Plans have been filed for DVC expansion at Caribbean Beach Resort

[dlavender]

We've stayed at all of the mods and CBR was by far our least favorite. I was VERY surprised that this one was chosen for DVD when the others have a lot more going for them.

What would be the incentive to buy there? I don't see it

I personally like it, but it's the cheapest MOD room price wise.

Since the demand doesn't seem to be there, this would be the one where you could remove rooms and sell DVC instead. With less rooms available, they could at least price it back up with POR.

 

[sachilles]

Someone up thread mentioned a ski lift type conveyance. At first I thought that might be a good option, as you could easily connect CBR to both epcot and DHS with one mechanism.
Even with a high speed detachable quad(or six pack), I'm not sure it moves enough people. It would be a bit of challenge for the limited mobility folks, and scooter sure won't go it. Gondolas don't move enough people if the vessel is that big, as it limits the amount of vessels on the haulrope, and load and unload times would be large. You have weather conditions in florida that would make it less desirable. Rain isn't the issue but wind and electrical storms are big issue.
If you are going to do a water canal, and you can't go the short route to between the african outpost and germany, you'd have to go along beuna vista drive, which seems to long to be practical, BUT there isn't anything there currently save road crossings. It's about 0.7 miles.
If you are to tie into the existing path, you could create another walking path along that road. So that is 0.7 miles, it's another 0.6 miles to the international gateway and about 0.4 miles to the current DHS gate. That is too far to walk for most. If you put a moving walkway to the canal from CBR, the guest still must walk half a mile to get to a park.

I don't see any light rail happening just to serve cbr alone. Only thing that works is if you do some sort of trolley or light rail that goes from the canal to disney springs on buena vista. I suppose you could add Coranado to that pipe dream. You'd also need a dock along the canal stop to make that a practical intersection.

All evidence suggest it doesn't make sense to put a 3rd entrance by Germany despite the easy proximity. The other options, don't seem practical either.

So what other options exist besides no change to transportation.

 

[HopperFan]

I do have to say I think they are going to treat the CBR DVC separate from everything else at that resort. Maybe even give it its own entrance simply because it is so different then other DVC resorts.

THIS.. If you look at the areas marked in yellow where the work will be done. The Port Royale building/parking area .... but not pool. It makes sense that they will move the front desk etc to a building here (where it should be) and demolish the old one. CBR could easily have a new entrance via the existing one on Victory Drive. Again looking at the areas in yellow, this would allow the "DVC" property to be apart (other than some lake shoreline) from CBR and have it's entrance on Buena Vista Drive. Two completely different resorts, new part may have no theme or name connection to CBR.

As someone who works in real estate development, this makes zero sense to me. The cost of building a "deluxe" resort versus a "moderate" resort wouldn't be all that different. The major expenses (labor, foundation, etc) would be the same for both and we all know Disney "deluxe" resorts aren't all that deluxe compared to industry standards. The extra theming that goes into a deluxe resort doesn't cost huge dollars.

I think if it is a DVC resort, it will be marketed as deluxe even if it sits within/next to a moderate. No reason for them to sell fewer points for something that costs about the same to build.

Unless, maybe, they forgo villas altogether and just build regular hotel rooms (~300 sf) and charge a few points less than they do for studios. That could make financial sense if they build a bunch of them.

Agree.

To add to the discussion of what is happening at CBR, we have also seen a permit recently that a significant change is also coming to Coronado Springs. That permit shows a lot of re-configuration of the storm water ponds to make way for something, although we don't know what the something is.

And the closure of the Business Class Rooms, an entire building right by this proposed area.

We've stayed at all of the mods and CBR was by far our least favorite. I was VERY surprised that this one was chosen for DVC when the others have a lot more going for them.

What would be the incentive to buy there? I don't see it. Direct access doesn't feel like enough.

Agree, but maybe we are all just too shortsighted....

Any given time I am looking for a moderate room, often the CBR rooms are much lower priced.
CBR is included in just about any big tour group booking.
MANY fans, but even Disney seems to look at it as the bottom rung of moderates.

Just imagining .....

