X Atencio famous Disney Imagineer has passed away

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm trying to not get rolling on this...

...but the simple truth is that joe rohde destroys budgets...like a plague of locusts.

We can write a book on how that has hurt parks...to this day...frivolity with public money leading to nearly irreversible problems.

That's a failure...he's in a business, not Rodin's sculpture studio...it's part of the job.

 

[rteetz]

I think Joe Rohde is incredible. I just wish he wasn't in charge. I think he's gone "all in" on ambience, and I don't think that is what Disney customers really want. Disney theme park customers want good, themed, innovative rides. It's why people come. Magic Kingdom is the most popular park not because people like to look at the architecture of Pinocchio Brahaus, but because they want to go on Peter Pan. The theming of the exterior of Haunted House is great, but the ride is better. NFL has almost no ambiance, but people jam it up for Mine Train and Little Mermaid and Dumbo.

And then we come to Joe Rohde projects. Animal Kingdom is gorgeous. One of the most beautiful theme parks anywhere. But it's a massive attendance laggard because it had, for years, 3 interesting rides and whatever you want to call Khali River Rapids and the kiddie carnival. Now you can add 2(?) more, but again, the money in Pandora was spent making the beautiful scenery, while the rides got cut from 3 to 2, then to 1.5, then to 1.5 with a single animatronic.

I love Joe Rohde. He does beautiful work. Let him design hotels and restaurants and give him a no break budget for expansions for the ambience. But for the love of all that is special and holy about Disney Parks, let someone else have the majority of the budget to design killer rides. It's really why people are paying the money.

And for those that point out Everest, I agree he did excellent work. It's a beautiful ride and was truly awesome when the Yeti worked. I'm not willing to blame the broken Yeti on Rohde, but I am willing to say that it was a very specific project. Add a rollercoaster to AK. Again, it goes along the lines of Rohde not being in charge. Give him a specific goal, a specific unbreakable budget, and tell him what needs to happen and the work is great. Allow him to roam free and you get Disney videos about Imagineers trekking across Nepal, parks without attractions, beautiful buildings like those along the Asian trail, and parks with limited attendance.

Imagineers often in today's Disney have to do exactly what the execs want. Joe is an artist through and through. Animal Kingdom and its details are all due to him and frankly it is why I love that park so much. People today want and immersive experience with good attractions. I think Pandora did just that.

Magic Kingdom will always be the most popular park. It is the oldest and most recognizable. When people think of WDW they think of that park.

I just don't see how you can blame Joe on rides. He often doesn't get to choose what goes in the parks, he is just told to make it happen. Take GOTG in DCA for example. He was told to turn ToT into a Marvel attraction and given a specific budget. There isn't always a ton you can do.

Pandora IMO is a great mix of ambiance/immersive theming and great rides. Flight of Passage is currently the highest rated WDW attraction.

Not every park can be the Magic Kingdom and/or have Magic Kingdom attendance.

 

[rteetz]

I'm trying to not get rolling on this...

...but the simple truth is that joe rohde destroys budgets...like a plague of locusts.

We can write a book on how that has hurt parks...to this day...frivolity with public money leading to nearly irreversible problems.

That's a failure...he's in a business, not Rodin's sculpture studio...it's part of the job.

It is not just Rohde all Imagineers have a budget problem and they have for a long time. A land like Toy Story should not cost between 200-300 million like it is.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

It is not just Rohde all Imagineers have a budget problem and they have for a long time. A land like Toy Story should not cost between 200-300 million like it is.

Then they're all failing.

The only way you get money for "art" at Disney with the management moving forward will be to have a track record of producing sound operational investments on budget...

...or basically...the opposite of Joe.

Here's the telling questions:
1. What was the stated budget of animal kingdom?
2. How much was actually spent?

 

[jknezek]

Imagineers often in today's Disney have to do exactly what the execs want. Joe is an artist through and through. Animal Kingdom and its details are all due to him and frankly it is why I love that park so much. People today want and immersive experience with good attractions. I think Pandora did just that.

Magic Kingdom will always be the most popular park. It is the oldest and most recognizable. When people think of WDW they think of that park.

I just don't see how you can blame Joe on rides. He often doesn't get to choose what goes in the parks, he is just told to make it happen. Take GOTG in DCA for example. He was told to turn ToT into a Marvel attraction and given a specific budget. There isn't always a ton you can do.

Pandora IMO is a great mix of ambiance/immersive theming and great rides. Flight of Passage is currently the highest rated WDW attraction.

Not every park can be the Magic Kingdom and/or have Magic Kingdom attendance.

