How would you reform the US Education system.

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The point that I was trying to make is that if as someone suggested, we require SpEd students to get their education at home instead of a classroom setting, why not do away with all classroom setting and require parents to teach their own children? A parent should have no problem teaching the skills learned at the elementary and middle school levels. Parents may need to brush up on their skills when their children get to the high school level.

So are you saying force parents in public school to homeschool their kids essentially?

Because I would pay for private school if that was the policy.

You can't force me to homeschool my kids.
 
So are you saying force parents in public school to homeschool their kids essentially?

Because I would pay for private school if that was the policy.

You can't force me to homeschool my kids.

I thought she was saying that SpecEd students should not be singled out and made the crux of "what is wrong with American education."
 
So are you saying force parents in public school to homeschool their kids essentially?

Because I would pay for private school if that was the policy.

You can't force me to homeschool my kids.


I'm not saying to force anyone to home school their children. A post a few pages back said that SpEd students should not be in school but should be taught at home. I was just turning that idea around and showing how it could apply to the GenEd students as well.



I thought she was saying that SpecEd students should be singled out and made the crux of "what is wrong with American education."

I was saying that SpEd students should not be singled out.

Edited to add...
Since this thread has gotten long, here are the posts that my comments were in response to.


The severely disabled should receive services but not in schools. What exactly are they being educated in? They are not learning math or science.

The amount spent is staggering.


Uh - the same place the rest of us learn daily living skills and life skills! Home.
 
Why in the hell does my nerdy kid need to take PE? She would be better off taking a computer class. Don't give me your mumbo jumbo how important PE is...that is baloney.
Because grade school and high school are about being well-rounded and being exposed to a wide variety of things. College and adulthood are for focusing on what you're really good at.

Using your logic, we should let kids who are bad at math just skip out on learning their multiplication tables. Or we should let those for whom reading doesn't come easily just listen to books on tape.
She could probably take a community college class NOW in english and do well.
But that'd mean skipping the curriculum that's set for her current grade level. She may have fantastic reading ability, but that doesn't mean she's been exposed to all the great adolescent lit that they get in middle school, nor the American historical literature and British literature that they get in high school. The better choice is not to SKIP these things, but to take an advanced high school English course so that she'll progress at a faster pace, increase her already-high ability, and be exposed to more literature.
To do that, we'd have to get rid of Varsity sports, and spend more time on academics. Most kids would have to forego getting part time jobs, to fit homework and real studying when they get home.
Here's the rub: All kids aren't academic. No matter what you do, they just aren't going to be book-smart. For some of those kids, SPORTS is what keeps them coming to school. It's their carrot, it's what keeps them going.

For other kids, sports equals school spirit. Do we really want school to be a dreary, dull place where ALL we do is work? Even my kids, who are very smart, love the social aspects of school and would be burned out without them.

Finally, at the high school level, sports are essentially a self-supporting venture. Around here, football and basketball "carry" the other sports. On a good night, we sell $8,000-10,000 in football tickets. Some age-old rivalry games bring in three times that much. Don't imagine that the school's choosing between new math books and football helmets. It just isn't that way.
If you read my argument carefully (and in context of the previous messages) I was saying that ANY teacher (young or old) who is not fulfilling the same duties that their peers are, or are consistently being outperformed by their peers, should be shoved out of their jobs.

Under the current system of tenure and Union protection, teachers who prefer to kick their feet up and reap the benefits of yearly step increases, and multi-year contracts, are taking up space for new graduates who actually WANT to teach and would do it regardless of contract or salary.
People tend to think that tenured teachers cannot be fired. This is untrue. I've personally seen tenured teachers lose their jobs. Tenure does not protect a teacher who isn't performing up to snuff.

Tenure does one thing and one thing only: It assures a teacher that he or she cannot be fired WITHOUT CAUSE.

A new teacher who doesn't have tenure has only a one-year contract. If the principal's nephew graduates and wants to teach Biology, that principal has every right to say, "Goodbye!" to a first-year teacher regardless of whether he or she's done a good job. A principal can kick out a high-performing first-year teacher because he needs someone who can both teach AND coach wrestling. A non-tenured teacher also is under pressure not to assign failing grades to students.

