The Psychology of the DLR Annual Pass Holder

[Canyon girl]

We upgraded to APs because we figured that we would go at least one more time during the year; since, we had moved within 8 hours from the midwest. We bought it for the discounts on hotel rooms. Sept. will be our 3rd trip on the APs. Obviously, we are not flooding the parks, and I think that there are more like us, too. My personal opinion is that part of the numbers problem is not just the number of people. It is also the number of projects that DLR has chosen to undertake at one time. Look at the decrease in parking spaces due to projects. They should have built a second parking garage before taking a parking lot away for Carsland (not to mention the poor name of this new land). Look at all the walls in DCA during the "busy" season. I know that Walt never wanted DLR to be finished, but I don't think that he wanted the entire park rebuilt at once with guests there as well. I know that the number of APs and AP attendees have gone up, but how much of this mess is created by a HUGE lack of planning. Bumbershoot, they forgot to consult us again!!!
Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Albort]

I appreciate your comments about not having a negative feeling about passholders. I find the ultra negative feelings about AP holders to be mystifying. I wish someone would explain to me the disdain that so many feel towards AP's. I have even heard CM's say how much they hate us. They say we only ever complain. I think I am the most positive about Disneyland and have turned many people's opinion around about it.

APs tend to think they are the boss of me. Like whenever i work a cart, i always get that one person who starts the conversation with a "Hi, Im an AP and i would like a _____" of course, I dont say anything but like, in my head its like, okay, your an AP, it doesnt mean your gonna get special treatment and etc. Its only a select few who believe that since they have an AP, they think they know how to run our operation and telling us what to do when clearly it is completely not true. We get yelled at more by APs because whatever they like, they feel they deserve more than they should than any other people.

I know i sound really negative but all of it is based on 3 years of work experience.

Stores who used to be our #1 profit department is now suffering. Another high profitable department also suffering is QSR. Guest now tend to bring in their own food and try to buy less than before. The economy is hurting Disney more now than ever. APs do however cover a lot of the new cost since they do get into the park free anyways, they will tend to spend more than a normal guest so i do believe having more APs is a good thing. they get in free/cheaper price, they will spend more.

The 3rd quarter report is out and Disney is at a 7% loss in revenue.

 

[Canyon girl]

APs tend to think they are the boss of me. Like whenever i work a cart, i always get that one person who starts the conversation with a "Hi, Im an AP and i would like a _____" of course, I dont say anything but like, in my head its like, okay, your an AP, it doesnt mean your gonna get special treatment and etc.

That's awfully RUDE!!! I could see if they asked you if your cart gave an AP discount, but the other is just poor taste!!!

 

[3Minnies1Mickey]

Maybe they should introduce a better loyalty program! Or let us earn points based on purchases - since as has been mentioned they can track at least the DP/PP food purchases. I'd probably eat in the park more if I was getting credit for my next pass.

I like this idea. Like the Executive Membership at Costco.

 

[HydroGuy]

I think the whole focus on AP holders is bizarre. I really don't understand it. Not when Lutz talks about it, not when random posters talk about it, not even when you, dear OP, talk about it.

There's just no such thing as a typical AP holder. Read some local trip reports on micechat and see how different each local AP holder is from each other. The mods there go about once a week, always eat lunch, only ride a couple rides it seems, and that's it. Others buy lots of stuff.

We are both tourists and AP holders. Sometimes we buy stuff, sometimes we don't. When we don't, it's b/c we're spending so much just getting to and staying somewhere near the park that the funds aren't there!

I disagree. I do not care to define a "typical" AP holder. But there is a very different dynamic between WDW and DLR which I think is fully explained by AP holders.

I was at DHS on the opening day of TSM on June 1, 2008. We rode it four times that day and the max posted wait was 80 minutes. We did FPs and single rider and so never waited that long ourselves.

Without even knowing the facts about TSM at DCA on opening day but with knowing the AP holder psychology I would have guessed that TSM had 4 hour lines. I dug up a MiceChat thread and sure enough the lines were all the way to Sunshine Plaza and estimated at 4-5 hours on June 17, 2008.

http://micechat.com/forums/disneyland-resort/98570-tsmm-grand-opening-day-6-17-a.html

I do not care how much AP holders spend. I do not care how often the average AP holder visits. I do not have anything against AP holders. But there is some factor out there that makes the TSM at DHS max out at 80 minutes on opening day while the TSM at DCA maxed out at 4+ hours. I would argue that factor is the psychology of many DLR AP holders. It is the same thing that caused the surge in Nightastic crowds in June of this year, and the four hour lines for Nemo in June 2007 and POTC in June 2006. And the same thing that Al Lutz says is making DLR look at modifying the AP program.

Not all AP holder fit this profile. I said that already. But enough do so that it causes gigantic crowd swings.

