new DVC rules Riviera

[GrumpyInPhilly]

The sale and resale issues are developer issues. DVCMC then has to manage the resorts based on that information. The perks are developer issues. I don't believe the reallocation is to drive purchases in anyway. When it comes to sales and resales you can't take the developer out of the equation when they're still actively selling.


100% no, I don't work that way. In reality this likely hurts me and it certainly doesn't help me. But it doesn't matter, I look at thing from a legal and contractual standpoint as well as my principles, not how they affect me personally, at least in terms of my opinion on what should be done. How it affects me is a separate issue. That's one of the problems here and certainly one of the problems we saw with the valet parking discussions a few years ago, some simply can't separate them, I can and routinely do. I don't care if members are paying more and getting less, I care that they know that and can make the best decisions possible, that they have the information because I care about people.

Thank you for looking out for others in this me-first world.

 

[Madame]

The sale and resale issues are developer issues. DVCMC then has to manage the resorts based on that information. The perks are developer issues. I don't believe the reallocation is to drive purchases in anyway. When it comes to sales and resales you can't take the developer out of the equation when they're still actively selling.


100% no, I don't work that way. In reality this likely hurts me and it certainly doesn't help me. But it doesn't matter, I look at thing from a legal and contractual standpoint as well as my principles, not how they affect me personally, at least in terms of my opinion on what should be done. How it affects me is a separate issue. That's one of the problems here and certainly one of the problems we saw with the valet parking discussions a few years ago, some simply can't separate them, I can and routinely do. I don't care if members are paying more and getting less, I care that they know that and can make the best decisions possible, that they have the information because I care about people.

I did not imply that you didn’t care about people, simply that your interests colour your viewpoint like every other human on the planet.

My role as an educator colours my view. However, I can no longer be bothered to try and fight for/defend those who continually take positions against their own best interest. Carry on. I’ll just ignore what amounts to manipulation of the POS and theft of inventory & all the rest.

 

[Dean]

Thank you for looking out for others in this me-first world.

We have to look out for each other, it's one of the things I enjoy about timesharing and participating in timeshare related sites, the willingness to help others. You don't know what you don't know and it seems that many check their thought processes and usual due diligence at the door with timeshares (esp DVC).

I did not imply that you didn’t care about people, simply that your interests colour your viewpoint like every other human on the planet.

Sure, but you implied that my usage factored into my acceptance of the reallocation and I'm stating that is 100% not accurate. To be honest, I still haven't put any real serious thought into how this will affect me personally. Initial impressions are it'll be negative as the majority of our stays the last few years have been 1 BR and we prefer not to have a studio. There may be less exchange opportunities even still going forward and like everyone else, 1 BR stays will be more expensive. I think one of the differences in how I look at things in general compared to some is I really have no problem separating out the reasonableness of a given change separately from how it affects me, I know many can't to that. And to be honest, there are some in this thread who feel differently on the reallocation that I now do that as well and that has not gone unnoticed by me. And I don't subscribe to situational ethics, many things really are black and white in such matters.

 

[drusba]

We are coming a little close to what could be perceived as personal attacks on a poster that should be avoided. Dean has been a valuable contributor on this site for many years, and though I may not always agree with his views, I always respect and consider them, and at times he brings me back to earth from my often overly-optimistic views of the Disney timeshare system. So let us keep it civil.

 

[Madame]

We are coming a little close to what could be perceived as personal attacks on a poster that should be avoided. Dean has been a valuable contributor on this site for many years, and though I may not always agree with his views, I always respect and consider them, and at times he brings me back to earth from my often overly-optimistic views of the Disney timeshare system. So let us keep it civil.

In no way did I attack Dean. I questioned his hard line stance on acceptance of the recent changes and advice to others over and over again to walk away if unhappy, given that he rarely uses his points and trades in.

I did not find it insulting when it was implied more than once that I was illogical, as I realize that my thinking could be perceived as such by some. I am finished with the reallocation issue and will refrain from posting further.

