Blue Sky Rumor: Ride coming to UK Pavilion?

[lockedoutlogic]

Not completely. Bob Chapek has said there will be changes coming to Epcot.

But as of press time, those changes are as defined as an amoeba...

My rank in the international brotherhood of Epcot defenders is well documented...so no one wants investment more...but it has to be the right type of investment.

It can't be bad ip overlays and "exclusive events" or a 4th take on the same festivals.

What if "changes" means they come out with some "after hours magic" type scenario...which when you take the lipstick off is just selling a portion of the day in an overcrowded park that should be part of the normal operation. Pay no attention to that cliff up ahead...

I try to stick to the sure bets as of now...luckily there are things happening. Right now that is:
1. Will AK get a bump?
2. What the heck is going on at the moderates?
3. Can they build a legit Star Wars land?

 

[Liljo22]

Indeed...that is a big investment...but I got a couple of questions:

1. How much money was spent In the 10 years BEFORE that investment?
2. Did anything different happen in their market?
3. What's happening after Star Wars land rolls out? (More to follow)


That is all...with all due respect to my friend and the network of "outside insiders" that propogate the hypothetical...100% speculation.

I got a saying for that...

I haven't painted myself into any corner. Their overall investment in park additions went down significantly since AK opened (fact)...and their pricing policies have been "more for same/less" and are unbalanced (my take)

Might I remind you that the current WDW parks are net zero or even less In terms of actual attractions in the ticket price today as compared to 1999?...only animal kingdom will be above in may...that's not good for theme parks in close to 20 years...not at all.

IF...and that's a big one...they announce more significant investments to follow mgm I will soften my stance...just like I'll soften my wdi criticism if what they are building now is good.

So far...new fantasyland, springs, and the Epcot stuff have been "minor" improvements. You can't look at these things in a vacuum. All factors have to be considered and should be by the consumer.

Your right. They didn't spend on the parks after AK which was a major problem but all you keep posting is the they are not willing to spend money currently and just want free money. That is an outright falsehood. If you throw MDE into the mix, you are talking about over $3 billion spent. They have proven that they are willing to spend the money.

Are they also trying to get incremental dollars by increasing prices and adding extra events? Of course they are. They still have stockholders to answer to and if you are not increasing profit year over year you have failed. Attendance has dropped so that is the way they can hold the bottom line.

You are like the Iraqi Information Minister during the war. Claiming there is nothing to see here. Disney is not spending money while contruction crane are going in the background.

 

[Liljo22]

3. Can they build a legit Star Wars land?

I brought up on the board the Magic Leap partnership in regards to Star Wars Land and Iger recently confirmed the use of Augmented Reality in Star Wars. If they use Magic Leap technology in one of the rides, it will be the most technological advanced ride out there. Their technology is so far more advanced than anything AR related out there.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I guess the point I was trying to make was not quite so clear. They need more "stuff" in Epcot. Each pavilion will get some sort of ride, movie, or audio-animatronic show, that not only fits in with the particular pavilion, it will enhance the entertainment value of it. Something to make people want to spend more time in each country. Spend more time = spend more money for the company (good business) and more enjoyment for the guest (good business). Kids are a BIG factor here. What can we do to make kids want to see each country...RIDES! Probably based on iconic characters! Throw a Ratatouille ride in France and it suddenly is a MUST DO for everyone! Do that for every country and crowds come to Epcot! Disney is about to drop a ton of money in Epcot and it won't just be to bring "GOTG" to Future World. Ellen will go, Wonders of Life space will finally be used, and same for innoventions! Much is coming!

I agree with this overall - but think they need to find the balance because there are a lot of people (admittedly more adults) that enjoy World Showcase as it is and strolling through the pavilions, etc. - so I don't think you want to make it Magic Kingdom 2.0 at the expense of those people ... but adding some more things (a couple more rides, updating the 360 movies (maybe add 3D), stuff like that so that there is more of a draw to those that currently find it boring would be good

 

[George4]

Indeed...that is a big investment...but I got a couple of questions:

1. How much money was spent In the 10 years BEFORE that investment?
2. Did anything different happen in their market?
3. What's happening after Star Wars land rolls out? (More to follow)


That is all...with all due respect to my friend and the network of "outside insiders" that propogate the hypothetical...100% speculation.

I got a saying for that...

I haven't painted myself into any corner. Their overall investment in park additions went down significantly since AK opened (fact)...and their pricing policies have been "more for same/less" and are unbalanced (my take)

Might I remind you that the current WDW parks are net zero or even less In terms of actual attractions in the ticket price today as compared to 1999?...only animal kingdom will be above in may...that's not good for theme parks in close to 20 years...not at all.