Once a teacher has tenure, he or she cannot be let go for these frivolous reasons. BUT that teacher absolutely CAN be fired if the job isn't getting done: If the teacher isn't keeping good records, isn't maintaining discipline, isn't consistantly presenting good quality lessons.

If this ISN'T happening in your schools, it's because your administrators have no backbone.
Require anyone receiving federal/state aid to take parenting classes and put in so many hours in the schools. Have early childhood classes for parents and kids (Minnesota has this already) and REQUIRE attendance or no food stamps, etc.
I'm with you on the parenting classes, but not necessarily on the school attendance.

Attending school doesn't equal learning. For some students, it means causing trouble and preventing other students from learning. It's just aggravation for the teacher and no benefit for the student. I read an article recently (wish I had access to it, but I don't) that tracked the INCREASE in the overall school's performance when a few troublemakers were removed from the classrooms. Don't get me wrong: I wish every student wanted to attend, learn, earn a diploma, and get out into the world and do well . . . but that just isn't fact.
 
Attending school doesn't equal learning. For some students, it means causing trouble and preventing other students from learning. It's just aggravation for the teacher and no benefit for the student. I read an article recently (wish I had access to it, but I don't) that tracked the INCREASE in the overall school's performance when a few troublemakers were removed from the classrooms. Don't get me wrong: I wish every student wanted to attend, learn, earn a diploma, and get out into the world and do well . . . but that just isn't fact.

I meant that the PARENTS are required to attend the classes. If they are like the classes we have in MN for our Early Childhood program-which are open to everyone--you can't help but pick up parenting tips.
 
I think many of the problems regarding our kids' academic achievement have little or nothing to do with the schools, and until these social problems are addressed there will be no genuine significant change. That's about as much as I can say without getting political.

You are so right.

I did not read the whole thread but did someone already say fire all the teachers and get the real experts in the classroom? That is as much as I can say without getting political. I am a teacher and frankly everyone knows better than we do so have at it. I would love nothing better than to sit back and watch the "experts" make the system better. Since we are NEVER consulted when it comes to educational policy all those who know better can walk the walk.
 
Because grade school and high school are about being well-rounded and being exposed to a wide variety of things. College and adulthood are for focusing on what you're really good at.

Using your logic, we should let kids who are bad at math just skip out on learning their multiplication tables. Or we should let those for whom reading doesn't come easily just listen to books on tape.But that'd mean skipping the curriculum that's set for her current grade level. She may have fantastic reading ability, but that doesn't mean she's been exposed to all the great adolescent lit that they get in middle school, nor the American historical literature and British literature that they get in high school. The better choice is not to SKIP these things, but to take an advanced high school English course so that she'll progress at a faster pace, increase her already-high ability, and be exposed to more literature.Here's the rub: All kids aren't academic. No matter what you do, they just aren't going to be book-smart. For some of those kids, SPORTS is what keeps them coming to school. It's their carrot, it's what keeps them going.

For other kids, sports equals school spirit. Do we really want school to be a dreary, dull place where ALL we do is work? Even my kids, who are very smart, love the social aspects of school and would be burned out without them.

#1) I said OPTIONAL.....guess how many jocks would be happy to be rid of the nerds and vice versa. Both of them can excel at what they are good at.

I am specifically targeting PE and not reading, math, etc. Nice try though to pretend we can eliminate core classes as justification for your argument. You are going to have to do better than that.

My child hates PE, is not good at sports and is knocked kneed. How is that beneficial and makes her well rounded? Give me a break. It is awful for a kid who sucks at it. To be reminded that you really suck at sports is so great, right? NOT!

Having the option to take a different class would make school BETTER FOR HER.

How wonderful would it be for her to take a computer, business, or some other class.
 
#1) I said OPTIONAL.....guess how many jocks would be happy to be rid of the nerds and vice versa. Both of them can excel at what they are good at.