You think he doesn't sit in on those meetings? You think he isn't given creative input over the budget? Of course he is. He is in charge of Animal Kingdom for creative purposes. There is no way he doesn't sit in on the meeting where they cut a ride from Pandora because the budget for floating rocks was out of control. That is absolutely on him from what we know of his job description. And why does MK have the classic rides? Because they built the rides in the first place, something AK never did.

No all the parks aren't and shouldn't be MK, but Disney should have learned over many years where their bread is buttered. It's buttered with rides. It always has been. They just don't want to admit it because rides are expensive and don't make money the way themed restaurants and upcharge events do. If you added quality rides to AK, attendance would go up. If you add another beautifully themed Asian wildlife trail, we all know the attendance needle won't move.

FoP is the highest rated ride in WDW right now? Awesome. I can't wait to go on it. It still would be the highest rated attraction with one fewer floating mountain and a longer River Ride with more animatronics and another ride beside. The difference is, there would be more for people to do and more to draw people in.

True Disneyphiles will love the scenery and ambience of Pandora. I certainly will. But most people aren't Disneyphiles. The bills are paid by people coming to do creative rides, and that is why the other parks drastically lag. Yes, MK will always be the top of the heap, but the other parks could and should do better. They don't because they have lagged in rides, and the focus on immersion, while interesting in terms of Harry Potter and Star Wars, isn't going to move the needle for Pandora and Toy Story long term.

One size does not fit all expansions, regardless of what Disney wishes we would believe.

 

[rteetz]

You think he doesn't sit in on those meetings? You think he isn't given creative input over the budget? Of course he is. He is in charge of Animal Kingdom for creative purposes. There is no way he doesn't sit in on the meeting where they cut a ride from Pandora because the budget for floating rocks was out of control. That is absolutely on him from what we know of his job description. And why does MK have the classic rides? Because they built the rides in the first place, something AK never did.

No all the parks aren't and shouldn't be MK, but Disney should have learned over many years where their bread is buttered. It's buttered with rides. It always has been. They just don't want to admit it because rides are expensive and don't make money the way themed restaurants and upcharge events do. If you added quality rides to AK, attendance would go up. If you add another beautifully themed Asian wildlife trail, we all know the attendance needle won't move.

FoP is the highest rated ride in WDW right now? Awesome. I can't wait to go on it. It still would be the highest rated attraction with one fewer floating mountain and a longer River Ride with more animatronics and another ride beside. The difference is, there would be more for people to do and more to draw people in.

True Disneyphiles will love the scenery and ambience of Pandora. I certainly will. But most people aren't Disneyphiles. The bills are paid by people coming to do creative rides, and that is why the other parks drastically lag. Yes, MK will always be the top of the heap, but the other parks could and should do better. They don't because they have lagged in rides, and the focus on immersion, while interesting in terms of Harry Potter and Star Wars, isn't going to move the needle for Pandora and Toy Story long term.

One size does not fit all expansions, regardless of what Disney wishes we would believe.

The third Pandora ride was cut extremely early and you and I can't confirm it was due to the floating mountains.

Who said anything about Joe sitting in on meetings? Sure he is in the meetings but he doesn't set budgets.

AK isn't even 20 years old. You can hardly have classic attractions in that time frame. AK isn't about rides it's about experiences and finding your own way through an animal driven park. That is clearly different than MK. General guests just want as many rides they can get. That's not what it is all about. AK will never be that park.

So one ride would draw more people? I find that hard to believe. If theses two rides didn't draw the people how would a third do it?

Disney "lands" have never been about number of rides. Star Wars only has two. Toy story two, Pandora two, Potter has three with both lands combined, Cars is the outlier with 3. People don't go to these lands specifically for rides they go to be put in the place they have grown to love through film. Pandora wasn't exactly the draw because of the IP not because the rides aren't good.

 

[jknezek]

The third Pandora ride was cut extremely early and you and I can't confirm it was due to the floating mountains.

Of course not. But if you've worked in corporate America you know how budgets work. You can either have A or B, but not both. At some point, there was a decision to spend on immersion and to not spend on rides. That is common sense.

Who said anything about Joe sitting in on meetings? Sure he is in the meetings but he doesn't set budgets.

Set them? Maybe not. Prioritize creative projects within the budget? Probably so.

AK isn't even 20 years old. You can hardly have classic attractions in that time frame. AK isn't about rides it's about experiences and finding your own way through an animal driven park. That is clearly different than MK. General guests just want as many rides they can get. That's not what it is all about. AK will never be that park.

