definitely lose interest if they're too similar.

 

[cabanafrau]

Book one probably has the closest resemblance to the show.

The books are filled with many lush and tantalizing -- and sometimes mind numbingly tedious details. I've only started to appreciate more and more of those details after losing many to the show, or having the show hybrid some of the characters, plots, into a single character.

The wolves are a much bigger part of the book. There are I believe seven Sand Snakes in the books, with the Dornish storyline not anything like what we've seen onscreen. Maybe it will go somewhere like that eventually, but not at the point we've left it.

Books four and five were a real slog. I've always meant to sit down and reread both for a third time, taking notes all the way. Curiously the show has gotten some complaints about time issues not adding up. Time was one of my biggest complaints in four and five. Given the way the story is presented on the page it was very confusing to hop around to all of the different narrator POVs and simultaneously have stuff happening in different books simultaneously or even a bit before many of the things read in the previous book. Pile that with names, names, names, many of which sound curiously the same, and the confusion was doing nothing but growing.

 

[jaybirdsmommy]

I thought I would start a thread so we can discuss the story as the book lays it out. I know the show does a very good job at keeping the story close to the book, but there is so much more in the books that are not in the TV show.

For instance, I am only 160 pages into the 1st book, and I am already calling it. Tyrion is a Targaryn. Maybe it's because I have been watching the TV series, but there is a ton of forshadowing GRRM does and it is clear to me now that Tyrion is talking to Jon about his dragon obsession. He has dragon blood.

Now, if GRRM would just finish the series already, we will know.

I love the books. I'm afraid at this point that 1. the show has diverged enough from the books that I'm not sure how they will come to similar endings, and 2. We won't ever get the book ending. George RR Martin isn't getting any younger.

I'm with you on Tyrion, definite Targaryen possibilities there. Not so sure with Jon though, it doesn't add up with the books. I'm wondering if they are merging him with a book character that isn't in the TV show,as they have done with a couple of other characters.

 

[cabanafrau]

I love the books. I'm afraid at this point that 1. the show has diverged enough from the books that I'm not sure how they will come to similar endings, and 2. We won't ever get the book ending. George RR Martin isn't getting any younger.

I'm with you on Tyrion, definite Targaryen possibilities there. Not so sure with Jon though, it doesn't add up with the books. I'm wondering if they are merging him with a book character that isn't in the TV show,as they have done with a couple of other characters.

I don't think the show and books will have the same ending -- IMO by design. This way HBO gets their ratings and the publisher is left with a very valuable, very saleable commodity as well.

R+L=J springs directly from the books.

 

[jaybirdsmommy]

I don't think the show and books will have the same ending -- IMO by design. This way HBO gets their ratings and the publisher is left with a very valuable, very saleable commodity as well.

R+L=J springs directly from the books.

There isn't really any definitive R+L=J in the books. It's been hinted at that L is J's mother and R would be the obvious choice for his father, but I think it's a red herring.

The reason that I have some doubts about that whole theory is that in the first book (and not at all in the show) a LOT (mind-numbing details anyone?) of attention was given to the fact that some houses have very strong physical attributes: Targaryens are always silver haired with purple eyes, Robert Baratheons bastards always have black hair, lannisters are blond. Catlyn Stark spends several pages in the first book regretting the fact that the only one of her children to look like Ned is Arya. Robb, Brann, and Sansa all look like her. So the Starks don't have the strong physical characteristic gene. Therefore, if Jon was a Trageryen/Stark combo, he should have silver hair and purple eyes.

Anyway, just a theory. I do think the show will go the R+L=J route.

 

[cabanafrau]

There isn't really any definitive R+L=J in the books. It's been hinted at that L is J's mother and R would be the obvious choice for his father, but I think it's a red herring.

The reason that I have some doubts about that whole theory is that in the first book (and not at all in the show) a LOT (mind-numbing details anyone?) of attention was given to the fact that some houses have very strong physical attributes: Targaryens are always silver haired with purple eyes, Robert Baratheons bastards always have black hair, lannisters are blond. Catlyn Stark spends several pages in the first book regretting the fact that the only one of her children to look like Ned is Arya. Robb, Brann, and Sansa all look like her. So the Starks don't have the strong physical characteristic gene. Therefore, if Jon was a Trageryen/Stark combo, he should have silver hair and purple eyes.

Anyway, just a theory. I do think the show will go the R+L=J route.

How do you account for Rhaegar's men from the Kingsguard being at the tower, protecting Lyanna? Rhaegar was off on the Trident where he met his demise. Aerys was left with only Jamie (Kingslayer) Lannister back in King's Landing. Why would the members of the Kingsguard sworn to protect the Prince be there at the tower instead with Lyanna?