IF...and that's a big one...they announce more significant investments to follow mgm I will soften my stance...just like I'll soften my wdi criticism if what they are building now is good.

So far...new fantasyland, springs, and the Epcot stuff have been "minor" improvements. You can't look at these things in a vacuum. All factors have to be considered and should be by the consumer.

Okay, this is twice in the last two weeks that I have agreed with lockedoutlogic. The comparison gets even more staggering if you go back to around even further and eliminate the new park construction. Has there been any significant addition to any of the parks since 1990 other than their initial construction? EPCOT has added one country and stripped out Imagination, Wonders of Life and traded Horizons for Mission space and traded World of MOtion for Test Track. MK has added new Fantasyland and a slew or attractions back in the 90's (yeah for that), but not much since then. DHS has added Midway Mania since 2000 and that's it. While a lot of it has been removed for new rides, it is likely to be a net loss of attractions when they are finished. Ak had four new ones added up through about 2007 and then nothing sense (until Pandora this year). LOL isn't only correct, but you can actually go further back than 10 years and it gets worse.

Inflation since 2000 would say that the $46 ticket price from 2000 would now cost $65.07, but instead it runs us almost twice inflation at $119 on a peak day. That is a complete failure to keep parks updated. That's before we talk about additional guests in the these parks. approximately 35 million in 2000, to over 46 million in 2015. The capacity of these parks to keep people reasonably entertained (not just standing in line) during all but the quietest times of the year just isn't there.

 

[George4]

Indeed...that is a big investment...but I got a couple of questions:

1. How much money was spent In the 10 years BEFORE that investment?
2. Did anything different happen in their market?
3. What's happening after Star Wars land rolls out? (More to follow)


That is all...with all due respect to my friend and the network of "outside insiders" that propogate the hypothetical...100% speculation.

I got a saying for that...

I haven't painted myself into any corner. Their overall investment in park additions went down significantly since AK opened (fact)...and their pricing policies have been "more for same/less" and are unbalanced (my take)

Might I remind you that the current WDW parks are net zero or even less In terms of actual attractions in the ticket price today as compared to 1999?...only animal kingdom will be above in may...that's not good for theme parks in close to 20 years...not at all.

IF...and that's a big one...they announce more significant investments to follow mgm I will soften my stance...just like I'll soften my wdi criticism if what they are building now is good.

So far...new fantasyland, springs, and the Epcot stuff have been "minor" improvements. You can't look at these things in a vacuum. All factors have to be considered and should be by the consumer.

Okay, this is twice in the last two weeks that I have agreed with lockedoutlogic. The comparison gets even more staggering if you go back to around even further and eliminate the new park construction. Has there been any significant addition to any of the parks since 1990 other than their initial construction? EPCOT has added one country and stripped out Imagination, Wonders of Life and traded Horizons for Mission space and traded World of MOtion for Test Track. MK has added new Fantasyland and a slew or attractions back in the 90's (yeah for that), but not much since then. DHS has added Midway Mania since 2000 and that's it. While a lot of it has been removed for new rides, it is likely to be a net loss of attractions when they are finished. Ak had four new ones added up through about 2007 and then nothing sense (until Pandora this year). LOL isn't only correct, but you can actually go further back than 10 years and it gets worse.

Inflation since 2000 would say that the $46 ticket price from 2000 would now cost $65.07, but instead it runs us almost twice inflation at $119 on a peak day. That is a complete failure to keep parks updated. That's before we talk about additional guests in the these parks. approximately 35 million in 2000, to over 46 million in 2015. The capacity of these parks to keep people reasonably entertained (not just standing in line) during all but the quietest times of the year just isn't there.

 

[George4]

Your right. They didn't spend on the parks after AK which was a major problem but all you keep posting is the they are not willing to spend money currently and just want free money. That is an outright falsehood. If you throw MDE into the mix, you are talking about over $3 billion spent. They have proven that they are willing to spend the money.

Are they also trying to get incremental dollars by increasing prices and adding extra events? Of course they are. They still have stockholders to answer to and if you are not increasing profit year over year you have failed. Attendance has dropped so that is the way they can hold the bottom line.

You are like the Iraqi Information Minister during the war. Claiming there is nothing to see here. Disney is not spending money while contruction crane are going in the background.

MDE was an effort to extract more money out of existing customers, and any different belief is simply naive. Oh, and it worked, as spending per guest has taken sizable jumps each of the past few years.