I am specifically targeting PE and not reading, math, etc. Nice try though to pretend we can eliminate core classes as justification for your argument. You are going to have to do better than that.

My child hates PE, is not good at sports and is knocked kneed. How is that beneficial and makes her well rounded? Give me a break. It is awful for a kid who sucks at it. To be reminded that you really suck at sports is so great, right? NOT!

Having the option to take a different class would make school BETTER FOR HER.

How wonderful would it be for her to take a computer, business, or some other class.

Well, I hated math and having an extra PE class would have made school better for me but that is not what school is about. In your DD's case PE should be seen as a benefit to help with coordination and fitness-both of which are beneficial long run. Math is awful for a kid that sucks at it too...
 
I think one thing that needs to be done is to re-localize control of the schools. Our schools spend too much time and money complying with edicts handed down from distant bureaucrats that have little or nothing to do with local conditions. One size doesn't fit all, and trying to make it fit stifles innovation and excellence. It also dicourages community involvement because so many of the important decisions are made at the state or federal levels where the voices of a small group of parents are easily ignored.

We also need less emphasis on college as the One Right Path. Just to graduate now in my state you have to take the courses required for a typical selective college. There's no room left for trade schools or other non-college paths, and pushing for 100% of kids to go to college to prepare them for an economy where only about 25% of jobs require degrees does nothing more than encourage the accumulation of debt to obtain a devalued credential.

And hand-in-hand with that we need to get real about the nature of our economy - we spend so much time and money chasing marginal reductions in the drop out rate, while ignoring the fact that whether they graduate high school or not our economy depends upon a fairly large segment of our population saying "Would you like fries with that?" and "Welcome to Walmart". Let kids learn that lesson on their own, rather than forcing rebellious teens into classrooms to make the educational experience more difficult for the kids who do want to be there; maybe after a few years as a fryer jockey, they'll see things differently, at which point the GED test is always waiting.

And I know it is unpopular, but we need to really think about how best to use limited resources. It doesn't make sense for the schools to provide expensive one-on-one care for kids who will never function as adults or provide isolation settings for students who are constantly disruptive in a normal classroom setting while cutting honors, AP, arts, music, etc. that benefit the higher achievers or the student body as a whole. For our schools to succeed their purpose needs to be education, not social services for poor communities or respite care for disabled children.
 
Well, I hated math and having an extra PE class would have made school better for me but that is not what school is about. In your DD's case PE should be seen as a benefit to help with coordination and fitness-both of which are beneficial long run. Math is awful for a kid that sucks at it too...

You do know that this is what this thread is about. How to make school better?

So you are saying you would not go along with something that made your schooling better because "this is how it is done'? Nevermind the fact that many kids would prefer to take something else and seriously benefit from it rather than a PE class.

And you would not have an extra PE, you would either take PE or a different class. It would be optional.
 
You do know that this is what this thread is about. How to make school better?

So you are saying you would not go along with something that made your schooling better because "this is how it is done'? Nevermind the fact that many kids would prefer to take something else and seriously benefit from it rather than a PE class.

And you would not have an extra PE, you would either take PE or a different class. It would be optional.

No, I am saying that education is about exposing kids to all different things, whether they like them or not because in the real world we all have to do things we don't like. It is all part of the learning and growing up process to take PE when you suck at it. What would happen if people ONLY did things they liked?? I would also think that for a child that is so bright according to mom that she would realize that she isn't good in PE and would want to challenge herself to get better-which is another important part of learning-knowing what you know and are not good at and figuring out a way to get better.
 
The point that I was trying to make is that if as someone suggested, we require SpEd students to get their education at home instead of a classroom setting, why not do away with all classroom setting and require parents to teach their own children? A parent should have no problem teaching the skills learned at the elementary and middle school levels. Parents may need to brush up on their skills when their children get to the high school level.

quick question? what happens to parents who have to actually work to survive? What happens to their special ed kids? If they are banned from schools and every parent has to now be teachers (which no matter how much brushing up I did, no way could I homeschool) what happens to them?

