What do you consider a lot? Student debt?

[Pea-n-Me]

Yeah, but I think that in these conversations, anecdotes about a relative handful of people doing the latter - mostly in very comfortable upper middle class families - are used to ignore how much more common the former is because of large-scale changes in work, compensation and cost of living over the last couple generations.

Except that statistics don't bear this out. It IS harder now, factually speaking. Rents are higher relative to starting salaries and to median incomes. Wages have stagnated while costs have risen, particularly for education (student loans), housing and health insurance. These are facts, not situations created by spending too much on Starbucks and iPhones. I have no doubt that there are kids out there who just don't want to let go of the comfortable upper middle class lifestyle they having at mom & dad's house, but that doesn't change the fact that it is harder for those who do want to get launched to do so now.

If I'm reading this right, your daughter is a degreed professional with multiple jobs who still needs to have a roommate and can't afford her own insurance... how can you argue that isn't harder than it was for our generation? Several of my high school friends became teachers, and even straight out of college they could afford a decent studio or one-bedroom apartment, without roommates and without second jobs, and most were able to pay down student loans ahead of schedule or start saving a bit for future priorities.

some of us intimately know the people we speak of through personal interaction-they are our family members, neighbors and co-workers not someone we might interact w/ for a few hours in a volunteer setting (and frankly-none of the multiple universities and colleges around me offer or solicit any volunteer opportunities for non students), the community opportunities are there to serve the community not to afford someone volunteering a socialization or observation platform.




i get what you're saying but i'll just throw this out there-

i can only speak for myself (but it was a commonality among those i knew back in the late 80's/early 90's)-

my car note was close to $300 a month (according to the inflation calculators that's about $562 now),
i had rent, utilities, car/renters insurance, health insurance, union dues, food and incidentals. my union dues were about what my dd pays for her cell phone so it's kind of a wash there.

did i live 'comfortably'? well, it wasn't in squalor but it doesn't even come close to what even 20 year old apartments offer these days (no microwave, fridge from the 50's, no dishwasher, microscopic little cooktop/oven, no washer and dryer on the property, no parking lot let alone covered parking). i could have gotten all of that but i couldn't afford it b/c the jobs i was educated for were in the high cost san francisco bay area and i (and most of my peers) couldn't afford those rents so we went with what we could afford-and commuted 2 hours each way/5 days a week. many of us also had side jobs to make ends meet. retirement savings??? i know everyone today runs around saying if kids don't start saving for this in their 20's they are doomed-but we didn't, we couldn't (didn't know anyone who really did until at least early 30's)-and we were not doomed (currently retired-and much more comfortable than i was when first starting out).

i think the level of 'comfort' can be fluid-what i grew up with as comfort certainly wasn't what i walked into as an independent self supporting adult but i aspired to it and managed to raise the bar over time. my dd certainly isn't living at the level she lived in here at home but it's better than what either dh or i had out the gate so that's progress.


p.s. i can't begin to imagine over $200K in student loans for a bachelors unless it was b/c of personal choice. many have posted tuition rates and others have shown how those can be reduced through opting to live off campus, in multiple roommate situations, at home commuting (which i did) so for me, i feel there has to have been some kind of options there that for whatever reason the person(s) made their own choice(s) on resulting in that amount of debt. i also kind of wonder what kind of $200K degree has a career path where the norm is starting wages of $24K per year? again-personal choices, but i have to think they chose a degree where the income doesn't support the expense (and how does someone who makes $24K a year pay off $100K in 10 years, i can't wrap my mind around those numbers-they have to be getting other financial help/have much higher income).



p.p.s. student loan repayment rates can greatly differ-dd has some that are JUST coming due for starting repayment and at about $12K she's looking at less than $90 per month (w/the interest reduction for auto pay). she plans to pay more but it really depends on the source of the loan and what the rates were like at the point it was taken, some are very manageable.

I only have a minute right now, but by comfortable, I mean able to pay everything plus doing things we all say working folk should start early such as putting aside emergency savings, saving for retirement, starting college savings if children are involved, etc.

I quoted Colleen above because I think she hit the nail on the head with the bolded. Health care alone has jumped up in some cases 800% from what we paid when we were first done with school. You said you're in the San Francisco area - I don't have to tell you about housing! Where I am housing has taken off, too, not to mention cost of utilities, food, and everything else I can think of.