 

[George4]

If you really want to improve the experience at the parks, the ride capacity (not shops, restaurants or character meet and greets) would need to be increased by at least 10,000 people per hour (perhaps even more in Magic Kingdom) to try to get lines down to 30-ish minutes per ride/attraction. The ride capacity should expand every year by the number of new people in the parks.

Going back to the original thread, the need for rides/attractions in the EPCOT countries comes back the the fact that the front of the park is slammed with visitors and lines (90+ minute waits for attractions is fairly common for Test Track and Maelstrom/Frozen, and 60+ for Mission:Space on quiet days), and the other countries have slammed restaurants, but no other real visitors. There is nothing that people currently want to see, they only are interested in eating right now. If you got people to stay in the country area longer with a ride/attraction, they may end up spending more money anyway. Disney still wins.

 

[MissGina5]

Yeah but characters are used in fables to sell merchandise...how are we using that to "educate"?

That's a bridge too far...

I am not saying Disney is doing it well quite yet but that doesn't mean it can't and won't be done.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Your right. They didn't spend on the parks after AK which was a major problem but all you keep posting is the they are not willing to spend money currently and just want free money. That is an outright falsehood. If you throw MDE into the mix, you are talking about over $3 billion spent. They have proven that they are willing to spend the money.

Are they also trying to get incremental dollars by increasing prices and adding extra events? Of course they are. They still have stockholders to answer to and if you are not increasing profit year over year you have failed. Attendance has dropped so that is the way they can hold the bottom line.

You are like the Iraqi Information Minister during the war. Claiming there is nothing to see here. Disney is not spending money while contruction crane are going in the background.

For the first point...their willingness can be summed up in one word: Comcast. A company with as much money...and at times more...with a 10 year massive addition program to rescue a fading competitor and positioned to vastly increase its share with capital reinvestment. Loss in any market share is a huge hole in Disneys portfolio when looking at it with espn problems in mind.

I am not claiming that they aren't spending money...I'm saying it's being done by force due to market factors (above) and it's antithetical to the iger operation.
Fact: they allowed park stagnation to set in and did so by choice for nearness a decade.
Fact: they have taken things off line...notably in Epcot and studios...so they have created their own hole to dig out of.
Fact: they have ceased expanding the resort footprint - in fact retracting the potential customer market by converting rooms to DVC - which may not be wise. And secondary to that: pricing is driving the outside property market away...they do that to make more money off each visitor lb for lb to throw it at the stockholders...while permenantly pricing other parts of their traditional markets out. "Less is more" for now...lest the curves cross on the Econ 101 chart and then less is less with potential customers gone forever.

I've thought about this...just a touch...since spending a "bit" of time in Orlando going on 20 years ago.
The "you just don't Like Disney" barbs cannot score a hit here.
Not with work experience...research (hobby...both theme park and amusement history and financials)...certainly not my wallet (constantly sore from Disney damage)...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I am not saying Disney is doing it well quite yet but that doesn't mean it can't and won't be done.

How do you tell an educational lesson about France with aurora or belle?

Of better yet - Mulan in china...where the narrative of the character fits neither the past nor the present of the culture?

To be clear...I want Epcot to get drastically needed attention. I'm afraid that The current Disney management doesn't have a clue how to do that and maintain the dignity of the park...the frozen ride didn't reverse that course...

 

[MissGina5]

How do you tell an educational lesson about France with aurora or belle?

Of better yet - Mulan in china...where the narrative of the character fits neither the past nor the present of the culture?

To be clear...I want Epcot to get drastically needed attention. I'm afraid that The current Disney management doesn't have a clue how to do that and maintain the dignity of the park...the frozen ride didn't reverse that course...

well the rumor right now is Rat is most likely getting France, they could talk about the food culture in France specifically. It would be a smart move because it would make guests even more excited for the food!

Mulan is based on a real legend. Maybe a comparison or she tells us about other legends in China.

and Belle could technically be reading to us about France that would be easy.

I could do this for fun with each country honestly, the important part is trying to avoid using literal fairy tales that are better suited to MK. Like I was thinking if we get Spain, which is the rumor right now, a Gigantic attraction where you go into the Giant's realm? but that has nothing to do with Spain so that goes to MK. But learning about the Spanish Age of Exploration the movie is set during? Perfect for Epcot!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

well the rumor right now is Rat is most likely getting France, they could talk about the food culture in France specifically. It would be a smart move because it would make guests even more excited for the food!

