School choice

[pat fan]

Aren't you in Mass?

Yes I am. Do you seriously believe the system is not rigged at all?? If so, I am happy for you and you're experience. I'll leave it at that.

 

[mummabear]

It isn't about entitlement. Some parents are indeed just too busy. The single mom working 3 jobs with no family around her is going to unfortunately too busy. The mom and dad working alternate shifts to make sure someone is always home but that the bills are also paid are going to often be too busy. We aren't talking parents who are too busy because they would rather go to yoga and book club then advocate for their kids. We are talking about the parents who desperately want to advocate and be there for their kids but can't if they also want to put food on the table, a roof over their head, and utilities running. There are a ton of these families all across America. They don't want someone else to fix their problem they just need a system that understands their problems and doesn't fault their kids for it.

I dont buy that in an entire school there isn't a handful of parents that can take the time to organise fundraisers.
At our school of 500 this is done by a group of 8.
I have no issue with pooling shared funds but I do think it's wrong for one school to be putting nothing in and expecting a share.

 

[bcla]

I am grateful that I got to observe school choice without being subject to it.

I don't know if it was school choice per se, but my district hired a new superintendent who had grand ideas. It happened just after I left, but they eventually turned most of the high schools and middle schools into magnet schools of one type or another. One was supposed to be a science and technology magnet, while mine was supposed to be an arts and letters magnet. It turned into somewhat of a disaster because they overspent on it. It hadn't been implemented yet, but one of my science teachers was openly discussing how unhappy she was that she as a science teacher might be teaching at a school where the better science students might be jumping ship. It was a largish school district, but not one large enough that there could be a few magnet schools interspersed among many general high schools. Basically every high school had to turn into a magnet school.

I mentioned they overspent. What then happened was that they went bankrupt and went into receivership under the state. The superintendent was fired along the way, although he got hired by another district (which also fired him). The main problem was that he promised a lot and actually managed to deliver. However, he never really thought out how the district would pay for it.

 

[Colleen27]

I have philosophical and moral objections to things the gov already does and pays for so that's a bridge we have already crossed.

The difference is that separation of church and state is a Constitutional tenet, so the objection to directing public school dollars to religious education is generally regarded as having more legal standing than other, more general objections to specific government programs.

Tax dollars already go to for profit-seeking enterprises such as private colleges, private hospitals, military contracts, etc.

And look how that has worked out in higher ed... just about every serious analysis of the student loan situation points out the inferior status of private for-profit colleges on just about every measure. They're more expensive, actively facilitate higher borrowing, and their degrees are less valuable in the workforce. Several have been shut down and sued. Others have been excluded from receiving federal student aid dollars. Is that a model we want to copy on the K-12 level?

Ok, I guess I miss the point your making here. We can't help middle class?

Why should we? What makes giving kids who already have access to decent schools a handout to get them into good or great schools a more worthy use of limited educational dollars than concentrating on ways to improve poor and failing schools? Vouchers are like proposing food stamps to help middle income families who can't afford to go organic while leaving poor families to go hungry.

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

The difference is that separation of church and state is a Constitutional tenet, so the objection to directing public school dollars to religious education is generally regarded as having more legal standing than other, more general objections to specific government programs..

Separation of church and state is to stop the state from establishing a state religion. As long as they wouldn't discriminate against different religious organizations forming schools, I wouldn't see the problem.

And look how that has worked out in higher ed... just about every serious analysis of the student loan situation points out the inferior status of private for-profit colleges on just about every measure. They're more expensive, actively facilitate higher borrowing, and their degrees are less valuable in the workforce. Several have been shut down and sued. Others have been excluded from receiving federal student aid dollars. Is that a model we want to copy on the K-12 level?.

I don't know, but I know something needs to be changed. What we're currently doing works for some but honestly theirs a lot of room for improvement.

Why should we? What makes giving kids who already have access to decent schools a handout to get them into good or great schools a more worthy use of limited educational dollars than concentrating on ways to improve poor and failing schools? Vouchers are like proposing food stamps to help middle income families who can't afford to go organic while leaving poor families to go hungry.