As for the $200,000 debt people, I never said their salaries were $24,000; in fact, their salaries are fairly healthy, probably in the $100,000-$150,000 range. Yet, still, they're having difficulty. People will probably say they're not managing things well. Idk, that could be. But the point is that none of us are perfect in how we manage things, but even for people who are relatively responsible, the pinch can be felt strongly when you start out each month $2000 behind the 8 ball, kwim?

 

[Colleen27]

some of us intimately know the people we speak of through personal interaction-they are our family members, neighbors and co-workers not someone we might interact w/ for a few hours in a volunteer setting (and frankly-none of the multiple universities and colleges around me offer or solicit any volunteer opportunities for non students), the community opportunities are there to serve the community not to afford someone volunteering a socialization or observation platform.

I think that's part of what drives this perception - the bubble we each live in, and the ways those bubbles shape our online experiences. From what I've read, the desire to live the high life at Mom & Dad's is a very middle/upper-middle class thing. I certainly haven't seen much of it around me, in my blue collar community. The young adults around me mostly can't wait to get out of their parents' homes. They're certainly not interested in staying until they're 30... but then again, they're not living in luxury at home, either.

I know two types of young people, mostly - those who didn't go to school and who moved out young, by 20 or so, even if it does take roommates or multiple jobs, and those who are living at home because of the costs of school (either tuition or student loans) and wishing they could move out but just can't make the numbers work. Living in the most expensive state in the country for car insurance doesn't help either; my son is paying almost $400/mo for legal-minimum coverage with a clean driving record.

 

[LSUmiss]

It starts much earlier than graduation. The current proliferation of single dorm rooms is a very good indicator. DH & I had words over that one: I wanted DS to learn to share a dorm room, and DH, who lived at home during college, thought that sharing a bedroom with a stranger was just barbaric. (We both grew up working-class, but in his home the 2 children got 2 of the three bedrooms, while in mine same-gender kids were expected to share, even if that left the third bedroom empty.) I not only shared a 12 x 12 dorm room for 2 years, but I shared a bedroom in a small rented house for another two after that. Grad school got me my own room, but it wasn't until I was working full-time at a professional job that I got my own place, and it was NOT deluxe. (In fact, you can see it: right after I moved out, the film Sex, Lies & Videotape was filmed there; it was James Spader's apartment.) The car that I got my final year in grad school (first one ever) was 12 yrs old; a Corolla coupe stick that had a drooping headliner (which I pinned in place with straight pins; I now absolutely shudder to think of what that would have done to my head if I'd ever rolled the car! But ... at the time, cosmetic repairs were not in the budget.) This was in the mid-80s, and I had a very strict budget. My limit for food was $40/month -- I ate a lot of rice. (Does anyone else remember the Ladies' Night buffets that bars used to provide in the 80's? Every Friday & Saturday in college, my roommates and I trotted out our best (and ONLY!) clubbing clothes so that we could get past the doormen and eat free.)

It isn't the specific ways that we scrimped that I want kids to emulate. It's that we did creative things to make ends meet and afford rent, in order to stay out from under our parents' thumbs, and our parents didn't want us at home any more than we wanted to be there. I really do not want our kids moving back in after college unless it is for a finite temporary period (like 3 months to save up needed deposits.) We actually live well below our means, so I don't expect they will want to, quite frankly -- this house is 85 years old and completely lacks any modern creature comforts that I see in so-called "starter" homes built in the last 3 decades -- for one thing, it's much smaller!

I think that’s exactly my point with it. Things were not “affordable” when I went to college either as some have said about housing & other costs now as an excuse to why kids can’t grow up. But, I did without & got by. My parents helped me with necessities when they could. In my old college town things have changed. The apartments I lived in & ones like them don’t exist anymore. They’re less “affordable”, but the old crappy color apartments have been replaced with luxury apartments & condos that include luxury amenities. Kids’ parents foot the bill for most of it. The “poor” college kid surviving on ramen noodles is an anomaly now & doesn’t really exist here.

 

[LSUmiss]

replies in bolded above are mine
Being offended just means you believe there may be some truth in those words.

I think it’s called being defensive.

 

[LSUmiss]

It's also quite interesting to note that the major reasons given for extended living with parents is student loan debt and the rising cost of housing.