It is perfectly fair and appropriate for me to describe that here for folks who just do not know and cannot fathom four hour lines.

It is perfectly fair and appropriate for you to say not all AP holders fit the generalization. I agree with that. But I think that the generalization is in fact true.

 

[Boo Bear]

I don't understand why people jump the finger pointing bandwagon about APs. I just moved to California so I got one. Deal with it. Does classifying APs as a whole make the blamer look wise? No it just makes them look like a hater. This thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm going to stop before I start acting like the people who judge others.

 

[talie95]

I think that like anything else you can't really "generalize" what an AP person would/would not do. I know a lot of people with AP's who do go for short periods of time or after work but I also know a lot of people with AP's like me who only go 2-3 times/year and actually make a mini-vacation out of it. When we decided to get AP's it was because an AP was cheaper than the cost of a 3day parkhopper and we were going to be going for a 3 day stay during the week so we decided we might as well get the AP's. We usually go every 3-4 months and even though we are "locals" we treat DLR as a little vacation. We live an hour away (without traffic) so we stay at hotels and usually eat all our meals at the park or surrounding resort. I'm sure that some people with AP's (especially those who live very close to the resort) don't mind waiting in long lines for new rides but I actually avoid new rides all together and just figure I'll get to it on the next trip when the lines have died down.

 

[Leofoenget]

I think the main ap crowd is probably the lowest level. I went to DL right after the so cal was blocked out but not before the next level and the crowds were fine, however the week before was CRAZY NUTSO. I have a Deluxe but I live 8 hours away. I probably spend $$ more like a tourest and not a local. Maybe they could offer an "out of zip code" AP for people like me who want to visit more often but have to travel farther. Maybe some special discount or something.

 

[Albort]

I don't understand why people jump the finger pointing bandwagon about APs. I just moved to California so I got one. Deal with it. Does classifying APs as a whole make the blamer look wise? No it just makes them look like a hater. This thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm going to stop before I start acting like the people who judge others.

No one is pointing fingers, at least not that i see. I do believe APs still help Disney make a profit in terms on sales.

 

[Disney Dreams]

You know, they should be tracking how much people spend in the parks based on their AP discounts....

If there is a statistic that Disney can track, I would bet serious money that it's tracked. I was told once that if you pick an attraction, a date, and a time, Disney can tell you what the wait time will be. How? Stats. They gather, study, and utilize so much data based on what we all do when at the Parks.

... I can guarantee if there is a special LE release in the park, that day will be packed with AP's racing to pick one up. This has been a nice perk to Disney. DLR has more LE specials from what I have heard because they know AP's will come to the parks just to buy, were as that is not the norm at WDW....

I completely agree. I know you are speaking of the Gallery, but a very simple example of this is pins. There was a LE AP HM pin that was released. It sold out in 1 day. They do all sorts of limited pins for AP holders. Why? I would imagine it not only sells pins, but brings APs to the Park, as you said.

...It really would be interesting to see which levels spent what if they tracked it.

hehe, I would file it under the category of things they will never release.

- Dreams

 

[nunzia]

I would think it's obvious that AP holders fill the park on days they can..not ALL but enough to make a crowd. Didn't AL report there were 800,000 DLR AP holders? DL is busy at what..about 30,000? Doesn't take a very large percentage of APers to make an impact..add 'regular' tourists and you have a crowd. NOT a bad thing, I have nothing 'against' AP people..why would I? Anyone can be an AP holder if they pay for it, just like DVC, so it isn't like a special privilege. And the So Cal passes? That just means you have to live in crowded busy traffic So Cal to me. I'd rather be envious of Club 33 people instead of APs.
I plan on getting an AP in Sept by upgrading my pass with my birthday card. I'll go a whole 1 time extra because of this and may or may not have one the following year.
But really, I don't think we can argue that local AP holders don't impact crowds. Maybe they spend alot, maybe they don't, but they certainly do impact crowds.
As far as attitude, Albort, I'm sorry you get it. I've worked front line food and retail alot and I see it all the time. I DO ask if the cart/restaurant offers a DVC discount, but I'm certainly not entitled to the gold plated corndog, I'm just cheap and want my 40 cents off

 

[InLikeSin]

So this is our first year with PAP and we will be renewing again when the times up in Oct. (hopefully the price wont spike too high!). We go to the parks about 6-7 times a year and we definately spend like tourists. We stay at local hotels and eat basically every meal in the park. It would really be too bad if they change the AP system drastically because of how "local" people impact the crowd levels of the park. I think it would keep people like us who live farther out from buying into their passes.

Another thought, though I don't have any exact figures to back me up here, about the difference between the effects of passes here in CA and FL would maybe have less to do with all the different price points and payment plans that are offered to locals here and more to do with the amount of locals? There is nothing around DW in FL you have to drive quite a while it seemed to get into the resort. Not too local friendly. Here in SoCal people live with in a couple blocks. And not just people but A LOT of people live close by or within a reasonable driving distance. The park is over crowded in some sense because the whole area is over crowded.

