Coronavirus and DCL Megathread - Suspension of Departures for the fleet until early November. Booking only available from early December.

[JM23457]

After seeing this the other day I can't see how DCL will cruise any time soon. Look how this cruise line tested everyone before boarding and had people test before they left home and still someone turned up with Covid during the cruise. That cruise only had 63 people on it. Can't imagine with one of the large cruise ships.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/ne...enger-tests-positive-for-covid-19/ar-BB17GpHi

MJ

If a single case is enough to stop an entire cruise, then I agree that cruising can't resume. There are going to be cases. Viruses spread.

 

[Starwind]

MSC are starting sailing, 2 ships one to Italy and one to Greece. Only open to those from schengen countries.
They can get off in certain ports but only with approved tours, no getting off and wandering.

I don't know if theres more info out there, I just got this from an all crew FB page

There are various articles about it out there. This is one which also speaks to the broader return of limited cruising to Italy: https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/italy-approves-the-restart-of-cruises-as-of-august-15

 

[_auroraborealis_]

If a single case is enough to stop an entire cruise, then I agree that cruising can't resume. There are going to be cases. Viruses spread.

A couple of the challenges on that one in Juneau is the need to quarantine passengers (easier with under 40 than with 1000+) and then getting them home. Scale is a big issue there when we compare a small line to DCL.

 

[T & R]

I do not understand why cruising is the only industry in the entire world that has the unreasonable and non-equal expectation put on it that in order to operate there cannot be a case of Covid. No other business has this unreasonable expectation put on it. If someone at a bar spread Covid, they do not close all the bars. Many more millions file through bars than cruises. Millions of people a day ride Uber and you have no idea whether the person who sat in the backseat before you had Covid. People argue that a cruise ship holds thousands of people and it's not essential. Many more people than a few thousand file through a pizza shop, so why is there no expectation that the pizza shop cannot have a Covid positive person who got in there and spread? (No, your pizza is not essential). We have states with up to 10K positive test results a day and prolly many more positive than that who just never got tested. So clearly it's not the cruise ships we need to be concerned about because cruise ships have been in time out since March. Just a thought but based on the number of positive tests cases, it may be a good idea for the CDC to start focusing on other types of businesses than only cruising. Clearly people are picking up the virus somewhere other than cruising. People also continue to argue the myth that a cruise ship will pull up in port with 3000 Covid positive people. This is simply a scare tactic and just not true. Even the Diamond Princess had less than 20% positive (hundreds positive not thousands) and that was 2 weeks at sea with symptomatic Covid positive passengers running around from day 1 and no pandemic plan initiated until 2 weeks into the cruise. I find it absurd that with all the Covid spread going on, to this day the CDC's only action against any industry in the entire world is the continual and unrelenting singling out of the cruise industry, an industry that has played an almost zero role in the spread of Covid. Here's a newsflash for the CDC in case they didn't know it, based on the current Covid spread rate, the cruise industry berating strategy is not working, move on to something that may actually work. Almost every U.S. business falls under interstate commerce, especially if they have a bank account, so the CDC has jurisdiction. Let's get to work and actually do something instead of the cruise ship showpiece regulating.

 

[FigmentSpark]