Do they magically disappear? Just asking.
 
No, I am saying that education is about exposing kids to all different things, whether they like them or not because in the real world we all have to do things we don't like. It is all part of the learning and growing up process to take PE when you suck at it. What would happen if people ONLY did things they liked?? I would also think that for a child that is so bright according to mom that she would realize that she isn't good in PE and would want to challenge herself to get better-which is another important part of learning-knowing what you know and are not good at and figuring out a way to get better.

Right now she is dealing with medical issues and she has anxiety. So it is not an easy fix here.

PE is not going to solve those issues.

She has been recently diagnosed with knock kneed and has to wear a brace in PE. Now it will help her because she will not be in pain all the time, hopefully.

Her anxiety is about pain. So she does not do things like ride a bike or things that are "risky" with getting injured.

Are we working on her issues? Sure, but it is slow.

She has been exposed to PE. Lesson is over.
 
No, I am saying that education is about exposing kids to all different things, whether they like them or not because in the real world we all have to do things we don't like. It is all part of the learning and growing up process to take PE when you suck at it. What would happen if people ONLY did things they liked?? I would also think that for a child that is so bright according to mom that she would realize that she isn't good in PE and would want to challenge herself to get better-which is another important part of learning-knowing what you know and are not good at and figuring out a way to get better.

Because it's PE. Unless you are planning to get some sort of job where knowledge of the rules of basketball is going to be beneficial, you really don't need it for your future success. The same cannot be said for writing or mathematics skills. (Note that when it comes to math, I don't think that higher math should be required of all HS students; that should be an optional track for the college-bound.)

Art, music and foreign languages are arguably just as important for being well-rounded as PE would be, but in most states those are not required courses, but PE is. It's not logical. That particular requirement is a leftover from a Kennedy administration federal school funding initiative that I'm not sure is even still in place, and which was designed to ensure that draftees fresh out of high school would pass military basic training.
 
Because it's PE. Unless you are planning to get some sort of job where knowledge of the rules of basketball is going to be beneficial, you really don't need it for your future success. The same cannot be said for writing or mathematics skills. (Note that when it comes to math, I don't think that higher math should be required of all HS students; that should be an optional track for the college-bound.)

Art, music and foreign languages are arguably just as important for being well-rounded as PE would be, but in most states those are not required courses, but PE is. It's not logical. That particular requirement is a leftover from a Kennedy administration federal school funding initiative that I'm not sure is even still in place, and which was designed to ensure that draftees fresh out of high school would pass military basic training.

You really don't think that knowing how to play sports or learning how to exercise isn't important in the long run? No, it may not relate directly to your job but it certainly relates directly to your LIFE. All of education isn't JUST learning for a future career, it is about learning for LIFE. Art, music and foreign languages are all required here. I would be all for an exemption from a PE class for kids that are involved in after school sports though.
 
DS is a freshman at an arts magnet high school. There are no sports, which is PERFECT for him. PE credits are met through dance classes. He is not a dancer, he is in theater, but a couple of dance classes will absolutely help him on stage.

Our district has 3 graduation plans - Impossibly Hard, Pretty Darn Hard, and Reasonable. BUT wait a minute! The Reasonable one is ONLY for kids who have been identified at high risk of dropping out. They modify the mandatory number of math, science, and foreign language credits needed to graduate but they make it REALLY difficult for kids to be allowed on this plan. The student has to be at the end of their sophomore year, a meeting has to take place with student, parent, counselor, and administrator and everyone has to sign this paper saying as a last ditch effort to keep the kid in school they all agree to lower the bar. So your only REAL options are the plan for mid-level rocket scientists and SERIOUS rocket scientists. They have decided that they are going to fit these square pegs into these round holes come hell or high water, period, the end. RIGOROUS college prep classes for everyone, no discussion.

DS has no interest in a career path with high level math and science, yet he will be forced to take those courses. He won't do well, his GPA will suffer, and instead of extra-curriculars he will be sitting in tutoring. :sad2: The district wants me to believe that no college would dream of admitting him without a full load of AP classes, a 4.0 GPA, and a ton of community service and whatever.