There has been mention on some of the college threads that a piece of some family's college payment plans includes a recent graduate moving home for a year or so to pay off the debt gained to help fund college.

I just know that every young adult, I know personally, who still lives with parents does it due to those types of reasons, or because it's more of a cultural norm. They are all fully employed.

Right, but I think that’s the issue too. We were adults after college so we lived as such. Some of us had student loans & rents & other expenses to pay too, but we survived on our own & didn’t burden our parents with having to continue to support us. Housing wasn’t cheap when I was 22 either. But we had roommates & shared costs & lived where we could afford.

 

[Southernmiss]

But positive generalizations of a generation seem to be ok...e.g. ”The greatest generation”. Here’s how I see it. There are overgeneralizations b/c it IS a trend like the pp said & then enough of us have experienced ppl who fit in that generalization so makes it seem even more true. I do know some ppl who don’t fit it, but I see them as the exception. I don’t think I’d take it as an insult if I raised a child from a generation that had negative generalizations. If my child did not fit the mold, I’d be proud that they were an exception to the negative generalizations.

TBH. I don't even care for the term "the greatest generation". I have heard of negatives coming out of that era, too. So many cases of abuse and racism were "ok" to that generation.

I just don't care for generalizations as a whole to identify thousands or billions of people. As a society, we are growing away from so many of previous biases and I see the age thing as another bias yet to be overcome.

Like the song goes "Every generation blames the one before". And the generation before blames this generation for everything, too.

I would like to see us all just get along. Learn to accept the differences and try to understand where and why each is coming from the place that they do without adding a label to why they are different.

The young people I've worked with in the last 25 years have taught me so much about acceptance, not judging, etc. And that is what I have based my thoughts on.

 

[barkley]

by comfortable, I mean able to pay everything plus doing things we all say working folk should start early such as putting aside emergency savings, saving for retirement, starting college savings if children are involved, etc.

just b/c people say everyone should be doing something doesn't mean they are or even should be. recent studies show that about 40% of american adults don't have savings to cover so much as a $400 emergency and 25% have zero dollars in any form of retirement savings so while it's all well and good to say people should be including in their saving plans monies for their children's college education i personally think that's at about the lowest priority, and at the cost of non funding/short changing these same savings, financially supporting a f/t employed college grad just so that grad can save for a down payment for their first home or enter their first non collegiate independent living debt free seems an even more foolish idea.

before you think me totally heartless here's my reasoning-if mom/dad are short changing their retirement (or emergency) savings to save for/pay out of pocket for their kid's college costs what happens down the line when mom/dad have insufficient funds for their post retirement self subsistence? is it their expectation that their adult child is going to financially support THEM? if so i hope that they are forthcoming with that adult child about those plans NOW b/c then that adult child can start to make their own plans about they will manage to support themselves, any future children/partner as well as their parents.....sounds like a much bigger financial burden to that adult child than either opting from day one to pick a reasonably priced education or one that they can reasonably pay for over time.

i wasn't one of them but i grew up with WEALTHY classmates and i honestly didn't know a one whose parents full rided their college educations. those kids for the most part were working the same part time jobs the rest of us were, applying for scholarships and making decisions on where to apply to based on cost vs. value of a particular school for a particular degree. at our 10 year high school reunion it was a rare person who wasn't finishing up paying off some form of student loans and either just getting into or managing to save for the down payment on a starter home (no bells or whistles just something to get our feet wet and ideally move up from before we had our own kids) so i don't know when/where the whole everyone should be paying for their kid's college education started b/c at least on the west coast it wasn't prevalent in the 70's-90's.

You said you're in the San Francisco area - I don't have to tell you about housing! Where I am housing has taken off, too, not to mention cost of utilities, food, and everything else I can think of.

worked in the sf bay area-never lived there but commuted in for years (like the majority of my co-workers). got out california about a dozen years ago to a much lower cost of living area...where i have slowly become surrounded by other californians (our state motto should be 'leave your politics at the door-but be sure to bring your pension check').

 

[LSUmiss]

I think that's part of what drives this perception - the bubble we each live in, and the ways those bubbles shape our online experiences. From what I've read, the desire to live the high life at Mom & Dad's is a very middle/upper-middle class thing. I certainly haven't seen much of it around me, in my blue collar community. The young adults around me mostly can't wait to get out of their parents' homes. They're certainly not interested in staying until they're 30... but then again, they're not living in luxury at home, either.