The South Florida Water permit works will take a couple years.
The next round of construction permits for new "DVC" will take a few more years.
What if first off they got the area by Port Royale ready for new simple construction (check in?)
While reconstructing the Victory Drive entrance to be the new entrance.
Then they close the buildings in the "DVC" area and get to work.
So maybe 5 years from now the "DVC" is all done, self contained with no connection to CBR.
CBR could remain a smaller sleeps 5 moderate and with less rooms maybe more a demand.
There is the strange land across from Pirates rooms with a yellow line.
Maybe they would expand the resort there I mean it's not connected to the "DVC" area.
Or maybe there is a Phase II where the rest of CBR will be demolished for "DVC" expansion.

 

[skier_pete]

I can accept arguments of "they can't enter there because that's where the firework barges are" and such.

But to say it CAN'T be done...I don't agree. IF there's money to be made from it, they'll find a way to do it. That's why I suggested some sort of shuttle. I think a canal is unlikely. They have to traverse a major roadway and also enter backstage to a park. However, they certainly could make some sort of very basic tramway with a bridge to get into the park. Even something like an elevated enclosed moving walkway. (Sure - ADA compliant as well.) They could easily do the security/ticketing on the DVC end, and leave a relatively small footprint in Epcot. See my drawing below. The distance as I measure in this drawing is a mere 700 feet. The backstage area between the canal storage and Germany could have a small offload area that is screened /hedged off, and as I said if you made it an enclosed moving walkway you would never see the backstage area. (Does this area next to Germany look at all in use to you?)

Seriously folks - the difference between what you could charge for a DVC at Caribbean Beach and what you could charge for a DVC at Caribbean beach with direct access to World Showcase with a 5 minute ride? Talk about easy to justify the CapEx. If we are talking 14 points per night instead of 10 points per night (basis) that's an increase of 40% in points. Bay Lake Tower has 5.7 million points. 40% of that is 2.3 million points more to sell. At $180 a point - that's $400 million in Disney's pocket by making a "Park connected DVC" versus an "OKW/SSR style DVC". You think they can't solve that path for $400 million dollar?

 

[Iowamomof4]

The fact that CBR is, I agree, generally the lowest rung of the moderates might make it the perfect place for an upgrade. I've read countless stories of people who were given free upgrades to deluxe resorts because their room(s) at CBR were unlivable (smell, moldy, etc...). We stayed there in 2015 and our rooms were okay, though the carpet near the a/c unit was moist the whole time. Anyway, I'm just wondering if the powers that be are seeing a need for major work at CBR in the near future and figure this is the right time and location to add their next dvc resort. POR and POFQ already have a lot going for them and apparently have no trouble filling up, even at full price, why would they take rooms out of circulation to add in dvc? CBR doesn't have the same appeal and does need work (apparently, based on the aforementioned smell and mold issues).

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You know in reality CBR is right next to Epcot, but the entrance isn't. A short canal less than 1/2 mile long would connect CRB to Epcot, BW, DHS, etc... The biggest complaint I hear about CBR is that is too big and busing is terrible and that is what you are talking about. A 5 -10 minute boat ride eliminates that. We are likely talking about a CBR DVC and you know how popular Epcot DVC's are during F&W. It fits your criteria of filling rooms and being able to charge a higher price. You do it now so you CBR can take advantage of increased demand when DHS is completed and rumored Epcot renovation takes place. Direct Access is the key and you already said what the going rate is for a room with direct access to the parks. I would think the suits would go for doubling the price of rooms at CBR.

Caribbean as currently built isn't worth anywhere close to what they are already charging...let alone an increase. They'd have to completely start from scratch to sell that...and then what about pop and AOA? Direct access for $100 a night? It won't work.

 

[wilkeliza]

I can accept arguments of "they can't enter there because that's where the firework barges are" and such.

But to say it CAN'T be done...I don't agree. IF there's money to be made from it, they'll find a way to do it. That's why I suggested some sort of shuttle. I think a canal is unlikely. They have to traverse a major roadway and also enter backstage to a park. However, they certainly could make some sort of very basic tramway with a bridge to get into the park. Even something like an elevated enclosed moving walkway. (Sure - ADA compliant as well.) They could easily do the security/ticketing on the DVC end, and leave a relatively small footprint in Epcot. See my drawing below. The distance as I measure in this drawing is a mere 700 feet. The backstage area between the canal storage and Germany could have a small offload area that is screened /hedged off, and as I said if you made it an enclosed moving walkway you would never see the backstage area. (Does this area next to Germany look at all in use to you?)

