New pamphlet handed out yesterday...3/3/2012

[bouncycat]

"bouncycat" that started this thread said, "I don't hit TOO many people, unless I can't help it due to them walking in front of me". I have not read this whole thread, but due to a little toddler nearly run down by a ECV in a playground, this caught my eye. Not trying to cause a problem here, just pointing out that this is one of the reasons (maybe) that these leaflets are being handed just to those in mobile devices to be extra vigilant, because this barely 2 yr. old was in her right place and doing what is expected of a child. She could have easily been seriously hurt or killed. These leaflets were for a particular reason, someone in control of a heavy vehicle, not everyone on foot without a heavy machine that would have the "potential" to hurt someone. And the reason I quoted the OP was what she said about not hitting TOO MANY people - say what?? I was one of those and it wasn't my fault. This lady came barreling in to a doorway where I was. The second part of the quote would be understandable. I don't understand why so many are upset about the need for Disney to ask people on mobile devices to be very careful. You're only being "singled out" as some have put it, because you are using one, NOT because of WHY you are using it. I have tried to be diplomatic because some take things the wrong way when none is intended, but I have seen so many reckless ECV drivers (more likely those that may be using them only temporarily) but I also see many courteous, excellent drivers. So I would hope that as with any group, those that need to be reminded would take heed, and those that don't will understand and keep doing what you are doing. Disney has no way of knowing what "few" to hand these leaflets to. This happens in all our lives - the lawful are given rules and regulations that we follow anyway, just like the ones that always break the law get the same rules. I have been told things, or instructed not to do "such and such" in a group when I wouldn't have dreamed of doing it anyway, but I just take it as intended, because I know I'm not guilty. Hope this is taken in the same spirit that I'm writing it in, because it's not meant to offend anyone.

would you like me to define "too many"? OK. i can do that.

first person, I was parked outside of the Jedi Training academy, a good 18 inches behind a lady, I was stopped in the crowd, my chair was OFF. This lady backs up without looking, and hits her ankle on my footplate on my chair. That was the first one.

The second, I was in AK by the Tree of Life, where it gets REALLY crowded. I waited for a long line of people to go thru a narrow path, once I had a lane, I started to go, watching for feet beside me, and this guy comes walking towards me, plowed thru the people cause he couldn't push ME over, his foot got under my wheel, and my wheel went OVER his foot. Because the WALKING person did not have the patience to wait his turn to go thru a crowded area. But, according to the pamplet, if I would have did what it told me to do, I would still be sitting at that same spot, waiting for everyone to get 3 feet away from me so I could move safely.

Third one was a cheerleader going by me to get to her group in line. She just about ended up on my lap. She came up from behind me, and her thigh ran into the back of my armrest. I was maybe barely moving with the line. Again, not my fault.

There have been many times where my 13 yr old son would be too close to me, and his toes get run over. He's my child, he knows to keep a good distance from me, and he doesn't. I pay his medical bills, so I don't complain to disney about that.

Fourth one was last night, I hit my DH's foot, and it was my fault.

I cannot count how many times a child runs right in front of me, or a person stops right in front of me, and I'm able to stop and not hit them. We frequent the parks 2 to 3 times a WEEK. those are my running people over stories. Don't believe me, I can have friends who I visit the parks with post and vouch for my driving.

My family has been hit by far more strollers and people trying to get to somewhere quick by running or power walking, than ECV's or power chairs. Where's their pamphlet? Why is it me who always has to look out for others? That's my point. my chair is clearly my own. Rental scooters, yea, they have to sign a waiver. But with my own, I'm in it EVERY day!! I know the perameters, and where I can go and where I can't go. My body might be failing, but my memory is really good, and I can remember the people that have come in contact with my chair. And not to take offense? How can I not take offense when I'm clearly not guilty myself, but am treated that way?

 

[bookwormde]

I will give my experience and perspective as a "walker".