But guess what? The school has a website with college resources. They list what the colleges require in high school, and they list average GPA of admitted students along with ACT and SAT scores. One college is letting kids in with like 2 years of high school math, a 2.67 GPA, and like 16 on the ACT! I just read something yesterday about how sensible parents know that there is a college for every child. If that is true, WHY are ALL kids being forced down the exact same path? Why not allow a little discretion when it comes to courses? :confused3

I am going to meet with his counselor and fin out exactly what the deal is. In a perfect world his course load would be somewhere between the Reasonable one and the Pretty Darn Hard one. I just don't know if he will be allowed to do that.
 
The first thing I'd do is abolish the US Dept. of Education. It hasn't done a lot of good from what i can see. Then I'd tell all 50 states that your school system is your own to run.

Would it work? I don't know, but I doubt it would be any worse.
 
You really don't think that knowing how to play sports or learning how to exercise isn't important in the long run? No, it may not relate directly to your job but it certainly relates directly to your LIFE. All of education isn't JUST learning for a future career, it is about learning for LIFE. Art, music and foreign languages are all required here. I would be all for an exemption from a PE class for kids that are involved in after school sports though.

Learning how to exercise, sure, but most of the time that isn't how PE is taught. There is a huge emphasis on team games, but I don't think that most non-athlete high schoolers are taught about safe lifting, optimal heart rates and BMI's. I think that most kids who hate PE would do much better if they were allowed to just use it as a fitness program and choose from activities that they CAN do well enough at to get some fitness benefit from.

When I was in school the district required us to take PE all 4 years, but the school only gave us a half-credit for each year, because the state requirement was two years. My senior year I successfully lobbied to get out of PE my final semester because I was prepping for a major national academic competition and needed to go to prep sessions at a nearby college campus. They retroactively gave me a full class credit for the PE I had taken my junior year, so that I could graduate.
 
quick question? what happens to parents who have to actually work to survive? What happens to their special ed kids? If they are banned from schools and every parent has to now be teachers (which no matter how much brushing up I did, no way could I homeschool) what happens to them?

Do they magically disappear? Just asking.

Exactly! Some people (not saying it's you) are quick to say that SpEd students shouldn't be in the public schools but should be at home instead. If that suggestion ever becomes a reality, what is going to happen to these kids? IMHO, I think that it would end up costing us as a society much more in the long run then it does now to educate these kids in a school.


I guess my posts weren't as clear as they could have been. I was just trying to point out to the person that suggested it, how it could play out if we expanded his/her idea to include GenEd kids as well.

Sorry for the confusion.


Because it's PE. Unless you are planning to get some sort of job where knowledge of the rules of basketball is going to be beneficial, you really don't need it for your future success. The same cannot be said for writing or mathematics skills. (Note that when it comes to math, I don't think that higher math should be required of all HS students; that should be an optional track for the college-bound.)

PE does more than teach you the rules of the game. It teaches a lot of social skills that can be used as an adult.

Art, music and foreign languages are arguably just as important for being well-rounded as PE would be, but in most states those are not required courses, but PE is. It's not logical. That particular requirement is a leftover from a Kennedy administration federal school funding initiative that I'm not sure is even still in place, and which was designed to ensure that draftees fresh out of high school would pass military basic training.



As far as I know, all of the schools here require students to take some type of fine arts classes to graduate.
 
Y'all are stretching the concept of inclusion way beyond what actually happens. We have self-contained classes for the kids who have severe and profound needs. Kids who at the toddler level, as you're describing, aren't in mainstream history classes. They're in separate classes, learning to bake cookies, wash and fold clothes, and they're earning an occupational diploma (not the same academic diploma that most kids will receive).

My question is why should that be done with educational dollars? Addressing medical issues should be the domain of the health care system, and that's part of why our educational costs are so much higher - because our for-profit medical care system has shifted much of the burden of providing care and accommodation for disabled children to the school system.
 
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