Mulan is based on a real legend. Maybe a comparison or she tells us about other legends in China.

and Belle could technically be reading to us about France that would be easy.

I could do this for fun with each country honestly

It's really all in the execution...and by that - I mean the priorities of the management.

I don't think the management likes the theme of Epcot much at all...they see it as overhead heavy with poor tie in to their ip...it's a shame.

 

[MissGina5]

It's really all in the execution...and by that - I mean the priorities of the management.

I don't think the management likes the theme of Epcot much at all...they see it as overhead heavy with poor tie in to their ip...it's a shame.

That I can undersand. It does appear they don't understand the full value of Epcot or Walt's vision for it.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

MDE was an effort to extract more money out of existing customers, and any different belief is simply naive. Oh, and it worked, as spending per guest has taken sizable jumps each of the past few years.

Mde was actually - and those that ever signed into a Disney computer system know this well - was the financial cover for an it upgrade portrayed as a longterm profit generator. I think it's fairly apparent that the ruse has been seen through now.
But - I give iger credit for allowing it. He knew the cranky money mongers determining his retirement package would never stand for a pure infrastructure project...but also knew the property's jury rigged computers where going to be a huge problem moving forward.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

That I can undersand. It does appear they don't understand the full value of Epcot or Walt's vision for it.

That isn't "Walt's vision" at all...as had been well documented.

I'm fine for don Tatum, card walker, and ray watson's vision...because what was built was the most unique theme park ever conceived.

 

[MissGina5]

That isn't "Walt's vision" at all...as had been well documented.

I'm fine for don Tatum, card walker, and ray watson's vision...because what was built was the most unique theme park ever conceived.

ok splitting hairs but ok

 

[amcc]

Are they also trying to get incremental dollars by increasing prices and adding extra events? Of course they are. They still have stockholders to answer to and if you are not increasing profit year over year you have failed. Attendance has dropped so that is the way they can hold the bottom line.

I agree with LOL on Epcot and this part of your argument supports him as well. This blinding need to hold the bottom line in an "attendance is dropping therefore let us event plus while cutting" is inevitably hurtling Disney towards a cliff. There is no clear indication that this strategy is being corrected before it implodes (although Pandora may help and Star Wars will).

That isn't "Walt's vision" at all...as had been well documented.

I'm fine for don Tatum, card walker, and ray watson's vision...because what was built was the most unique theme park ever conceived.

I don't think an Epcot park idea would be greenlighted today. I always saw it as an enhanced, reimagined, super plussed worlds fair, a concept that today, barely exists in popular culture. In 1984, my parents took us to a worlds fair in New Orleans and it was an amazing experience. Now, my kids have no concept, have never even heard of such a thing. I feel that the base, the foundation, the original storyboard of Epcot may not resonate with those making the decisions on its future.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I agree with LOL on Epcot and this part of your argument supports him as well. This blinding need to hold the bottom line in an "attendance is dropping therefore let us event plus while cutting" is inevitably hurtling Disney towards a cliff. There is no clear indication that this strategy is being corrected before it implodes (although Pandora may help and Star Wars will).



I don't think an Epcot park idea would be greenlighted today. I always saw it as an enhanced, reimagined, super plussed worlds fair, a concept that today, barely exists in popular culture. In 1984, my parents took us to a worlds fair in New Orleans and it was an amazing experience. Now, my kids have no concept, have never even heard of such a thing. I feel that the base, the foundation, the original storyboard of Epcot may not resonate with those making the decisions on its future.

Agree on both accounts:

When attendance falters, it's the job of the entertainment company to reinvest to draw more gate.

Disney's price increases and special upsells does nothing to address the decay to the foundation business...just rub dirt over it.

The "after hours magic" is my favorite examples...as it seems most DISers don't see what it actually is: taking the one overattended park, dividing the normal day into two, and double charging for it. Fools will fall for it this time.

And I agree with your Epcot stance...it would never happen again. Why? Because it was exotic then...and due to mass media, digital on demand, and the internet...it's mundane now. When I was a kid...I had to go to the LIBRARY to see the Eiffel Tower and read about it? Now it's downright boring and my kids can virtually climb it on PlayStation VR.

But that doesn't take away from the achievement of Epcot...it is one of a kind. There an excellent book (project future if I recall)...that tells the best account of the construction of Epcot. It's great.

 

[jpeden]

MDE was an effort to extract more money out of existing customers, and any different belief is simply naive. Oh, and it worked, as spending per guest has taken sizable jumps each of the past few years.

When you aren't pulling that wallet out for every transaction, it's a lot easier to lose track of how much you spend.