APs tend to think they are the boss of me. Like whenever i work a cart, i always get that one person who starts the conversation with a "Hi, Im an AP and i would like a _____" of course, I dont say anything but like, in my head its like, okay, your an AP, it doesnt mean your gonna get special treatment and etc.

Im sorry but I don't see what is rude about this statement? If you don't tell the person that you have the AP how will they know you have one? All the trips we have been on with our passes we have never had a castmember treat us any differently. We also have never thought we were entitiled to more than just the stated discounts either though.

 

[HydroGuy]

I don't understand why people jump the finger pointing bandwagon about APs. I just moved to California so I got one. Deal with it. Does classifying APs as a whole make the blamer look wise? No it just makes them look like a hater. This thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm going to stop before I start acting like the people who judge others.

Hmmm. There have been numerous posts over the last month from people out of the area and who just do not know asking about the effect of AP holders on crowds last month in June, next month in August, and next summer of 2010. They are trying to plan trips. For fear of "classifying APs as a whole" should we not answer those questions?

Other people, including Al Lutz, have already been posting the thoughts in my OP for a long time. Recently the posts on this forum have been more frequent. All I have done is gather that into a central place for people who are looking for information. I do not think I have posted anything new or made any judgements on character. Others have in this thread and that is their issue.

If I lived closer to DLR I would buy an AP myself.

 

[DLR29]

Hmmm. There have been numerous posts over the last month from people out of the area and who just do not know asking about the effect of AP holders on crowds last month in June, next month in August, and next summer of 2010. They are trying to plan trips. For fear of "classifying APs as a whole" should we not answer those questions?

Other people, including Al Lutz, have already been posting the thoughts in my OP for a long time. Recently the posts on this forum have been more frequent. All I have done is gather that into a central place for people who are looking for information. I do not think I have posted anything new or made any judgements on character. Others have in this thread and that is their issue.

If I lived closer to DLR I would buy an AP myself.

I totally agree with the first part. The DIS is a place where information about DLR, including odd crowd patterns, should be investigated. I very much appreciate the OP Hydroguy, and I think there is a lot to be said about how AP holders (especially So. Cal) approach DLR.

I'm a Deluxe AP holder and don't live in So. Cal. I was there in late June before passes got blocked out. I also went during late June during the 50th Anniversary. HUGE difference. This past June was packed like I've never seen DL in a while.

But I think the main problem was the promotion itself this time. While there has been an increase in AP holders, the timing for this Summer Nighttastic was a big part of the issue. Well, yeah you can't have Summer Nighttastic in the fall but... This promo only had a limited time frame for people to come and see it. That combined with lots of commercials, ads, the Summer Fun pass for $99 all aimed at So. Cal residents. That's why the park was so crowded this past June.

Another point is that many AP holders are families with kids. That means they can't go during the week when they're not blocked out. They have to find some time during the year where they can go as a family without school being an issue. When is that?? Friday nights, Late June and Late August. There isn't really a way around that.

 

[Krissy Marissy]

I say take away the payment option and raise prices. If too many people can easily afford these passes and are scaring away tourists that will come and actually spend money in the park then that is what they need to do! Disneyland needs those toursists to survive.

 

[Disney Dreams]

Another point is that I'd guess the majority of AP holders are families with kids....

Why do people figure that true Disneyland lovers are with kids?

- doing a quick mental count -

I know upwards of 20 adult AP holders. 6 have kids. The rest are adults, long time Disney fans, enjoy the Park, and yes, collect, shop, and spend. And trust me, those of us without kids love the new Disney things as much as anyone else - after all, we have the AP for ourselves, NOT just because we have kids.

- Dreams

 

[DLR29]

Why do people figure that true Disneyland lovers are with kids?

- doing a quick mental count -

I know upwards of 20 adult AP holders. 6 have kids. The rest are adults, long time Disney fans, enjoy the Park, and yes, collect, shop, and spend. And trust me, those of us without kids love the new Disney things as much as anyone else - after all, we have the AP for ourselves, NOT just because we have kids.

- Dreams

Ok, maybe poor wording. Instead of "majority" I changed it to "many". The point was to say that since many AP holders have kids that have to go to school, it greatly affects crowd patterns during the times when those families are not blocked out and can take their kids. Also, let's say you know 20 adult AP holders. If 6 have 2 kids each (hypothetically), then that's a total of 18 people, adults and kids combined. The other 14 holders are still a significant amount, but the families have more.

I definitely wasn't trying to assume that Disney lovers have kids. Sorry if I was misinterpreted.

 

[SuzanneSLO]

. . .And the So Cal passes? That just means you have to live in crowded busy traffic So Cal to me. . .