MK opened in '73. By '93 there certainly were classic rides. That's a crazy statement. Agree the parks are different and should be. Again, the point is we know they want attendance up at the ancillary parks. It's been a goal for a while. They just haven't seemed to want to spend on the obvious way to do it. I'm not advocating pulling out the Animal Kingdom trails. I love them. But there is no reason for the paucity of rides. Every survey of Disney guests will tell them the same thing. Add rides to bring in more people. Add rides to make it a full day park for more people. If it's full day, more people will stay to eat and buy memorabilia. This isn't rocket science.

So one ride would draw more people? I find that hard to believe. If theses two rides didn't draw the people how would a third do it?

Depends on the quality of the ride. FoP is certainly expected to draw people. Everest drew people. Rides draw people. The Asian trail doesn't draw people. It really is that simple.

Disney "lands" have never been about number of rides. Star Wars only has two. Toy story two, Pandora two, Potter has three with both lands combined, Cars is the outlier with 3. People don't go to these lands specifically for rides they go to be put in the place they have grown to love through film. Pandora wasn't exactly the draw because of the IP not because the rides aren't good

More rides more people. More people more money spent. You can't get away from this relationship. It remains to be scene if money spent on immersion brings in more people. I suspect that in all but a very few IPs like SW and HP, you are better off spending your money on a ride than on a background. See NFL. And that is the rub and the problem I have with Rohde.

I love his work. But I suspect the vast majority of Disney visitors feel differently from me and you. And Disney needs the vast majority more than it needs the few diehards. Build rides, spend less on immersion, make more people happy, happy people spend more.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

You think he doesn't sit in on those meetings? You think he isn't given creative input over the budget? Of course he is. He is in charge of Animal Kingdom for creative purposes. There is no way he doesn't sit in on the meeting where they cut a ride from Pandora because the budget for floating rocks was out of control. That is absolutely on him from what we know of his job description. And why does MK have the classic rides? Because they built the rides in the first place, something AK never did.

No all the parks aren't and shouldn't be MK, but Disney should have learned over many years where their bread is buttered. It's buttered with rides. It always has been. They just don't want to admit it because rides are expensive and don't make money the way themed restaurants and upcharge events do. If you added quality rides to AK, attendance would go up. If you add another beautifully themed Asian wildlife trail, we all know the attendance needle won't move.

FoP is the highest rated ride in WDW right now? Awesome. I can't wait to go on it. It still would be the highest rated attraction with one fewer floating mountain and a longer River Ride with more animatronics and another ride beside. The difference is, there would be more for people to do and more to draw people in.

True Disneyphiles will love the scenery and ambience of Pandora. I certainly will. But most people aren't Disneyphiles. The bills are paid by people coming to do creative rides, and that is why the other parks drastically lag. Yes, MK will always be the top of the heap, but the other parks could and should do better. They don't because they have lagged in rides, and the focus on immersion, while interesting in terms of Harry Potter and Star Wars, isn't going to move the needle for Pandora and Toy Story long term.

One size does not fit all expansions, regardless of what Disney wishes we would believe.

I actually agree with a lot if this - but the one thing I will say is that one of my favorite things about WDW is that all the parks are different. If it was just 4 parks with a bunch of rides and were all similar, I think collectively it would be lesser than what they have. I love Animal Kingdom and could just wander it for hours - and I know I am not alone in that. Now, I know a lot of other people disagree and for them there is MK if all they want is rides

Would it have been awesome if Pnadora had more rides? Sure, but the goal was a highly themed land that made you feel like you were on Pandora and they achieved that ... plus they still have the expansion pad for a third attraction. I do think cutting the length of the river journey was a mistake as you got a lot of complaints about that vs having 2 rides with amazingly positive reaction.

The one area I do think they should have gone for more rides is Toy Story Land .. they could have fit some more smaller rides in there - rides that would take time for kids to go on and wait for, etc. and just increase overall capacity in the park. SW:GE is a bit of wait and see for me as they are promising a lot of interaction in the land itself with elements to interact with (possible via using the Force) and CMs playing roles, etc. Now, how well that will all work when you can't even move due to crowd levels, we shall see

 

[rteetz]

Of course not. But if you've worked in corporate America you know how budgets work. You can either have A or B, but not both. At some point, there was a decision to spend on immersion and to not spend on rides. That is common sense.

I have not worked in corporate America yet but will likely end up doing so. In today's theme park world immersion is what the goal is. It started with Potter, then Carsland, now Pandora, and Star Wars, next is Nintendo. Being put in the fictional world you grew up to love is what people seem to want.