 

[Dean]

We are coming a little close to what could be perceived as personal attacks on a poster that should be avoided. Dean has been a valuable contributor on this site for many years, and though I may not always agree with his views, I always respect and consider them, and at times he brings me back to earth from my often overly-optimistic views of the Disney timeshare system. So let us keep it civil.

Thanks drusba, if this is the worst I get on DIS I'll be thankful, LOL. I really haven't taken any of this personally and to be honest, I've had several times in the past few days that I actively thought how well this had gone and how above board the discussions have been dealing with the subject rather than attacking individuals, esp when emotions are clearly running so high for some.

 

[Ben E N]

This change, the surprise nature of it, and the relative lack of information supporting it are all going to cause people alarm. I appreciate those who are putting in the time to discuss all sides of the issue, as it helps me see it from the various viewpoints and allows me to shape my own opinion.
The recent changes are big moves that affect thousands of dollars of people's money, not to mention their vacation habits, so of course emotions are going to be involved in the discussions. I have to say I have been pretty pleased with how civil things have remained in these discussions, especially when opposing viewpoints have sounded off.

 

[Disney mac]

IMO it's factual that SSR is in lower demand than some other resorts and that the % of points there that are looking to reserve at other resorts is higher than any other on property resort. Whether his will change with the reallocation is unknown

This has to be tough and inaccurate to keep track of in a way. This past year I used my AKL and Poly to stay at AKL, then used my Poly and AKl to book at BW and now just used my VGF to book at Poly. So it’s all over the place on who uses where and desirable. I didn’t use my Poly points to stay there, but I will be staying there. But I get your point about SSR.

 

[Bing Showei]

In no way did I attack Dean. I questioned his hard line stance on acceptance of the recent changes and advice to others over and over again to walk away if unhappy, given that he rarely uses his points and trades in.

I did not find it insulting when it was implied more than once that I was illogical, as I realize that my thinking could be perceived as such by some. I am finished with the reallocation issue and will refrain from posting further.

I agree with Dean that while the discourse has been at times emotional, it has always been civil. I hope you don’t refrain from posting on the reallocation/Riviera or any of this further, as I think Dean would agree that all sensible voices on the matter should be welcomed.

I can say pretty confidently that if ever there were a Vulcan on these boards, he would likely choose a Martian as an avatar. I don't share Dean's views on the matters of the reallocation, but I've had enough informative and thoughtful exchanges with him on these boards to know that he is not only a level-headed realist/pragmatist, but generous and above all, thoughtful; not in the warm and sensitive-to-your-feelings variety, but that when he decides stake a position on something, a significant amount of thought, devoid of emotions or personal interest, was put into it.

 

[ziravan]

I think this was my fatal flaw in buying in. I read the posts that people like Dean would repeatedly throw up about luxury purchases, I parroted the lines about how this shouldn’t be financed because it’s a risk, I intellectualized that a timeshare should be considered a sunk cost, etc., but if I were being honest with myself? Yeah, I had a resale exit strategy in the back of my mind.

I think those who truly understood the product they bought into and all the rights you sign away in so doing (no, those weren’t hypotheticals you were agreeing to - Mumof4mice has a great post spelling some of this out), those owners are much more at peace with a lot of the restrictions.

For me, this is a bit of a growing period... growing pains and all. I’ll say this though, as an owner who continues to own after these latest restrictions, re-allocations, and discussions around corporate greed; for the first time, I’m going to own all of it.

So when Disney comes out with the exchange charts that show our grandfathered exchange into the new DVCs have essentially become the new DCL exchange where the value just isn’t there, I will not be among those who lament how DVC has changed and have devalued our timeshare ownership. Or that they “don’t care about the membership.” I know they don’t, and I’m starting to come to terms with that.

It’s exhausting feeling like you’re in an abusive relationship with your timeshare. So if I decide to stay, I’m owning that decision.

We have what we feel is a perfect balance of points:

250 BCV points we bought in resale in 2014
168 Poly direct fixed week in 2015
100 AKV resale in 2017

Our average price per point over all three contracts: $116, ironically, because the BCV contract at $84/point drives our average price over all three contracts down.