Why shouldn't the middle class receive help also? Last I checked they also pay taxes.

 

[AustinMommyofThree]

Your correct in that everyone's taxes are paid to educate all children. I don't see a problem with allowing for the choice to choose how or where those taxes pay for that education. The child gets educated and we're all still paying taxes, what changed?

But then what if I want a voucher for the portion of my taxes that go to the defense budget and the ability to direct those funds to agencies that promote national defense through the teaching of tolerance and economic investment to foster stronger global partnerships. The nation is still safe and we're all still paying taxes, so what changed? And what about if somebody else wants their contributions to the highway funds invested in city streets, instead, because they don't drive on the highways? Taxes just cannot work that way, in my opinion, without either cherrypicking our personal causes or having total chaos.

 

[Suger Mag]

Yes I am. Do you seriously believe the system is not rigged at all?? If so, I am happy for you and you're experience. I'll leave it at that.

Yes, at least in the schools that I have personal knowledge of, I am pretty sure it is fair. How else does an autistic kid with severe language processing issues get admitted to a Chinese immersion school? There were plenty of kids at that school who would not have been ... how shall we say it... on the desired student list if the point was to 'rig' and avoid special needs students. Yes...siblings of current get preferred admittance. But at least the three schools I mentioned, do not themselves conduct the lotteries, To keep it above board an outside entity independent of the school is hired to conduct the lotteries, Pretty straightforward. Parents are invited and witness the names being drawn.

 

[punkin]

I have no issue with pooling shared funds but I do think it's wrong for one school to be putting nothing in and expecting a share.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" Karl Marx.

 

[punkin]

My girls did a mix of private (religious and secular) and public. For one child, public school was a disaster, but I recognize that it mostly works for the vast majority. I'm not sure I'm informed enough about school choice to have an opinion.

 

[aristocatz]

I am a fan of school choice, as long as it doesn't take away from state and federal funding for struggling public school districts. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose of calling it a "choice."

 

[mummabear]

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" Karl Marx.

But ability largely can be determined by choice, my family makes the choice for me to be a stay at home parent so I can dedicate time to our children.
We do this at a financial sacrifice, my peers who work sacrifice time to earn money. So why should they get the benefit of their earnings and the benefit of my time?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Well I really hope we can keep politics out of this post, as I am genuinely curious to hear others experiences.

Of course this is stemming from the recent events. I live in upstate NY and this is an area where we have no charter or magnet schools that I am aware of, so we are entirely publicly educated. There are some private religious schools but maybe only one that I can think of where I live.

So I am quite insulated from the idea of school choice and all I hear is the negative side. I'd like to hear from some of you (perhaps in the south?) who have had school choice and whether you think it's beneficial or not.

I truly do not mean to stir up any angst, so mods I apologize if this gets heated. It is my hope to just be educated from all sides.

I had school choice in the early 90s. It was nice. It was a magnet school and you had to test to get in. My zoned school did not have as many options and it frustrated my mom.

Near where I live now in Florida, there are also "magnet"
Schools. But too my knowledge, they are lottery based. This evens the playing field a little. Bussing is offered, so where you live is not necessarily a negative.
The difference magnet schools specialize in
Different things. For example--one is science focused. Another is arts/performance based. (No audition needed. I believe it is also
Lottery.)

Magnet schools are not a new thing and school choice just seems a natural
Progression.

There is a documentary called Waiting for Superman that is eye opening about lottery based choice.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I am a fan of school choice, as long as it doesn't take away from state and federal funding for struggling public school districts. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose of calling it a "choice."

This confuses me and perhaps some can answer. Maybe it varies by state--but I had thought, perhaps incorrectly, that money only goes to the school for actual students in the seat? So if the student opted to pay for private school, the school "loses" money anyway.