I find the vast majority of individuals that use a mobility device to be exceptionally considerate, patient and cautious. There are those "newbie drivers" who are simply distracted by managing the unfamiliar demand of the device or lack driving proficiency, but if you are at all observant, they are easy to spot and give some extra room.

As an Aspie who is trying to navigate WDW with a child with a non visible disability, I am often "distracted" and bump into and get pumped into by people, Quite honestly is not a big deal. I have been clipped by mobility devices and even had my foot run up on. Yes it hurts a little, but is not that big a deal, and I certainly do not get upset since to a major portion I have most of the responsibility. When I do have my act together I try to be extra considerate.

As for the pamphlet, I entirely understand why this one sided targeting would be considered discriminatory (not to motion not very effective). I am all for broad education and reinforcement of everyone being considerate, but that applies and is valuable for everyone.

I am guessing that this was not developed through the "disability team" since they know better, but was a "park" initiated item.

 

[DSquare]

I have a very hard time believing anyone at Disney who is responsible in this area would ever suggest that no outside ECVs or PWCs be allowed into the park. If this was actually said and not misinterpreted than it was a park employee just expressing his/her own opinion.

 

[buffettgirl]

I have a very hard time believing anyone at Disney who is responsible in this area would ever suggest that no outside ECVs or PWCs be allowed into the park. If this was actually said and not misinterpreted than it was a park employee just expressing his/her own opinion.

yeah - I mean...would they tell everyone "ok, only Disney approved eye glasses in the park. "

Plus they'd have to also disallow any outside strollers. THAT wouldn't go over well.

 

[North of Mouse]

bouncycat, I was responding to the first part of your quote, where you said, "I don't hit TOO many people" which I assumed you meant just what you wrote that you do indeed "hit" some people. The second part, "unless I can't help it due to them walking in front of me" is the the situations you described in your last post. Those are the ones I said were completely understandable. If YOU hit anyone, it is TOO many! That's the way your post read, if you did not mean it that way, that's still what you wrote - so I can not read minds, only what someone has written and interpret it as such. I HAVE seen some people on ECV's hit others, just as I HAVE seen and been run into by walkers and strollers. Fair and equal means we ALL have a responsibility to respect others' space and we ALL have to give way to toddlers. Sure, parents have the most responsibility, but their very innocents and quickness causes them to act faster than us sometimes. A machine is always going to do more damage than a person. I was quoted several times from that post, and I tried very hard to be fair and not contentious, which only leads me to believe that some people are just looking for trouble and have their minds made up before reading - sorry if you were offended as that was not my attention. I could have taken offence many times, but realize that some people can dish it out, but not take it, so I move on. We are going soon to the F&G show, and will ignore all the rudeness of anyone and will have a great time.

 

[ttintagel]

Who hands out the pamphlet about not letting your kids run up and down the access ramps unsupervised and climb on the railings so that the people in wheelchairs for whom those ramps were put there can't get through?

I didn't think so.

 

[Agent555]

I'm always SUPER careful of when I'm driving, and if people wanted to complain, it's easy to describe my chair!! it's painted orange with black stripes LOL

I know it's off topic but all I can think about is Tigger (you and your chair) rolling around the park! I hope everything get resolved!

 

[bouncycat]

bouncycat, I was responding to the first part of your quote, where you said, "I don't hit TOO many people" which I assumed you meant just what you wrote that you do indeed "hit" some people. The second part, "unless I can't help it due to them walking in front of me" is the the situations you described in your last post. Those are the ones I said were completely understandable. If YOU hit anyone, it is TOO many! That's the way your post read, if you did not mean it that way, that's still what you wrote - so I can not read minds, only what someone has written and interpret it as such. I HAVE seen some people on ECV's hit others, just as I HAVE seen and been run into by walkers and strollers. Fair and equal means we ALL have a responsibility to respect others' space and we ALL have to give way to toddlers. Sure, parents have the most responsibility, but their very innocents and quickness causes them to act faster than us sometimes. A machine is always going to do more damage than a person. I was quoted several times from that post, and I tried very hard to be fair and not contentious, which only leads me to believe that some people are just looking for trouble and have their minds made up before reading - sorry if you were offended as that was not my attention. I could have taken offence many times, but realize that some people can dish it out, but not take it, so I move on. We are going soon to the F&G show, and will ignore all the rudeness of anyone and will have a great time.