I know two types of young people, mostly - those who didn't go to school and who moved out young, by 20 or so, even if it does take roommates or multiple jobs, and those who are living at home because of the costs of school (either tuition or student loans) and wishing they could move out but just can't make the numbers work. Living in the most expensive state in the country for car insurance doesn't help either; my son is paying almost $400/mo for legal-minimum coverage with a clean driving record.

Very good point. I have more experience with the upper middle class population & those kids I know are absolutely living the high life on their parents dime. And, while I generally don’t care what other ppl do, I think of this is widespread enough is will negatively affect our overall society.

 

[LSUmiss]

just b/c people say everyone should be doing something doesn't mean they are or even should be. recent studies show that about 40% of american adults don't have savings to cover so much as a $400 emergency and 25% have zero dollars in any form of retirement savings so while it's all well and good to say people should be including in their saving plans monies for their children's college education i personally think that's at about the lowest priority, and at the cost of non funding/short changing these same savings, financially supporting a f/t employed college grad just so that grad can save for a down payment for their first home or enter their first non collegiate independent living debt free seems an even more foolish idea.

before you think me totally heartless here's my reasoning-if mom/dad are short changing their retirement (or emergency) savings to save for/pay out of pocket for their kid's college costs what happens down the line when mom/dad have insufficient funds for their post retirement self subsistence? is it their expectation that their adult child is going to financially support THEM? if so i hope that they are forthcoming with that adult child about those plans NOW b/c then that adult child can start to make their own plans about they will manage to support themselves, any future children/partner as well as their parents.....sounds like a much bigger financial burden to that adult child than either opting from day one to pick a reasonably priced education or one that they can reasonably pay for over time.

i wasn't one of them but i grew up with WEALTHY classmates and i honestly didn't know a one whose parents full rided their college educations. those kids for the most part were working the same part time jobs the rest of us were, applying for scholarships and making decisions on where to apply to based on cost vs. value of a particular school for a particular degree. at our 10 year high school reunion it was a rare person who wasn't finishing up paying off some form of student loans and either just getting into or managing to save for the down payment on a starter home (no bells or whistles just something to get our feet wet and ideally move up from before we had our own kids) so i don't know when/where the whole everyone should be paying for their kid's college education started b/c at least on the west coast it wasn't prevalent in the 70's-90's.



worked in the sf bay area-never lived there but commuted in for years (like the majority of my co-workers). got out california about a dozen years ago to a much lower cost of living area...where i have slowly become surrounded by other californians (our state motto should be 'leave your politics at the door-but be sure to bring your pension check').

I think this is my point. I would never have even dreamed of living with my parents to “save $” well into adulthood for my own personal benefit at their expense. And I don’t think it’s only wealthy kids doing that now.

 

[barkley]

I think this is my point. I would never have even dreamed of living with my parents to “save $” well into adulthood for my own personal benefit at their expense. And I don’t think it’s only wealthy kids doing that now.

it's definitely not. it's becoming more common so it's becoming less stigmatized and it leads to becoming more of a norm.

i lived w/my mom till my late 20's but it was mutually beneficial. dad passed unexpectedly when i was 19 so beyond not being able to financially help w/college mom's income decreased so it made total financial sense for both of us for me to decrease my college expenses by becoming a commuter student and contributing to the household expenses. it was far less expensive for me (and i could keep my part-time jobs) and it saved mom money as well (contribution to household expenses/decreased insurance for multi-car...). i never would have dreamed of doing it at her financial well being or expense (in the moment or in the future).


that said-i've had the experience with the adult children of family members who were rudely surprised at the state of their late parent's finances (they were counting on inheriting money never imagining their parents had debt up to their eyeballs). they were outright disdainful and can't fathom how their parents didn't have monies socked away to pass on, they just took it as a given-never giving a moment of thought to how their middle wage parents paid for their/siblings private k-12 school, summer camps, weddings, donated to every extra curricular/travel opportunity of the grand kids, helped them out with 'loans' (never repaid)...it was just luck that the parents passed before they needed long term care and the chunk of change that calls for came knocking at the door. i guess with some if limitations are never placed it creates the impression that limitations do not exist.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

just b/c people say everyone should be doing something doesn't mean they are or even should be. recent studies show that about 40% of american adults don't have savings to cover so much as a $400 emergency and 25% have zero dollars in any form of retirement savings