MK opened in '73. By '93 there certainly were classic rides. That's a crazy statement. Agree the parks are different and should be. Again, the point is we know they want attendance up at the ancillary parks. It's been a goal for a while. They just haven't seemed to want to spend on the obvious way to do it. I'm not advocating pulling out the Animal Kingdom trails. I love them. But there is no reason for the paucity of rides. Every survey of Disney guests will tell them the same thing. Add rides to bring in more people. Add rides to make it a full day park for more people. If it's full day, more people will stay to eat and buy memorabilia. This isn't rocket science.

Of course it is a goal but a classic ride like Peter Pan doesn't work in a park like AK. AK just added two rides and it didn't draw as many people as they hoped. I think it did help move AK up the attendance ladder but not the major crowds they were expecting. I think its not just the rides that play a role in that. You have to look at the IP draw. Avatar is not a hugely drawing, nostalgic connected IP. You also have to look at money. Disney is incredibly expensive now, attendance hasn't been climbing at any of the parks like it used to.

More rides more people. More people more money spent. You can't get away from this relationship. It remains to be scene if money spent on immersion brings in more people. I suspect that in all but a very few IPs like SW and HP, you are better off spending your money on a ride than on a background. See NFL. And that is the rub and the problem I have with Rohde.

I love his work. But I suspect the vast majority of Disney visitors feel differently from me and you. And Disney needs the vast majority more than it needs the few diehards. Build rides, spend less on immersion, make more people happy, happy people spend more.

AK added two rides but the people still didn't come like expected. There is more to this puzzle than adding rides, IP and people's vacation dollars also play a major role. Again today's theme parks are all about immersion. People see Potter and want more of that.

 

[rteetz]

Would it have been awesome if Pandora had more rides? Sure, but the goal was a highly themed land that made you feel like you were on Pandora and they achieved that ... plus they still have the expansion pad for a third attraction. I do think cutting the length of the river journey was a mistake as you got a lot of complaints about that vs having 2 rides with amazingly positive reaction.

The one area I do think they should have gone for more rides is Toy Story Land .. they could have fit some more smaller rides in there - rides that would take time for kids to go on and wait for, etc. and just increase overall capacity in the park. SW:GE is a bit of wait and see for me as they are promising a lot of interaction in the land itself with elements to interact with (possible via using the Force) and CMs playing roles, etc. Now, how well that will all work when you can't even move due to crowd levels, we shall see

Agreed. Pandora's goal was to put you on the planet of Pandora. NRJ should definitely be longer and more involved but at this point it is what it is.

Toy Story Land should definitely have more and this is why I hate people blaming Joe Rohde for things because it isn't just him, it is Imagineering as a whole.

 

[Redcon1]

When we visited Pandora in July, I didn't feel I was actually IN Pandora, just a land based on it.
It didn't really feel much more immersive than say Asia. Maybe it's just not a large enough space for me to become fully absorbed by the area, which is supposed to be on another world and not just a few steps away from one of our planet's continents.

I still think the most immersive area in WDW is Africa at AK. But then, that could be just because of the heat.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Agreed. Pandora's goal was to put you on the planet of Pandora. NRJ should definitely be longer and more involved but at this point it is what it is.

Toy Story Land should definitely have more and this is why I hate people blaming Joe Rohde for things because it isn't just him, it is Imagineering as a whole.

Neither of those things is a viable excuse for destroying budgets and therefore making further expansion/addition a harder sell to the board...

In fact - budget destruction is a likely cause of the thing you describe.

That IS corporate America...and it's not changing

 

[Tonyz]

Don't get me wrong, it is sad we are losing these greats that have that direct contact to Walt. Flloyd Norman is still alive and worded directly with Walt, one other example I can think of

Yeah I meant Imagineers. I don't believe Floyd ever worked on the parks.

 

[Tonyz]

I'm trying to not get rolling on this...

...but the simple truth is that joe rohde destroys budgets...like a plague of locusts.

We can write a book on how that has hurt parks...to this day...frivolity with public money leading to nearly irreversible problems.

That's a failure...he's in a business, not Rodin's sculpture studio...it's part of the job.

Walt's original ideas would often go over-budget too. Roy was the one who always had to bring him back down to reality.

When was the last time an Imagineering plan didn't go over budget?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Walt's original ideas would often go over-budget too. Roy was the one who always had to bring him back down to reality.

When was the last time an Imagineering plan didn't go over budget?

What was the "budget" figure released to the public on DAK?

$800 million...1993 dollars...

Wanna take a guess on what was spent?