A machine doesn't necesarily do the most damage, I was plowed thru by a guy walking out of MK when I was still able to walk, he hit me on my good side, and almost knocked me to the ground. My 19 yr old nephew caught me, otherwise with the crowd going out of MK, I would have been hurt really bad. As it was it DID hurt pretty bad, since he shoulder checked me, and my disease started in my shoulders.

I'm not looking for trouble. I just want fairness if people are going to judge. The one person in that video does not represent everyone in power chairs/ECV's. that is clearly a rented scooter she was on, and she's one that should get a pamplet.

Who hands out the pamphlet about not letting your kids run up and down the access ramps unsupervised and climb on the railings so that the people in wheelchairs for whom those ramps were put there can't get through?

I didn't think so.

My thoughts exactly. I've been in my power chair in that area, that ramp is designed for people with mobility issues, but kids do play on it all the time. The lady was going too fast, and with a child on her lap? Never good!!!

I know it's off topic but all I can think about is Tigger (you and your chair) rolling around the park! I hope everything get resolved!

Thanks!!! I get lots of complements on it, and my hubby just beams. He paints it all on his own, cause he knows I like it, and I say if I gotta use it, might as well put your personality in it. A page or two back there's a picture

 

[TLSnell1981]

..

Last summer I was run over but a scooter be driven by a man that was backing out of a elevator at the Contemporary, he had his 2 grandsons on his lap and backed up and parked right onto my foot after I shoved my 9 year old son out of the way. I informed him "excuse me sir, you are on my FOOT!" and he then moved forward and backed into me AGAIN, nearly knocking me over. I totally understand it was an accident but 1. He didnt need his grandsons on his lap 2. A sorry would have been nice.. my foot was bruised and it hurt for a few days
!

Okay, I agree, the man should not have the children riding with him. But, you realized, he was having difficulty backing out of the elevator. Why didn't you move, and give him more space to maneuver?

No, people in ecv/chairs and people walking are both responsible to be aware of their surroundings and act accordingly. .

There seems to be a lot a resentment towards guests, who use ECVs, especially, those with hidden disabilities. Too many mobile guests, never look where they are going, they stroll or run right in front of the ECV. Of course, they bear no responsibility.

I hope Disney has seen, the error of their ways, and will not hand out pamphlets in the future ( unless it's to ALL guests).

 

[HowdyHeidi]

I agree that if they are handing these out to guests with disabilities, they should also hand out something to everyone about walking etiquette.

 

[Talking Hands]

I was in WDW last weekend and the only pamphlet we were given was one for Guests with Disabilities. I did run over one foot, my husband's. For the most part people were great. Did have a Chef almost run into me when she skirted around a group and darted back but with much dancing on both our parts we avoided colliding. Had a cheerleader smack her arm into my armrest when she tried to dart around me. Because of the crowds I had to take it really easy. No wind sprints. Grandson and I had a great time celebrating our birthdays together.

 

[Friendly Frog]

We just got back late last night after spending the week at DW. I have my own personal scooter and did not receive a brochure at any of the parks so they must have abandoned the idea of handing them out.


I completely agree with you Tinker Bell Fan! While there are polite and even helpful people who use ECV/WC/strollers or walk we also saw rude and obnoxious people in all of these categories as well. If DW wants to give etiquette lessons by handing out brochures than they should be sure to give them to stroller users and walkers as well.

While they are at it maybe they should hand out a brochure at the entrance to all bathrooms as well, especially the ladies rooms, letting the ladies know that they should use the toilet seat covers provided instead of hovering over the seat and peeing all over it and then walking away without cleaning it up.