This may be true but even if so, it doesn't mean that it isn't something people should aspire to in order to have (or in this case, begin) a healthy financial life. How many people are criticized because they have zero college savings for their children, or little retirement savings for themselves - doesn't it help start the cycle of some of the things we're talking about here? Getting a very late start because you're making loan payments and can't afford these things has led to postponement and even unattainment of the American Dream (i.e. Putting off purchasing a home or other goods, starting a family, planning for the future, etc.) Of course if you don't have it, you can't save or spend it.

https://blog.scholarshipamerica.org/bid/379038/The-Far-Reaching-Impact-of-the-Student-Debt-Crisis

"Student Debt Hits Middle Class Students Hard

Overall, we know that students from low-income backgrounds still face the greatest struggle when it comes to earning college degrees. Unstable home lives, lower-quality high schools and other frequent corollaries of low-income neighborhoods present plenty of obstacles even before loan debt becomes an issue.

For students from middle-class backgrounds, the road to a degree seems easier. Their families often have money saved; their schools and support systems tend to prepare them well for the next step. Nevertheless, we’ve learned in the past year that middle-class students actually shoulder more student loan debt than anyone after graduating. According to Dartmouth sociology professor Jason Houle’s study,

“‘Children from middle-income families make too much money to qualify for student aid packages, but they do not have the financial means to cover the costs of college’ … The study found that students from families earning between $40,000 to $59,000 per year racked up 60 percent more debt than lower-income students and 280 percent more than their peers whose families earned between $100,000 and $149,000 per year. A similar trend held for more affluent middle-income families earning up to $99,000 annually.”

Loan Debt Is an Economic Drag

When graduates looking for their first post-college job are already $30,000 in debt, the negative effect on the economy is considerable.

Despite their qualifications, grads often have to settle for lower-paying, lower-skill jobs just so they can start paying their loan bills right away. As a result, graduates in debt often miss out on the benefits that come with a degree. ProgressNow found that students with outstanding loan payments were 36 percent less likely to purchase a house, and other research indicates that “Those with student loan debt also are less likely to have taken out car loans. They have worse credit scores. They appear to be more likely to be living with their parents.”

Defaults and delinquencies are also more common with student loan debt than just about any other kind. While credit card default rates have dropped under 10 percent thanks to stricter borrowing guidelines, the rate of student loans in “serious delinquency” has gone up to 11.5 percent. What’s worse, according to Rohit Chopra of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, is that many of these borrowers aren’t even graduating. “This [statistic] suggests that borrowers who default are overwhelmingly noncompleters … These borrowers take on some debt but do not benefit from the wage increase associated with a degree.”


Last but not least, the prospect of such overwhelming debt is making an increasing number of students, especially low-income students, think twice about attending college at all -- a decision that will compound the already-impending shortage of educated employees facing the U.S. workforce."

 

[disykat]

so i don't know when/where the whole everyone should be paying for their kid's college education started b/c at least on the west coast it wasn't prevalent in the 70's-90's.
.

I am on the West Coast and went to college in 1979. Most people I knew were at least partially funded by their parents. The kids I knew who didn't have either parental or scholarship help either worked their way through or simply did not go away to school. Taking out loans for the entire thing just wasn't done. Sure I knew people with student loans, but I didn't know anyone who was devastated by the amounts afterwards. ( probably similar to those who take out federal loans now vs. those who take out much larger private loans.)

We didn't discuss student loans. I honestly can't think if I knew about whether my friends had loans. We did certainly have people just starting to settle down by the 10th reunion, including myself, but that didn't seem abnormal. It was pretty much the norm.

My dad, who was a doctor btw, bought his first home at 35. I bought mine at 30. My son bought his at 24. Part of it is the marketplace, but much of it is expectations of having everything earlier. Also, each generation has benefitted from the success of the last and that leg up makes a difference.

For my dad, parental help wasn't an option. It wasn't for most of his generation in the post depression, post war years. Dad's generation wanted to help their kids because they knew how hard it was. Not give them a free ride, help them. Somehow now, the balance is getting lost. Some kids get a free ride from their parents, others get sent off on their own with no help.

 

[NotUrsula]

That's not necessarily a good indicator.