 

[Govols1997]

1. Haven't read all responses.

2. My kids are in a private school.

I'm a fan of school choice, but I hope my kids school doesn't get involved/take vouchers. With that $comes government rules and we left public school to get the government out of our kids education.

 

[DisneyOma]

I have no idea to the special needs aspect, so I can't comment. However, As to non-English speaking, I'll speak plainly, I don't care. Just being honest, I'm not going to slow down my child's education because a family migrated, then refuses to learn the common language.

Refuses to learn the common language? Do you know how long it takes to learn enough vocabulary to understand a high school level class? Maybe you should go to another country (Japan, perhaps, or Norway, maybe China) and try to take a high school class in Biology. Then you could understand the difficulty and effort it takes to be able to learn in a different language.

I work with special needs students from war-torn countries who are in their second, maybe third, year of learning English. On top of that they are taking math, science, social studies, etc. They have to learn that the mitochondria are organelles in all eukaryotic cells, and that the mitochondria produce adenosine triphosphate, which gets broken down into adenosine diphosphate to release stored energy. Oh, and that they might have once been prokaryotic, and got absorbed by other prokaryotic cells to produce the first eukaryote.

These kids amaze me with their effort, their heart, their graciousness when they get help. They are so grateful to be here, safe, fed, not being threatened by what is going on in the countries they escaped from. They are not here with any parents - either orphaned or sent away as the one who might get a chance to live. (This is a generalization - not info from any particular student, per FERPA)

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

But ability largely can be determined by choice, my family makes the choice for me to be a stay at home parent so I can dedicate time to our children.
We do this at a financial sacrifice, my peers who work sacrifice time to earn money. So why should they get the benefit of their earnings and the benefit of my time?

If everyone thought like that, nobody would ever volunteer for anything.

Separation of church and state is to stop the state from establishing a state religion. As long as they wouldn't discriminate against different religious organizations forming schools, I wouldn't see the problem.
.

Government giving money to a religious school is tacitly endorsing the religion.

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

Refuses to learn the common language? Do you know how long it takes to learn enough vocabulary to understand a high school level class? Maybe you should go to another country (Japan, perhaps, or Norway, maybe China) and try to take a high school class in Biology. Then you could understand the difficulty and effort it takes to be able to learn in a different language.

I work with special needs students from war-torn countries who are in their second, maybe third, year of learning English. On top of that they are taking math, science, social studies, etc. They have to learn that the mitochondria are organelles in all eukaryotic cells, and that the mitochondria produce adenosine triphosphate, which gets broken down into adenosine diphosphate to release stored energy. Oh, and that they might have once been prokaryotic, and got absorbed by other prokaryotic cells to produce the first eukaryote.

These kids amaze me with their effort, their heart, their graciousness when they get help. They are so grateful to be here, safe, fed, not being threatened by what is going on in the countries they escaped from. They are not here with any parents - either orphaned or sent away as the one who might get a chance to live. (This is a generalization - not info from any particular student, per FERPA)

I wouldn't demand every other student be held up.

 

[pat fan]

Government giving money to a religious school is tacitly endorsing the religion.

As long as it doesn't say "This one is ok, this one is not" it's not endorsing a specific religion. BUT, here's why some (like you) could raise objections, whether right or wrong, so it gets sticky. Just one of the many things to take into consideration and have a plan for prior to implementation.

And I'm glad someone pointed out the actual reasoning of church and state. So many people get it wrong, makes me a tad nutty but I don't want to be the corrections police, lol!

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

Government giving money to a religious school is tacitly endorsing the religion.

I disagree.

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

But then what if I want a voucher for the portion of my taxes that go to the defense budget and the ability to direct those funds to agencies that promote national defense through the teaching of tolerance and economic investment to foster stronger global partnerships. The nation is still safe and we're all still paying taxes, so what changed? And what about if somebody else wants their contributions to the highway funds invested in city streets, instead, because they don't drive on the highways? Taxes just cannot work that way, in my opinion, without either cherrypicking our personal causes or having total chaos.

I think some aspects/parts of govt will always have to be handled differently than others.