Don't you think the same thing would happen if you handed them out just to ECV/WC users??? Stroller users and walkers are in just as much need of etiquette lessons as anyone else but the only ones who would bother reading the brochures are the ones who don't need lessons and the ones who do need lessons would not only not read them but would use them to litter the ground with instead of properly disposing of them.

There are rude and ignorant people everywhere and a brochure isn't going to change that. While at Disney this week with my personal ECV I had people smash into me with strollers. I even had a small child pushing a stroller smash into me repeatedly until she managed to get the stroller locked onto my ECV all the while her mother was pushing another stroller and looking over her shoulder and watching her child do this and said nothing. We were all headed towards the rest rooms and when we finally got up to them the mother parked her stroller next to the one she was allowing her very small child to push and completely blocked the path to the restroom.

This was not my only encounter with small children who were not being properly supervised and were running around and darting in and out and bumping into me. Maybe we should give brochures to all parents regardless if they are using strollers or not with etiquette lessons on how to properly supervise their children.

While we are at it maybe we should give brochures to anyone who wants to enter the park in groups of 3 or more and educate them in how to walk so as not to block the walkways. I can't tell you how many times we saw large groups of people all walking side by side next to each other in one long line and completely blocking walkways to the point of everyone coming at them from the other direction having to go single file and squeeze themselves way over to the side just to get by them. Would someone please tell me the point of groups walking that way. When you have 6 to 8 people all walking side by side the people on one end can't talk to the people on the other end anyway so why don't they walk in 2 or 3 rows of 2 to 3 people so people from the other direction can get by them?

The point is there are people from all walks of life who have no common sense and who are just plain rude. Unfortunately, they are the ones we all remember the most. They are the same people that won't read any brochure you hand out anyway. I do think most scooter issues come from people who are unfamiliar with using them. It might help if Disney would rent out smaller more maneuverable scooters. The ones they have are big and clunky. We would all benefit from that.

I was disappointed to find out that they aren't allowing scooters in the Space Ranger ride line at the MK anymore. I was given the reason that they line was too narrow but I have taken my scooter into that line every trip up until this time and never had any problem whatsoever maneuvering through that line. Now I have to transfer to a wheelchair and rely on my husband to push me through the line. My ECV gives me freedom to get around on my own and I hate having to transfer to a WC because I feel like that freedom has then been taken away from me, something only somebody who has been in my shoes would understand I'm sure.

Amen!!!!!!

I have not made it all the way in this thread yet but this post is straight on!


I will comment more when I finish the thread.

 

[Friendly Frog]

I was park hopping for 8 days recently and I did receive the pamplet one time. I felt insulted by it and I am a " rule follower". It is wayyyyy past my bedtime, so I will post more tomorrow.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I was disappointed to find out that they aren't allowing scooters in the Space Ranger ride line at the MK anymore. I was given the reason that they line was too narrow but I have taken my scooter into that line every trip up until this time and never had any problem whatsoever maneuvering through that line.

I have a similar issue with Tower of Terror at DHS (but not DCA). I know I can get the ECV through the mainstream line - because I did it by accident once. The Greeter was working with some Guests, and since I knew where to go frommthe olden days on foot - I went. No problem.

Turns out, because the WDW rental scooters are bulkier and don't fit, they won't allow any ECV to use that entrance. You need to transfer. Tough when you're solo with not a lot of upper body strength. Even after I met up with the Attraction Lead at closing (prearranged with Guest Services, I'm not quiet ) and demonstrated it's navigable.

The DCA ToT queue truly is mainstreamed.

 

[Friendly Frog]

Kaytieeldr, Did I say that?