For example in the dorms I lived in the singles were in the basement where the laundry room was. There weren't many of those rooms at all. But you could pay to have a double as a single occupancy. I did that my freshman year and I loved it. It was one of the best decisions I ever made for my freshman year. Oh I still had the communal bathrooms, my room was the first one located by the door nearest to the elevator so I still had plenty of activity around me, etc. I just really didn't like the single rooms. I felt like I was in a dark dank prison since there was a very small window that let in natural light.

I did live in a 4 person (2 room) dorm my sophomore year and my junior and senior years were spent in a 3 person (4 room) apartment.

I meant the number of them available (including the option of paying to live single in a room built as a double.) Thirty years ago, most schools offered fewer than 5% of housing stock as singles, and what they did have was not available to freshmen at all, no matter how much money they waved around. Now the rate is closer to 30%, and even exceeds 50% in quite a few of the buildings built after 2010. I have a relative who works for one of the largest student-housing management companies in the US, and she tells me that most new construction being planned now is all single bedroom, though arranging those bedrooms in common suites where roommates share bathrooms is still common.

Residence-life professionals will tell you that they don't like singles for freshmen because having them share increases safety. Newly away from home, shared rooms mean that they interact with more people on a daily basis, which helps alert others more quickly if they start to have serious problems.

PS: Someone asked when it became a given that parents would finance college to some degree? Easy answer is 1991, when the Federal government redefined what an "independent" student was and made it VERY difficult to be one if you are younger than 24. When I was in school I used to have to go to the aid office every year and appeal my award because they THOUGHT that I must have been lying about my mother's income level and assets: I wasn't. (I remember one counselor suggesting that Mom trade in her car and get a cheaper one -- neat trick when she didn't own one at all!) I wasn't a dependent on her taxes because she didn't make enough to have to file taxes. Her inability to give me a dime made me an independent student. However, had I been in school 10 years later that would not have made a difference, because the laws were changed in 1991 so that (barring things like homelessness or having your own child at that age, if you do have a living parent, then that parent is assumed to be supporting you, no matter how much evidence you can show to the contrary. (There are technically 5 exceptions,but I don't feel ilke I need to spell them out here.)

 

[mousefan73]

PS: Someone asked when it became a given that parents would finance college to some degree? Easy answer is 1991, when the Federal government redefined what an "independent" student was and made it VERY difficult to be one if you are younger than 24. When I was in school I used to have to go to the aid office every year and appeal my award because they THOUGHT that I must have been lying about my mother's income level and assets: I wasn't. (I remember one counselor suggesting that Mom trade in her car and get a cheaper one -- neat trick when she didn't own one at all!) I wasn't a dependent on her taxes because she didn't make enough to have to file taxes. Her inability to give me a dime made me an independent student. However, had I been in school 10 years later that would not have made a difference, because the laws were changed in 1991 so that (barring things like homelessness or having your own child at that age, if you do have a living parent, then that parent is assumed to be supporting you, no matter how much evidence you can show to the contrary. (There are technically 5 exceptions,but I don't feel ilke I need to spell them out here.)

If you claim your college student as a tax write off, you better be supporting them in some way. I am talking food and shelter.


Your statement brings up what happened to me. School assumed my dad was supporting me. He was not. My parents divorced my freshman year of college and my dad was not able or wouldnt pay for my school; where it got messy was living expenses. At this time I wasnt really speaking to him ( my mother was supportive as much as she could and she really made sacrifices). I called him when things were desperate and asked for living expenses; as at this point I could not afford food. So his girlfriend decided to get all "motherly" and instead of sending me the cash I desperately needed for food and other important things like electric bills; she sent me a care package of ridiculous things like velvetta cheese, expensive mac and cheese, cereal and 10 bucks for "perishables; I could have spent less for a lot less).. My dad was not in such a bad financial situation where he couldnt afford to send me a check for 200 or so.

My financial aid lady implied I had a legal case as my dad was claiming me as a dependent on his taxes but not supporting me. I never follow-up on this. But I just made me more upset and angry at him.

Though student jobs, my mom scrapping, my awesome grandparents, and about 20,000 in pell grants I was able to get a BS . took me 10 years to pay off.. I think my monthly payments were between 150 and 200 max..
I would tell anyone who does loans to think in monthly terms... How much of my living expenses can I afford a month.

and to look at the big picture.. my cousin has over 100 grand in debt and works for non-profit and makes like 35-45 a year and is swallowing in debt.. other cousin never went to college, learned welding as a trade.. he now does site inspections for welding and makes 100,000 a year.... I view college as an investment. you need to do the ROI.