 

[jaybirdsmommy]

How do you account for Rhaegar's men from the Kingsguard being at the tower, protecting Lyanna? Rhaegar was off on the Trident where he met his demise. Aerys was left with only Jamie (Kingslayer) Lannister back in King's Landing. Why would the members of the Kingsguard sworn to protect the Prince be there at the tower instead with Lyanna?

I think Lyanna and Rhaegar definitely had a thing going, I just don't think that Jon is his child. Rhaeger knew that Ned and Robert would try to take her back so he left his men there to protect her. The bigger question is why did she feel the need to hide Jon and who from and who is his real father???????? Hence the number one reason I want the book ending, too.

Like I said, it's just a theory. That thing about all Targaryens being silver haired and purple eyed (Emilia Clarke refused to wear contacts after the pilot episode so another detail left out of the show) always bugged me when people mentioned R+L=J.

 

[cabanafrau]

I think Lyanna and Rhaegar definitely had a thing going, I just don't think that Jon is his child. Rhaeger knew that Ned and Robert would try to take her back so he left his men there to protect her. The bigger question is why did she feel the need to hide Jon and who from and who is his real father???????? Hence the number one reason I want the book ending, too.

Like I said, it's just a theory. That thing about all Targaryens being silver haired and purple eyed (Emilia Clarke refused to wear contacts after the pilot episode so another detail left out of the show) always bugged me when people mentioned R+L=J.

Sorry, I find it incredibly implausible that a man of duty and honor such as Arthur Dayne was known to be would have been at that tower for Rhaegar's lady love and her baby of unknown origin unless that baby was the Prince's.

Yes, the Targaryen's are an ancient family with a magic history -- as are the Starks. Yes, in the books Arya is the only one of Catelyn's children to favor the Starks and not the Tullys. Interestingly we're told Arya favored Lyanna -- hence Robert commenting on her beauty upon arriving at Winterfell. Jon does have a physical manifestation pointing to his Targaryen heritage on the page and on the screen -- it's no coincidence Ghost is white.

 

[rastahomie]

Reading those books is like reading the Book of Leviticus. In King James.

 

[jaybirdsmommy]

Sorry, I find it incredibly implausible that a man of duty and honor such as Arthur Dayne was known to be would have been at that tower for Rhaegar's lady love and her baby of unknown origin unless that baby was the Prince's.

Yes, the Targaryen's are an ancient family with a magic history -- as are the Starks. Yes, in the books Arya is the only one of Catelyn's children to favor the Starks and not the Tullys. Interestingly we're told Arya favored Lyanna -- hence Robert commenting on her beauty upon arriving at Winterfell. Jon does have a physical manifestation pointing to his Targaryen heritage on the page and on the screen -- it's no coincidence Ghost is white.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the end.

Although I did recently see a Facebook theory that Jon is Sir Arthur Dayne's son. Which would explain why he was there. Apparently Lyanna got around.

 

[cabanafrau]

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the end.

Although I did recently see a Facebook theory that Jon is Sir Arthur Dayne's son. Which would explain why he was there. Apparently Lyanna got around.

So you find the Facebook theory so much more credible than the clues scattered through the books about Jon? Yet you find Tyrion automatically a Targaryen candidate with much less pointing that way?

I do agree that there is likely much more to be revealed about the Daynes in the book. I strongly suspect most of it will not surround Ser Arthur.

 

[jaybirdsmommy]

So you find the Facebook theory so much more credible than the clues scattered through the books about Jon? Yet you find Tyrion automatically a Targaryen candidate with much less pointing that way?

I do agree that there is likely much more to be revealed about the Daynes in the book. I strongly suspect most of it will not surround Ser Arthur.

Ummmmm......I didn't say I took the facebook theory as credible evidence, just put it out there as something funny that I read recently to explain why Dayne might have been there. There are all kinds of theories out there as to how the book will end and who Jon's father is. I saw another one recently that said the NIght King will turn out to be the good guy trying to save the world from Azor Ahai. Theories are fun, doesn't make them true or believable.

Tyrion is more of a gut feeling, no evidence whatsoever.

As far as the clues about Jon, there are also clues pointing the other direction. Yes, Rhaegar is the obvious choice for his father, but I think it will only be obvious until it isn't.