Doesn't matter, it is true and it is not the only ride entrance they have changed from ECV access to manual transfer access. I travel alone to WDW and I can not push my self in a chair. When I have approached CM's telling them that my ECV will fit just fine , I will not bump into their posts, ( though I wish some of the walkers could move their feet, and bums off of my side of the roap) and that I can not push myself in a chair, I have been told " Sorry, then you can not ride"


ECV ride access is shrinking and I am getting more and more pushed out of the ability to ride. I have traveled some of those lines in THEIR ECV's and still did not have a problem with the line, so I am not convinced on the real motive to limit ECV ride line access. I think this is something that we need to question and call them on. Or at least request that they provide an alternative that would allow us to access to the load area. Let me wait in the line, or provide me a quick access method to load, please.


Do not remove roads because some people can not drive.

 

[Friendly Frog]

While I understand and agree that ECVs are heaver than strollers and people, and an impact can potentially be more serious, I take exception to what I feel is a trend to exaggerate.

Please let me take a moment to address some to the things that do get under my skin a bit.

There are some scooters that go 5 mph and weigh up to 450 lbs. (or more).

Are you sure about this? Maybe there are, but that is certainly NOT the average scooter that you see in WDW. I believe in the link you provided to the HEAVY DUTY- HIGH WEIGHT CAPACITY - WHEELCHAIR states;
•Weight capacity: 450 lbs.
•Weight: 281.5 lbs.

Even with the correct weight listed, I don't think you see many of these chairs with WDW. My scooter weight is 96 lbs.


Going at 5 mph and weighing 450lbs (281.5) (plus the weight of the guest)
can do a lot of damage to the person it hits as opposed to the average double-wide stroller average weight under 25lbs & the weight of the child (and most only hold up to total weight of under 100lbs)

OK, I am not going to search for large stroller weights, but neither did you. You didn't even use the heaviest double stroller on the site you linked to. You have thusly exagerated the compairison.


and normally do not go 5 miles per hour (unless in a marathon).

I don't think most chairs and ECV's are normally traveling at over 5 miles per house either. My won't even do 5 mph.

I am not saying that a stroller will not hurt, but they cannot kill, a scooter can.

Actually a stroller knocking over a child could cause head damage and death. Heck I won't list all the things at WDW that could kill you if not used correctly.

I don't think that Disney is singling out a Disability, after all, not everyone in them have the same Disability.

I think it is more of how it was written . It felt like it took an attitude that the ECV user is the only one who needs to share space safely in the park. I still feel a large number of bumps and accidents people on ECV's have are acually caused by those on two legs.

Disney can easily say no electric scooters.[/U] ADA states equal.. and a manual chair is equal, electric is much easier true, but manual is all that ADA standards will back anyone on. They cannot force Disney to take the electric.. or at least I don't think they can.

I am new to all of this so I have not yet read through all the laws/rules, but you may be correct. It does seem that Disney is shutting down more and more ride access to the ECV. Very sad trend to me since this will greatly impact the number of trips I make. I travel alone and do not have the upper body strength to push a manual chair,. Sad that the ADA could not protect my needs?


These ( Electric chairs-new users) are the ones who need these fliers but Disney cannot just single them out. That is discrimination! [/B]

Not sure about this but I still think that if Disney decides to address the safety issue then they need to address the fact that the population is aging and ECV need will increase. That all guests need to learn to safely share the space. Education of risks and responsibilites need to be pointed out to everyone. Walkers need to be reminded not to stop in the middle of the roads or curb ramps and to look down and to the side for ECV's when walking. Just like cars need to watch more carfully for motorcycles. COLOR]

Honestly I don't think the flyer is worth the paper is was printed on. Those who do those stupid dangerous thing most likely are not going to read that flier given to them at the turnstile. Those who do pull over to read it, most likely will be the personality type that is already cautious.


As I have been told by many on here to hang in their while the kinks are worked out at the HM with the GAC card for those with invisible disabilities, I am asking you all to hang in there with this flyer. Give Disney a chance to see if it helps those who really need these... not you.. you all know the right way to use them

Aren't you the person who is so frustrated with Disney's handling of your disability that you are threatening to let yourself fall just so Disney can "see" your disability? Please don't add to our frustration by sensationalizing the facts. :flower3 I don't need a pample telling me not to be stupid any more than you need one to tell you not to step on someone. A pamplet at the turnstyle is not the answer to the problem. Personal responsibility is the answer. Than includes the walking public standing at the bottom of the wheelchair ramp at The Land.