We aren’t selling or buying.

BECAUSE I’m invested in the product, it bothers me that they’re making these changes and making it more difficult for future owners to buy in. It bothers me a whole lot.

But, as they say, we’re grandfathered from the main changes being made.

And we ride the heck out of our contracts.

The Chinese proverb is the best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago. The second best time is today.

I didn’t plant twenty years ago; don’t know if I could or would plant today. I’m glad that I planted enough trees starting five years ago to bear the fruit I wanted.

And that $84 BCV contract allows for quite a bit of tolerance. And wow, as I pointed out to my wife the other day, we’ve been members making multiple trips to WDW per year for five years now.

 

[Bing Showei]

And wow, as I pointed out to my wife the other day, we’ve been members making multiple trips to WDW per year for five years now.

As long as we’re still having fun, right? I’ll keep my membership as long as that’s still true.

A MK home-resort, an Epcot home-resort, and an AK option. That is a great balance. Sadly Riviera was going to potentially be my Epcot option. Still may be, but it will have to be a great resort, Skyliner will have to be a great mode of transport, and it will have to be by way of resale, buying “where you want to stay.” Except now without the quotations.

 

[ziravan]

We just put together a two night stay for next month, on the fly.

Found one night at Poly for Moonlight Magic, which is now booked.

Used OTU points and 3 leftover points to book a second night at BCV, where we’ll check out Toy Story Land,

And found round trip plane tickets from Austin to Orlando for $67 each way, or $540 for 4 round trip, total.

MDE bus so no taxi.

Gonna be a really nice mini-break put together.

~~~~

When Pandora opened I was able to put together a 3 night trip that included 1. Last Wishes, 2. First HEA, 3. Pandora DVC preview. Amazing.

~~~~

I can be upset about the changes being made — really upset — and still believe that there’s great value in the product.

In fact, that’s why I’m upset. I mean, if DVC was just a 70’s lime green suit hanging in my closet next to the bell bottom jeans, I wouldn’t be on a forum spending so much time discussing it. Probably.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

We are coming a little close to what could be perceived as personal attacks on a poster that should be avoided. Dean has been a valuable contributor on this site for many years, and though I may not always agree with his views, I always respect and consider them, and at times he brings me back to earth from my often overly-optimistic views of the Disney timeshare system. So let us keep it civil.

Dean has been a valuable resource to posters and the DIS. Like his comments or not, he has nothing but the utmost respect from me. Thank you Dean!!

 

[vacationer1954]

Sure, but you implied that my usage factored into my acceptance of the reallocation and I'm stating that is 100% not accurate.

Despite that our "usage" is completely different (I have three separate trips to WDW using points between December 2018 and December 2019) and with the kids all grown now all our upcoming trips will be in studios. I've clicked "Like" for a couple of your posts because what you wrote made sense despite the change being to my own personal disadvantage.

I think one of the differences in how I look at things in general compared to some is I really have no problem separating out the reasonableness of a given change separately from how it affects me, I know many can't to that.

I think the ability to separate the impact of something on us personally from our determination of whether it is legitimate is a critical skill in all aspects of life. When I'm going off on a tirade about something driven by the visceral reaction to how that something adversely affects me and I see someone post something that illuminates the bigger picture, I hope that that calls me back to my better self and helps me see the legitimacy even in those things that I don't like.

Beyond that, I think we can take this situation as a lesson - we should allow ourselves to get attached only to guarantees, and we should not become attached to those things that can change.

 

[Dean]

Despite that our "usage" is completely different (I have three separate trips to WDW using points between December 2018 and December 2019) and with the kids all grown now all our upcoming trips will be in studios. I've clicked "Like" for a couple of your posts because what you wrote made sense despite the change being to my own personal disadvantage.