I do not understand why cruising is the only industry in the entire world that has the unreasonable and non-equal expectation put on it that in order to operate there cannot be a case of Covid. No other business has this unreasonable expectation put on it. If someone at a bar spread Covid, they do not close all the bars. Many more millions file through bars than cruises. Millions of people a day ride Uber and you have no idea whether the person who sat in the backseat before you had Covid. People argue that a cruise ship holds thousands of people and it's not essential. Many more people than a few thousand file through a pizza shop, so why is there no expectation that the pizza shop cannot have a Covid positive person who got in there and spread? (No, your pizza is not essential). We have states with up to 10K positive test results a day and prolly many more positive than that who just never got tested. So clearly it's not the cruise ships we need to be concerned about because cruise ships have been in time out since March. Just a thought but based on the number of positive tests cases, it may be a good idea for the CDC to start focusing on other types of businesses than only cruising. Clearly people are picking up the virus somewhere other than cruising. People also continue to argue the myth that a cruise ship will pull up in port with 3000 Covid positive people. This is simply a scare tactic and just not true. Even the Diamond Princess had less than 20% positive (hundreds positive not thousands) and that was 2 weeks at sea with symptomatic Covid positive passengers running around from day 1 and no pandemic plan initiated until 2 weeks into the cruise. I find it absurd that with all the Covid spread going on, to this day the CDC's only action against any industry in the entire world is the continual and unrelenting singling out of the cruise industry, an industry that has played an almost zero role in the spread of Covid. Here's a newsflash for the CDC in case they didn't know it, based on the current Covid spread rate, the cruise industry berating strategy is not working, move on to something that may actually work. Almost every U.S. business falls under interstate commerce, especially if they have a bank account, so the CDC has jurisdiction. Let's get to work and actually do something instead of the cruise ship showpiece regulating.

Are you sleeping in the pizza place or bar for 7 days?

If you'd compared it to a hotel or to WDW, I would agree, but there is a world of difference between a pizza place or a bar and a cruise.

 

[Chemist]

I do not understand why cruising is the only industry in the entire world that has the unreasonable and non-equal expectation put on it that in order to operate there cannot be a case of Covid. No other business has this unreasonable expectation put on it. If someone at a bar spread Covid, they do not close all the bars.

Well I live in a place where all the bars are closed too!

 

[DisneYE]

Are you sleeping in the pizza place or bar for 7 days?

If you'd compared it to a hotel or to WDW, I would agree, but there is a world of difference between a pizza place or a bar and a cruise.

This is true.
But also, WDW or hotels aren't entirely valid comparisons.
If you get sick in those places, you'll either go home or to a hospital.
Where do you go if someone gets the virus on a cruise? Get the the ship to alter course in the middle of the ocean so John and Karen can go to a hospital?
It happened on the last DCL cruise, the WBPC (yes THAT cruise - we were there), there was a medical emergency and the ship had to turn back to Grand Cayman.
Imagine 10 or more passengers showing symptoms onboard. It would disrupt the entire cruise.

Honestly I can't imagine how cruise lines are planning to deal with this.
This is why I don't see the cruise industry/CDC/other orgs letting ships sail normally for the next 6 months.
And this saddens me a lot.

 

[FigmentSpark]

This is true.
But also, WDW or hotels aren't entirely valid comparisons.
If you get sick in those places, you'll either go home or to a hospital.
Where do you go if someone gets the virus on a cruise? Get the the ship to alter course in the middle of the ocean so John and Karen can go to a hospital?
It happened on the last DCL cruise, the WBPC (yes THAT cruise - we were there), there was a medical emergency and the ship had to turn back to Grand Cayman.
Imagine 10 or more passengers showing symptoms onboard. It would disrupt the entire cruise.

Honestly I can't imagine how cruise lines are planning to deal with this.
This is why I don't see the cruise industry/CDC/other orgs letting ships sail normally for the next 6 months.
And this saddens me a lot.

Excellent points. I just thought it was a better comparison, but you're right, still not an equal comparison.

 

[Clojel]

This is true.
But also, WDW or hotels aren't entirely valid comparisons.
If you get sick in those places, you'll either go home or to a hospital.
Where do you go if someone gets the virus on a cruise? Get the the ship to alter course in the middle of the ocean so John and Karen can go to a hospital?
It happened on the last DCL cruise, the WBPC (yes THAT cruise - we were there), there was a medical emergency and the ship had to turn back to Grand Cayman.
Imagine 10 or more passengers showing symptoms onboard. It would disrupt the entire cruise.