Seriously folks - the difference between what you could charge for a DVC at Caribbean Beach and what you could charge for a DVC at Caribbean beach with direct access to World Showcase with a 5 minute ride? Talk about easy to justify the CapEx. If we are talking 14 points per night instead of 10 points per night (basis) that's an increase of 40% in points. Bay Lake Tower has 5.7 million points. 40% of that is 2.3 million points more to sell. At $180 a point - that's $400 million in Disney's pocket by making a "Park connected DVC" versus an "OKW/SSR style DVC". You think they can't solve that path for $400 million dollar?

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It isn't just the fireworks barges and the water way/road ways it is the logistics of having an entrance there. Sure they could figure it out but I just don't see it happening. Also they don't want to solve that path with the $400 million in profit. The would want all of that in their pocket. So getting that money and only making exactly what they would have if they hadn't done that would make 0 sense. The sheer logistics of an entry point there would be crazy especially with the need to hide a large backstage area, cross over active roadways, have a security check point, and an entrance. Think about how close DAK is to to AKL kidanni and jambo and they didn't suddenly get a path way or private entrance to DAK.

 

[DBDiz]

I can accept arguments of "they can't enter there because that's where the firework barges are" and such.

But to say it CAN'T be done...I don't agree. IF there's money to be made from it, they'll find a way to do it. That's why I suggested some sort of shuttle. I think a canal is unlikely. They have to traverse a major roadway and also enter backstage to a park. However, they certainly could make some sort of very basic tramway with a bridge to get into the park. Even something like an elevated enclosed moving walkway. (Sure - ADA compliant as well.) They could easily do the security/ticketing on the DVC end, and leave a relatively small footprint in Epcot. See my drawing below. The distance as I measure in this drawing is a mere 700 feet. The backstage area between the canal storage and Germany could have a small offload area that is screened /hedged off, and as I said if you made it an enclosed moving walkway you would never see the backstage area. (Does this area next to Germany look at all in use to you?)

Seriously folks - the difference between what you could charge for a DVC at Caribbean Beach and what you could charge for a DVC at Caribbean beach with direct access to World Showcase with a 5 minute ride? Talk about easy to justify the CapEx. If we are talking 14 points per night instead of 10 points per night (basis) that's an increase of 40% in points. Bay Lake Tower has 5.7 million points. 40% of that is 2.3 million points more to sell. At $180 a point - that's $400 million in Disney's pocket by making a "Park connected DVC" versus an "OKW/SSR style DVC". You think they can't solve that path for $400 million dollar?

View attachment 216035

I would have to imagine that the upcoming Epcot refurb would include a new fireworks show, which means retiring Illuminations. I don't see them building an isolated theater a la HS or AK, but they could certainly relocate the prep area if need be, especially if it helps them provide direct park access to a new DVC property.

 

[HopperFan]

I can accept arguments of "they can't enter there because that's where the firework barges are" and such.
[/ATTACH]

Completely agree there are options here.
The proximity is way too close to ignore the possibility.
Agree it can be a game changer on price.
And they are moving Chelonia Parkway East,
so it widens the area they can work within.

And who knows, with all the "rumors" of Illuminations going ...
by time this thing is built they could easy have a new show, drones maybe,
and this area would make the perfect entry way.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I can accept arguments of "they can't enter there because that's where the firework barges are" and such.

But to say it CAN'T be done...I don't agree. IF there's money to be made from it, they'll find a way to do it. That's why I suggested some sort of shuttle. I think a canal is unlikely. They have to traverse a major roadway and also enter backstage to a park. However, they certainly could make some sort of very basic tramway with a bridge to get into the park. Even something like an elevated enclosed moving walkway. (Sure - ADA compliant as well.) They could easily do the security/ticketing on the DVC end, and leave a relatively small footprint in Epcot. See my drawing below. The distance as I measure in this drawing is a mere 700 feet. The backstage area between the canal storage and Germany could have a small offload area that is screened /hedged off, and as I said if you made it an enclosed moving walkway you would never see the backstage area. (Does this area next to Germany look at all in use to you?)

Seriously folks - the difference between what you could charge for a DVC at Caribbean Beach and what you could charge for a DVC at Caribbean beach with direct access to World Showcase with a 5 minute ride? Talk about easy to justify the CapEx. If we are talking 14 points per night instead of 10 points per night (basis) that's an increase of 40% in points. Bay Lake Tower has 5.7 million points. 40% of that is 2.3 million points more to sell. At $180 a point - that's $400 million in Disney's pocket by making a "Park connected DVC" versus an "OKW/SSR style DVC". You think they can't solve that path for $400 million dollar?