I think the ability to separate the impact of something on us personally from our determination of whether it is legitimate is a critical skill in all aspects of life. When I'm going off on a tirade about something driven by the visceral reaction to how that something adversely affects me and I see someone post something that illuminates the bigger picture, I hope that that calls me back to my better self and helps me see the legitimacy even in those things that I don't like.

Beyond that, I think we can take this situation as a lesson - we should allow ourselves to get attached only to guarantees, and we should not become attached to those things that can change.

Thanks. Personally I think those educated here should already be past the emotional component and down to the contractual issues, we've discussed such things enough over the years. I think the problem with the current reallocation is it's not an issue any of us would have anticipated as a likely change even though contractually it's c/w the contract. And it's compounded by the fact that DVCMC hasn't given a good explanation of the specifics which they could do without giving out actual occupancy and specifics. I doubt everyone would be satisfied but I think most that are otherwise reasonable would be.

 

[Airb330]

Thanks. Personally I think those educated here should already be past the emotional component and down to the contractual issues, we've discussed such things enough over the years. I think the problem with the current reallocation is it's not an issue any of us would have anticipated as a likely change even though contractually it's c/w the contract. And it's compounded by the fact that DVCMC hasn't given a good explanation of the specifics which they could do without giving out actual occupancy and specifics. I doubt everyone would be satisfied but I think most that are otherwise reasonable would be.

Agreed. I think if we saw 1 bedrooms decrease, even slightly, there would be less issue with the reallocation. I did the math on my 140 point VGF contract, and we are essentially losing 30 (studio) nights from now until 2064 based on our typical usage pattern. So, while not exactly a night a year, that's still a significant loss of value to us. Of course, this could change in a future reallocation. However, my fear is, this is the first step and the points situation could be more dire 10 years from now. We simply don't know. This reallocation was done so opaquely to most of us and that's part of the issue. Do we still see value at VGF? Absolutely, but it doesn't mean that we're thrilled with these changes for our usage.

AKL I didn't bother because the points were already relatively low there IMO. I don't think we win there either though. Aulani luckily, didn't change in 2020.

I think the reallocation would have been less controversial if a few things were done:

1) Even out the seasons to 'the new normal' of visitation patterns. Perhaps October-December aren't less busy anymore. I know VGF is very difficult to get into in the fall. This likely would have been an outrage too though, however, most DVC members could justify that change based on data we all see.
2) Raise studios, lower some 1 bedrooms, lower some 2 bedrooms based on demand. While I'm 99% a studio person, at least I could see others benefiting from the change. Perhaps future usage will be more 1-2 bedroom heavy and I could foresee some savings too. The current 2020 reallocation is just pain almost all around except for some 2 bedrooms-- I don't think it helps me at any point.
3) Better communication from DVC. They knew this was coming and hid it from the member's meeting. Some pain is in these 2020 charts and a real conversation would have been better than dropping a PDF for all of us to see and react to it. None of us were anticipating this much change.

 

[Dean]

Agreed. I think if we saw 1 bedrooms decrease, even slightly, there would be less issue with the reallocation. I did the math on my 140 point VGF contract, and we are essentially losing 30 (studio) nights from now until 2064 based on our typical usage pattern. So, while not exactly a night a year, that's still a significant loss of value to us. Of course, this could change in a future reallocation. However, my fear is, this is the first step and the points situation could be more dire 10 years from now. We simply don't know. This reallocation was done so opaquely to most of us and that's part of the issue. Do we still see value at VGF? Absolutely, but it doesn't mean that we're thrilled with these changes for our usage.

AKL I didn't bother because the points were already relatively low there IMO. I don't think we win there either though. Aulani luckily, didn't change in 2020.