My roommate had super wealthy parents. she didnt work during school, did summer jobs for life experience but IMO was not spoiled by it.. She had a budget and used it wisely.Not all kids who get a full ride by parents are living the spoiled life..

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Someone here on the Dis posted this article back in 2011, around the time we were beginning to think about college for our kids. I can't remember who it was, but I am grateful that it was here at that time, because it, along with talking to a lot of the young graduates I work with, helped us to understand what life could be like today taking on a lot of student loan debt. So I'll post it here for anyone else who might be thinking along those lines, too. I'll also add that COL has risen a lot since this article was written.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jenna-levine/jenna-levine-26-graduate-_b_823081.html

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Getting a very late start because you're making loan payments and can't afford these things has led to postponement and even unattainment of the American Dream (i.e. Putting off purchasing a home or other goods, starting a family, planning for the future, etc.) Of course if you don't have it, you can't save or spend it.

But I think even that's a generalization. I do think there are some truths to it but I also think that it can be because of some factors/choices made. Also people have been delaying marriage as well as starting a family (or having less kids) due to shifting societal norms and desires so it's not necessarily a large enough impact for cause and effect of student loans.

Our society, like it or not, runs on credit scores and history. One of the biggest reasons I've seen people around me be unable to do things in life is because their credit history. And no I'm not meaning just their credit score. I'm also meaning their history.

Depsite having debit (though it was my only debt) being student loans I had a very good credit score. Why? Because I had a credit card just after I was 18 years old. I used it responsibly (heck my bank said you don't use it enough and kept increasing my limit lol) and it helped me build that credit history. My husband also had a very good credit score with a student loan and a car payment with a tiny bit on a credit card (used for airline miles). He also had a credit card at 18. We signed paperwork for our new house when I was 25 (my husband 24) and the house was complete (so another credit check) 7 months later when I was 26 (my husband 25). Now could I have gotten a house on my own? Yeah but it wouldn't have been the same type on my income.

But my sister-in-law got denied for a car loan on her own even though she made more money than my husband working for GM with student loans as well strictly because she lacked credit history. She didn't get a credit card until her early 20s. It took more time before they would approve her. My other friend didn't get a credit card until he was 24 and holy moly can he not do anything really forget a house and his parents paid for all of his college in a private college.

I'm not discounting that having student loan payments, especially a high amount, hinders you but it's not the full story nor is it always the reason.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I meant the number of them available (including the option of paying to live single in a room built as a double.) Thirty years ago, most schools offered fewer than 5% of housing stock as singles, and what they did have was not available to freshmen at all, no matter how much money they waved around. Now the rate is closer to 30%, and even exceeds 50% in quite a few of the buildings built after 2010. I have a relative who works for one of the largest student-housing management companies in the US, and she tells me that most new construction being planned now is all single bedroom, though arranging those bedrooms in common suites where roommates share bathrooms is still common.

Ah ok I gotcha

Residence-life professionals will tell you that they don't like singles for freshmen because having them share increases safety. Newly away from home, shared rooms mean that they interact with more people on a daily basis, which helps alert others more quickly if they start to have serious problems.

That must depend on where you go and how the dorms are set up. I know many roommates over the college years that rarely saw their other roommate(s) for one reason or another (busy with school, 'living' with a boyfriend or girlfriend, one or more roommate is a partier and one or more roommate is not, etc) . I think interactions in general are important not necessarily physically living with another person.

PS: Someone asked when it became a given that parents would finance college to some degree? Easy answer is 1991, when the Federal government redefined what an "independent" student was and made it VERY difficult to be one if you are younger than 24. When I was in school I used to have to go to the aid office every year and appeal my award because they THOUGHT that I must have been lying about my mother's income level and assets: I wasn't. (I remember one counselor suggesting that Mom trade in her car and get a cheaper one -- neat trick when she didn't own one at all!) I wasn't a dependent on her taxes because she didn't make enough to have to file taxes. Her inability to give me a dime made me an independent student. However, had I been in school 10 years later that would not have made a difference, because the laws were changed in 1991 so that (barring things like homelessness or having your own child at that age, if you do have a living parent, then that parent is assumed to be supporting you, no matter how much evidence you can show to the contrary. (There are technically 5 exceptions,but I don't feel ilke I need to spell them out here.)