BTW, just a couple of other items to note. As far as "give the pamplet to rentals". Many experienced ECV users rent so they don't have to worry about their device being damaged. Many who only rent are cautious and safe.

I know that when Disney rents they show people the speed control knob. THAT is the single most important piece of information that a first time ECV user needs to know, yet that piece of information was either lacking on the pamplet or buired so deep in the pamplets laundry list that I stopped reading before I saw it.

If Disney want's to make things a little safer in the parks, they should start by createing ECV only roaped off lanes for those devices to exit the parks at closing. ( Think Fantismic) This one simply, inexpensively done thing would go a long way in keeping those "dangerious heavy devices" from bumping guests that stop suddenly, or walk into, over, cut across an ECV.

 

[bedogged]

"Disney can easily say no electric scooters.[/U] ADA states equal.. and a manual chair is equal, electric is much easier true, but manual is all that ADA standards will back anyone on. They cannot force Disney to take the electric.. or at least I don't think they can."

Aside from the ADA problems this would cause, does anyone really think that Disney would be willing to give up the revenue that renting ECVs gives them?

 

[Friendly Frog]

I will give my experience and perspective as a "walker".

I find the vast majority of individuals that use a mobility device to be exceptionally considerate, patient and cautious. There are those "newbie drivers" who are simply distracted by managing the unfamiliar demand of the device or lack driving proficiency, but if you are at all observant, they are easy to spot and give some extra room.As an Aspie who is trying to navigate WDW with a child with a non visible disability, I am often "distracted" and bump into and get pumped into by people, Quite honestly is not a big deal. I have been clipped by mobility devices and even had my foot run up on. Yes it hurts a little, but is not that big a deal, and I certainly do not get upset since to a major portion I have most of the responsibility. When I do have my act together I try to be extra considerate.

As for the pamphlet, I entirely understand why this one sided targeting would be considered discriminatory (not to motion not very effective). I am all for broad education and reinforcement of everyone being considerate, but that applies and is valuable for everyone.

I am guessing that this was not developed through the "disability team" since they know better, but was a "park" initiated item.

Bless you!

 

[Friendly Frog]

Also keep in mind not everyone is expecting an ECV to come up behind them. It's just like at home the one thing I can't stand is someone who honks a horn at you from an ECV or yells at you move out of the way as if they are more important then you. People in ECV's need to look out for pedestrians not the other way around.[/QUOTE]

If you are in Disney you should expect an ECV to come up behind you. You should also not walk backwards unless you look first.

Sometimes they are honking or yelling at you because you are walking like a drunk person and they are trying to let you know to "please stop stepping in front of me again and again". Walk straight and we both will be safer. Or maybe they are saying " Do you really have to walk 4 breast with your group. I am one person and I really would like to pass you so that you don't stop suddenly in front of me again so that you can read your park map".


All guests need to look out for each other! More people need to take some personal responsibility. "I don't need to watch for you" is the exact attitude that creates problems.
BTW-It is scary enough in this day and age worrying about some money grubbing nut case who may suddenly step front of an ECV them blame the driver for being hit. Thank Goodness that a lot of cameras are around to help prevent this. If anyone tried this stunt on me they would face a big time counter suit. Maybe for defamation , extortion, or aggravation of my condition. (And I am a person who does not believe in BS lawsuits over minor injuries.)

 

[SueM in MN]

"Disney can easily say no electric scooters.[/U] ADA states equal.. and a manual chair is equal, electric is much easier true, but manual is all that ADA standards will back anyone on. They cannot force Disney to take the electric.. or at least I don't think they can."

Aside from the ADA problems this would cause, does anyone really think that Disney would be willing to give up the revenue that renting ECVs gives them?

Especially since they got the current ones quite a while ago - I think 2007, so they paid for them a long time ago.