So Cal passes are available to anyone in the US who lives in Zip Codes 90001-93599. While 90001 and 93599 are both located in LA County, there are a lot of areas in those Zip Codes the residents of which barely consider themselves So Cal residents. For example, I am up here in San Luis Obispo, a 216 mile drive to DL, which takes about 3.5 hours on a good day. So I blessed with the ability to purchase a So Cal AP or other ticket and no traffic.

One thought I had is that if DL really wants to encourage "tourist" AP holders rather than local AP holders, they could unbundle the parking from the PAP. This might also help with the parking issues caused by reports of 1 car per person parties.

We usually have a Deluxe AP (sometimes upgraded from a So Cal AP) but have never purchased a PAP. One of the reasons is that we have only parked one time in the M&F structure; we use our hotel's transportation or walk. As a result, our breakeven for an upgrade to PAP ends up being if we plan to attend more than 2 blackout days.

-- Suzanne

 

[JenDisneylandlver]

When some of you say the local SoCal AP holders are buying more merchandise, can you compare that with the cost a tourist spends at the disneyland resorts and restaurants? That would have to be some pretty hefty price tags on the merchandise to compete with what we've spent on a 6 day vacation at DL. (From out of state).

When we were there two years ago, one day DCA was way out of proportion with guests, (a weekday) I never could figure out why. It was later September and the kids were in school, most of our trip was reasonable crowds. We waited over 2 hours for ToT - I couldn't believe it - and that they were only running one elevator upstairs where we got shuttled to. We started chatting with the nice lady behind us. She was a local AP holder, a housewife and had only come to ride ToT before she had to pick up her son from school. The wait didn't bother her at all. Even when she commented it would probably make her late to get her son.

Our frustration level with the wait, however, was totally different from her relaxed attitude.
Must be nice to be a local.

Anyhow, the lack of resort/package discounts in the fall - or at least how they wait so long to release them just caused us to change from a DL trip in Nov to a WDW trip. Got a great discount on the AKL!

To be honest, yes, this is what upsets me about AP holders. Which we once were ourselves, only we got 3 uses out of them that year. We are not locals. So when we go we spend a good chunk of change. We do buy a lot of suvies because we aren't coming back next week. We can't just drop by for a few hours when we want. The crowds from locals just means less rides for us, longer wait times, and having to deal with crowded walk ways. Of people who will no doubt be back next week. It stinks when we are paying that kind of money, and it is our vacation, not a day trip.

I'm kinda of disappointed that DL has turned in to a day trip place for people. Can't say I blame the locals though. But to me it's like it's turning in to Great America or Marine World in Northern California. Those to me are day trips, not really a place where people go on vacation. DL is a resort, a special place that people go on vacation for. I remember the crowds of the 80's which I'm guessing was BEFORE AP's. Walking on the rides, and the place being "dead" had a whole different meaning then what people talk about now.

Anyway I hope they are able to do something, as I don't view it as fair to those families who are spending a few thousand (if not more) to come for vacation there. Like I said I can't really blame locals for wanting to go often (who wouldn't), but it does stink for tourists.

 

[fairycat]

DL was always designed as a day trip. The idea was to have a place for a family to get away and have a fun day in a magical place, Walt says it many times. WDW changed the idea of the Disney parks and instead of saying spend a magical day with us, it became spend a magical week with us and please empty your wallet into the bins as you come in. The addition of DCA is DLR trying to create a resort instead of the past version of a day trip park.

I am mostly going to stay out of this because it is getting to be a bit us and them, but here is the thing,
1) We all have our way to do DLR depending on where we live, money, expectations and the like
2) Other visitors visit the parks, some do things like we do, some do it completely different
3) Yes, AP's can effect crowds, as can holidays, new ride openings, weather and so much more
4) Disney does not want a dead park, a dead park while making us happy, makes for a poorer Disney, which means more cuts and less things we all would like to keep in the park
5) we all spend money differently in the parks, many of us think we drop a lot of money at Disney, but some one else next to you will always spend much more then you and some a lot less, which means most of us are some where in the middle
6) Disney for all the fun and wonder is a business in the end they will balance money and customer service, but side with money if they can
7) Some people are putz's and will try to seem more important then they are and ask you as some one working in the private sector to kiss their butt's or they will report you, no matter where you work, it doesn't mean all people are putz's


While I understand the point of the OP and talking about crowds, I think it seems like this is becoming a bit of US/THEM. I think we all wish for the days of off seasons with low crowds, predictable crowd levels and more, but with the way things are going that is a change we might have to accept. I think that in some ways though larger crowds do show that Disney can keep people coming in despite the current economy, which hopefully will keep more things from being cut. In the end all we can do is either go to the parks and try and have the best day we can with what we get, or find a new place to vacation. The good old days are far behind us now, but so is the nasty summers that use to be!