Yeah I think that part sucked. I knew for quite a while that financially my mom couldn't support me at college. I claimed myself on taxes but I was considered a dependent for FAFSA. It sucked. And so I took out loans to cover the leftover cost for my freshman and sophmore year as my junior and senior year I had excess financial aid. I so wish there was a way to reflect that you're on your own for finances when it comes to FAFSA.

 

[mjkacmom]

I think that’s exactly my point with it. Things were not “affordable” when I went to college either as some have said about housing & other costs now as an excuse to why kids can’t grow up. But, I did without & got by. My parents helped me with necessities when they could. In my old college town things have changed. The apartments I lived in & ones like them don’t exist anymore. They’re less “affordable”, but the old crappy color apartments have been replaced with luxury apartments & condos that include luxury amenities. Kids’ parents foot the bill for most of it. The “poor” college kid surviving on ramen noodles is an anomaly now & doesn’t really exist here.

My DH graduated from college with no debt, his 4 years of college (living off campus but paying rent) cost less than $40,000. That same exact experience for Dd (same college) cost over $100,000. After college, I moved into a very small apartment and paid $650 in rent. That same apartment rents for over $1000 today. I honestly don’t remember paying for health insurance, and my co-pays were $5. Bird of a feather flock together I guess, but dd22 and ds20 live VERY frugally (both of tbeir iPhones are 4+ years old, dd’s car is 9 years old, ds’s is 21 years old). Ds pays $500 a month to live in what is basically a closet in the basement of his frat house, works 2 jobs and is a full time student. Their friends live similar lives, I had it SO much easier! When they lived in dorms, they were worse than mine, because they were exactly the same dorms, only 30 years older. Ds is still eating ramen, Dd can’t even look at it anymore, although she eats almost everything else, because, according to her, there is no picky with poor.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

But I think even that's a generalization. I do think there are some truths to it but I also think that it can be because of some factors/choices made. Also people have been delaying marriage as well as starting a family (or having less kids) due to shifting societal norms and desires so it's not necessarily a large enough impact for cause and effect of student loans.

Our society, like it or not, runs on credit scores and history. One of the biggest reasons I've seen people around me be unable to do things in life is because their credit history. And no I'm not meaning just their credit score. I'm also meaning their history.

Depsite having debit (though it was my only debt) being student loans I had a very good credit score. Why? Because I had a credit card just after I was 18 years old. I used it responsibly (heck my bank said you don't use it enough and kept increasing my limit lol) and it helped me build that credit history. My husband also had a very good credit score with a student loan and a car payment with a tiny bit on a credit card (used for airline miles). He also had a credit card at 18. We signed paperwork for our new house when I was 25 (my husband 24) and the house was complete (so another credit check) 7 months later when I was 26 (my husband 25). Now could I have gotten a house on my own? Yeah but it wouldn't have been the same type on my income.

But my sister-in-law got denied for a car loan on her own even though she made more money than my husband working for GM with student loans as well strictly because she lacked credit history. She didn't get a credit card until her early 20s. It took more time before they would approve her. My other friend didn't get a credit card until he was 24 and holy moly can he not do anything really forget a house and his parents paid for all of his college in a private college.

I'm not discounting that having student loan payments, especially a high amount, hinders you but it's not the full story nor is it always the reason.

Your point is taken, but from everything I've read, it seems to be more than a generalization:

https://www.cpapracticeadvisor.com/...lays-homeownership-for-millennials-by-7-years

 

[disneydentist]

Ugh, Don't tell me that...My oldest wants to be an orthodontist and those amounts are just insane. At first she wanted theatre and I talked her out of it because let's face it spending thousands on a theatre major is a joke. Now she is leaning towards orthodontist because loves chemistry and biology.

And, unfortunately, a specialist will be in the higher end of the range thanks to the extra time for their residency. The cost of becoming a dentist has contributed greatly to the shift of dentistry from a "Mom and Pop" business to a corporate one. The current levels of student debt force many new graduates into becoming employees of a practice rather than owners, at least in the short to medium term. Ownership often becomes a mid-life option with that debt carried even later in life.