Personally, I think he's Robert Baratheon's (or one of the Baratheon's, who knows). Why else would Ned have kept him out of sight when Robert visited Winterfell? If I'm remembering correctly, at dinner the night that Jon and Tyrion are seated away from the main table, Jon is sulking a little at the insult, which implies that he might not have normally been treated that way. Robert knew Ned had a bastard so they weren't trying to keep that a secret. And he doesn't resemble the Targaryen's, so they didn't have to worry that Robert would be suspicious that a possible heir had survived. He looks like a Stark, so there wasn't anything that would have pointed out to the average observer that he wasn't Ned's.

So, why was he worried? Maybe he thought Cersei would see a resemblance between Jon and Robert and get suspicious. She does have a nasty habit of killing Robert's children (although I'm not sure that was widely known at that point). Maybe he thought Robert would see a resemblance and get suspicious, which would again put Jon in danger from Cersei. Who knows, either way, there is some evidence pointing in this direction as well as the evidence pointing toward Rhaegar.

 

[cabanafrau]

Ummmmm......I didn't say I took the facebook theory as credible evidence, just put it out there as something funny that I read recently to explain why Dayne might have been there. There are all kinds of theories out there as to how the book will end and who Jon's father is. I saw another one recently that said the NIght King will turn out to be the good guy trying to save the world from Azor Ahai. Theories are fun, doesn't make them true or believable.

Tyrion is more of a gut feeling, no evidence whatsoever.

As far as the clues about Jon, there are also clues pointing the other direction. Yes, Rhaegar is the obvious choice for his father, but I think it will only be obvious until it isn't.

Personally, I think he's Robert Baratheon's (or one of the Baratheon's, who knows). Why else would Ned have kept him out of sight when Robert visited Winterfell? If I'm remembering correctly, at dinner the night that Jon and Tyrion are seated away from the main table, Jon is sulking a little at the insult, which implies that he might not have normally been treated that way. Robert knew Ned had a bastard so they weren't trying to keep that a secret. And he doesn't resemble the Targaryen's, so they didn't have to worry that Robert would be suspicious that a possible heir had survived. He looks like a Stark, so there wasn't anything that would have pointed out to the average observer that he wasn't Ned's.

So, why was he worried? Maybe he thought Cersei would see a resemblance between Jon and Robert and get suspicious. She does have a nasty habit of killing Robert's children (although I'm not sure that was widely known at that point). Maybe he thought Robert would see a resemblance and get suspicious, which would again put Jon in danger from Cersei. Who knows, either way, there is some evidence pointing in this direction as well as the evidence pointing toward Rhaegar.

It's equally plausible that Ned simply didn't want Jon to be any potential topic of discussion with Robert, the friend he grew up with, who knew him incredibly well in the very years where Ned is claiming to have fathered Jon. Who's to say Robert wouldn't notice something, anything, about the situation to set him down a path of speculating anything along the lines of Jon and Lyanna? Ned was so gun shy and tightlipped about Jon's origins he would not discuss it with Catelyn and I don't believe ever again saw his good friend Howland Reed ever again.

When it came to Jon Ned clearly didn't believe firewalls provided enough security. He disconnected any and all web access completely.

 

[Disney1fan2002]

Personally, I think he's Robert Baratheon's (or one of the Baratheon's, who knows). Why else would Ned have kept him out of sight when Robert visited Winterfell? If I'm remembering correctly, at dinner the night that Jon and Tyrion are seated away from the main table, Jon is sulking a little at the insult, which implies that he might not have normally been treated that way. Robert knew Ned had a bastard so they weren't trying to keep that a secret. And he doesn't resemble the Targaryen's, so they didn't have to worry that Robert would be suspicious that a possible heir had survived. He looks like a Stark, so there wasn't anything that would have pointed out to the average observer that he wasn't Ned's.

He was not kept out of sight during the Baratheon's visit to Winterfell. The conversation between Jon and Tyrion happened outside the welcome dinner. Jon was not permitted to attend that because Catelyn thought it would be an insult to the Queen to seat a bastard in her presence. (Frankly, just an excuse for Catelyn to exclude Jon )

 

[jaybirdsmommy]

He was not kept out of sight during the Baratheon's visit to Winterfell. The conversation between Jon and Tyrion happened outside the welcome dinner. Jon was not permitted to attend that because Catelyn thought it would be an insult to the Queen to seat a bastard in her presence. (Frankly, just an excuse for Catelyn to exclude Jon )

Oops, I stand corrected on where the conversation took place, it's been a while since I read the first book. I just remembered he wasn't at the main table and was a bit sulky about it and Tyrion was commiserating with him. Either way, as Cabanafrau pointed out, Ned kept Jon hidden. He didn't even trust his wife, who would have been a lot happier knowing Jon wasn't his. It will be interesting to find out why.