View attachment 216035

I am sure they could do that ... they sort of have that with the separate entrance to Disneyland via the monorail ... just imagine at the top is a moving walkway instead of the monorail:

Plus, on top of the profits you mention if the allow the regular CBR guests to use this entrance you could charge a lot more for those rooms, especially during F&WF - imagine directly going in and out of WS during F&WF?

 

[rteetz]

All current rumors indicate that Disney looked at the possibility for a direct access into Epcot but they threw it out likely after logistics and costs.

Sure it could be done but as of right now I don't see it happening.

 

[rteetz]

And who knows, with all the "rumors" of Illuminations going ...
by time this thing is built they could easy have a new show, drones maybe,
and this area would make the perfect entry way.

Many rumors indicate we might just see a new version of illuminations rather than a whole brand new show. Drones would just be an addition not the entire show.

 

[LaidBackDad]

I don't buy all this talk about they can't do this or that. It's not like they are trying to create a night time musical light show that doesn't scare the animals. Building a 1/4 mile canal to connect CBR to Epcot (and DHS, BW, etc...) is routine stuff. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be without it's share of problems but it's not like they have never built a bridge so cars could pass over a waterway before. With the canal there is no need for a 3rd entrance because it would connect to the International Gate and it doesn't disrupt any of the backstage work or storage. Of course all this is premature because no permits have been filed yet,but such a simple project wouldn't take that long for construction, so it makes sense.

 

[Joben]

IF there's money to be made from it, they'll find a way to do it.

Agree !00%
This is way too promising of an incentive for them.

As Max Rebo points out, the thirst for quick and easy access to Epcot is strong. There is Food and Wine, Flower and Garden, The new "food" event they just started doing which I can't remember the name to, and I'm sure more will be added as these events have proven to be popular and good money makers. Also some Run Disney events start at Epcot and demand for hotels nearby for those early starts are big.

Building a covered elevated bridge all of 700 feet, not very difficult in my opinion. You don't have to worry about park goers seeing backstage by simply enclosing it. The only problem would be theming it from the perspective of Epcot. Putting in a Caribbean pavilion next to Germany would take care of that. The beer garden may have to be sacrificed (or moved behind the trains) and there are two backstage structures that would have to be moved.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I am sure they could do that ... they sort of have that with the separate entrance to Disneyland via the monorail ... just imagine at the top is a moving walkway instead of the monorail:

Plus, on top of the profits you mention if the allow the regular CBR guests to use this entrance you could charge a lot more for those rooms, especially during F&WF - imagine directly going in and out of WS during F&WF?

You're way "overhead" heavy on your grandiose plans, slugger...

They aren't gonna bleed stock price longterm with such an elaborate setup.

No way the current management puts up with that downtown Disney entrance and monorail extension at Disneyland now...I'm sure bigshot bobby gets aggravated everytime he has to see it.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

We've stayed at all of the mods and CBR was by far our least favorite. I was VERY surprised that this one was chosen for DVC when the others have a lot more going for them.

What would be the incentive to buy there? I don't see it. Direct access doesn't feel like enough.

This is the elephant in this room

 

[OKW Lover]

The difference in terms of walking from BC to the studios is that you don't have to, you can take the boat.

Isn't the walk to the YC dock from BCV further than the walk directly to International Gateway?

 

[DisFanDad]

That's what I meant by make the resort cheaper...they have to make the DVC resort cheaper.
Yes, I agree. They would have to essentially make the rooms the lowest point rooms in the DVC system. Probably starting out at 7 or 8 points a night. The problem is construction costs remain the same, so unless they shrink the room sizes as well and pack more rooms in the same footprint...and that's a whole nother problem.

This is olny a problem if they make the point totals high like SSR. If the point totals are low, you'll get the opposite effect. DVC members looking for a cheaper nights stay will be flocking there. Not everyone, but people that can't afford a 1 or 2 bedroom unit normally will flock there. Why I am so curious to see what they do.

That's not crazy...that makes the most sense...you connect the canals...or a rail to the canals at the entrance to mgm...that's all being reworked anyway.
But...there is the "price" issue...

You guys made some great points, but I have to disagree that this in anyway becomes a "Moderate" DVC (if its indeed a DVC, which it probably is).