I think the reallocation would have been less controversial if a few things were done:

1) Even out the seasons to 'the new normal' of visitation patterns. Perhaps October-December aren't less busy anymore. I know VGF is very difficult to get into in the fall. This likely would have been an outrage too though, however, most DVC members could justify that change based on data we all see.
2) Raise studios, lower some 1 bedrooms, lower some 2 bedrooms based on demand. While I'm 99% a studio person, at least I could see others benefiting from the change. Perhaps future usage will be more 1-2 bedroom heavy and I could foresee some savings too. The current 2020 reallocation is just pain almost all around except for some 2 bedrooms-- I don't think it helps me at any point.
3) Better communication from DVC. They knew this was coming and hid it from the member's meeting. Some pain is in these 2020 charts and a real conversation would have been better than dropping a PDF for all of us to see and react to it. None of us were anticipating this much change.

We already have reported confirmation from DVC that they feel 2 BR are in higher demand and that suggests they feel the need to adjust that demand. Raising studios and lowering 1 BR (even relatively speaking by just raising studios and keeping 1 BR the same) doesn't address that issue. It also doesn't change the principle that some are standing on. Saying keeping 1 BR and same and raising studios is not legally any different that the change that was done. There really are only 2 ways to affect 2 BR demand, reduce the demand for the smaller components or physically limit the numbers available. They could physically limit them by just choosing the number that are available or by being more strict on occupancy.

 

[Airb330]

We already have reported confirmation from DVC that they feel 2 BR are in higher demand and that suggests they feel the need to adjust that demand. Raising studios and lowering 1 BR (even relatively speaking by just raising studios and keeping 1 BR the same) doesn't address that issue. It also doesn't change the principle that some are standing on. Saying keeping 1 BR and same and raising studios is not legally any different that the change that was done. There really are only 2 ways to affect 2 BR demand, reduce the demand for the smaller components or physically limit the numbers available. They could physically limit them by just choosing the number that are available or by being more strict on occupancy.

You're right, raising studios and lowering 1 bedrooms wouldn't help address 2 bedroom lockoff availability issues (looking at VGF in particular). Not disagreeing with what you're saying at all; I just doubt this reallocation is really to the benefit of most DVC members. Whether it's a benefit to DVCMC as a whole remains to be seen, they could be correct for all we know. And I know, 'most DVC members' and 'DVCMC as a whole' aren't particularly the same thing especially in this case. Holding a few 2 bedrooms as "virtual dedicated 2 bedrooms" would be an easier fix IMO; whether that's an option I have no idea. I guess I just don't buy the premise that people were having such issues getting 2 bedrooms that it warrants this 2020 reallocation, but appreciate the extra information.

"VCMC hasn't given a good explanation of the specifics which they could do without giving out actual occupancy and specifics."

Yep, that works for me. This reallocation isn't permanent; we still see significant value in our contracts and perhaps things will swing the other way in 5-10-15 years.

 

[Dean]

You're right, raising studios and lowering 1 bedrooms wouldn't help address 2 bedroom lockoff availability issues (looking at VGF in particular). Not disagreeing with what you're saying at all; I just doubt this reallocation is really to the benefit of most DVC members. Whether it's a benefit to DVCMC as a whole remains to be seen, they could be correct for all we know. And I know, 'most DVC members' and 'DVCMC as a whole' aren't particularly the same thing especially in this case. Holding a few 2 bedrooms as "virtual dedicated 2 bedrooms" would be an easier fix IMO; whether that's an option I have no idea. I guess I just don't buy the premise that people were having such issues getting 2 bedrooms that it warrants this 2020 reallocation, but appreciate the extra information.



Yep, that works for me. This reallocation isn't permanent; we still see significant value in our contracts and perhaps things will swing the other way in 5-10-15 years.

It doesn't appear the current system is set up to allow holding the villas back as full villas, they did that at one point in the past before the current computer system. They have the data, we really have only a small fraction of what they have. Clearly 2 BR are more in demand than 1 BR but we don't know how much. It doesn't matter if the 2 BR alone justify a change, if they're making changes they want to make it as perfect as possible going forward so they don't have to do it very often. It's a lot of work and cost to do the reallocation.

 

[gwb]

the room plans are out today hate the plans. Rooms are definitely smaller and a very small 1 counter kitchen in 1 and 2 bedrooms villas. DVC cutting space again to get more villas in same space. Glad to have my home resort.