They can't make the points per night too low, as noted current owners will flock here, it will become an absolute mess and it will, to some extent, devalue the other DVC options.

They can't make the cost per point too low, for the same reason.

They can't make this a second tier of DVC ownership, without, again breaking the model. The whole sales pitch about interchangeability, and potentially angering a whole group of current and potential future owners.

Basically, they can't really do much, other than sink enough money into this project to make it WORTHY of DVC, without breaking the DVC concept.

I don't think making the comparison to CBR is really the issue in selling this, making the comparison to other DVC and deluxe level resorts will be the big issue. As long as its labeled as "deluxe" its deluxe. The fact that there will be lowly moderate guests a stones throw away I don't think will be much of an issue in the sales pitches. If they build ANY kind of access to EPCOT, MGM, or both, that would be a massive plus for the resort, as well as if they have the potential viewing deck for fireworks, etc. It appears by the plans there are several buildings going in, and I am sure they would include new amenities/restaurants as well.

 

[mcd2745]

I can accept arguments of "they can't enter there because that's where the firework barges are" and such.

But to say it CAN'T be done...I don't agree. IF there's money to be made from it, they'll find a way to do it. That's why I suggested some sort of shuttle. I think a canal is unlikely. They have to traverse a major roadway and also enter backstage to a park. However, they certainly could make some sort of very basic tramway with a bridge to get into the park. Even something like an elevated enclosed moving walkway. (Sure - ADA compliant as well.) They could easily do the security/ticketing on the DVC end, and leave a relatively small footprint in Epcot. See my drawing below. The distance as I measure in this drawing is a mere 700 feet. The backstage area between the canal storage and Germany could have a small offload area that is screened /hedged off, and as I said if you made it an enclosed moving walkway you would never see the backstage area. (Does this area next to Germany look at all in use to you?)

Seriously folks - the difference between what you could charge for a DVC at Caribbean Beach and what you could charge for a DVC at Caribbean beach with direct access to World Showcase with a 5 minute ride? Talk about easy to justify the CapEx. If we are talking 14 points per night instead of 10 points per night (basis) that's an increase of 40% in points. Bay Lake Tower has 5.7 million points. 40% of that is 2.3 million points more to sell. At $180 a point - that's $400 million in Disney's pocket by making a "Park connected DVC" versus an "OKW/SSR style DVC". You think they can't solve that path for $400 million dollar?

View attachment 216035

Looking at that picture, my initial thought was something like the Roosevelt Island tram here in NYC (anyone remember the old Sly Stallone move "Nighthawks"?) would be ideal, not to mention pretty darn cool. However, I quickly thought of a major problem with that - the clear aerial views of backstage areas. So any direct access would likely have to be at ground level somehow.

 

[Planogirl]

I can accept arguments of "they can't enter there because that's where the firework barges are" and such.

But to say it CAN'T be done...I don't agree. IF there's money to be made from it, they'll find a way to do it. That's why I suggested some sort of shuttle. I think a canal is unlikely. They have to traverse a major roadway and also enter backstage to a park. However, they certainly could make some sort of very basic tramway with a bridge to get into the park. Even something like an elevated enclosed moving walkway. (Sure - ADA compliant as well.) They could easily do the security/ticketing on the DVC end, and leave a relatively small footprint in Epcot. See my drawing below. The distance as I measure in this drawing is a mere 700 feet. The backstage area between the canal storage and Germany could have a small offload area that is screened /hedged off, and as I said if you made it an enclosed moving walkway you would never see the backstage area. (Does this area next to Germany look at all in use to you?)

Seriously folks - the difference between what you could charge for a DVC at Caribbean Beach and what you could charge for a DVC at Caribbean beach with direct access to World Showcase with a 5 minute ride? Talk about easy to justify the CapEx. If we are talking 14 points per night instead of 10 points per night (basis) that's an increase of 40% in points. Bay Lake Tower has 5.7 million points. 40% of that is 2.3 million points more to sell. At $180 a point - that's $400 million in Disney's pocket by making a "Park connected DVC" versus an "OKW/SSR style DVC". You think they can't solve that path for $400 million dollar?

View attachment 216035

The Port Orleans resorts already have easy access to what is turning into a nice area. I could see them adding onto them for DVC but not CBR. Whatever happens will be interesting.

One element that would be missing are the amenities open to everyone. I imagine that DVC owners go to restaurants, bars and the main pool like everyone else. Will the CBR have any of that?