Honestly I can't imagine how cruise lines are planning to deal with this.
This is why I don't see the cruise industry/CDC/other orgs letting ships sail normally for the next 6 months.
And this saddens me a lot.

yes, I’m inclined to agree about the 6 months. It’s all about transmissibility. Right now, if one person on the ship has covid, bc of the nature of a ship, 1 will quickly turn to 2, 2 to 4, 4 to 8, etc... and while certain preventive measures could be implemented to slow the spread - mask wearing, hand washing, extra sanitizing - when you’re talking about a ship with 3000+ people, you’re still going to quickly reach a number that’s concerning! I just can’t see how cruising resumes absent a vaccine. I’m not even saying everyone *has* to take the vaccine, just that *most* have. If most people on this ship are protected against contracting COVID, you won’t have an outbreak. People will still get covid, just like people still get the flu, noro virus, etc.... but it all comes down to a numbers game.

 

[JM23457]

But also, WDW or hotels aren't entirely valid comparisons.
If you get sick in those places, you'll either go home or to a hospital.
Where do you go if someone gets the virus on a cruise? Get the the ship to alter course in the middle of the ocean so John and Karen can go to a hospital?

Most people who get Covid have either minor symptoms or no symptoms, and do not require hospitalization or any special treatment.

In the Uncruise in which the cruise was cancelled due to a passenger testing positive during sailing, that passenger had (and as of current reporting, still has) no symptoms. So that was not about someone needing to be treated for anything.

The issue is that they are testing cruisers throughout the cruise, and any positive results end the cruise. Cruising is unsustainable under that standard, that there must be zero cases and zero spread. That just isn't going to happen.

People everywhere have mild & asymptomatic cases of Covid. But the world can't stop spinning.

 

[bbel]

I get the argument people put out there that cruising has been unfairly stopped. I want to go back to the job I love.

But for arguments sake (obviously this almost wouldn't happen, but it might make the argument for those who want to cruise immediately to stop and think a second) let's be a bit dramatic:

Right now worldometer has the US death rate from covid at 6% (5% for the world) say the Fantasy sails at full capacity, what's that, around 4000, not including crew?
Everyone onboard gets Covid, with those numbers, that's 240 that should die.
Even sailing at 50% capacity that's a lot for a weeks vacation.

Of course, it's very unlikely to happen, however, its things like this that the CDC and coastguard will throw at cruise lines to prove that it wont happen. Not everyone who dies has underlying health conditions or is old(er).
Can they do that? Can they promise that if they get stranded at sea the whole ship wont get infected? Can they promise that no one will die? Can they promise that the nearest hospital to the port won't suddenly get a hundred or so patients overnight?

You cant compare it to restaurants or shops or hotels, sure you could pass thousands of people in a week, but you're not likely to be in a confined space for an extra prolonged period. You can go away and isolate alone/with immediate family and not be reliant on others (crew) which would happen if you were isolated on a ship. On a ship you're still isolated with thousands of others, with more time to pass it on to each other.

Sure there's personal choices, but Covid isn't just about you or the other people who chose to cruise in the middle of a worldwide pandemic. Its about everything else that will happen and everyone else impacted (on and off the ship) if the worst was to happen and you caught it (or worse) because you were feeling "brave".

Again don't start going on that this is impossible and wont happen, just pointing out what the numbers are right now in comparison to a ship, and what the CDC/ port locals/ health professionals/anti-cruisers will be wanting to know.

 

[choirfarm]

People everywhere have mild & asymptomatic cases of Covid. But the world can't stop spinning.

Cruise ships not sailing or even going out of business doesn't mean the world has stopped spinning. We can do without cruise ships and theme parks.

 

[T & R]

If you'd compared it to a hotel or to WDW, I would agree, but there is a world of difference between a pizza place or a bar and a cruise.

You are correct, many more millions go through a pizza place or bar making it way more dangerous than cruising. It is not correct that cruising is the sole industry that has had any action taken against it by the CDC. The amount of current Covid spread proves that the CDC's course of action was a poor choice and is not working.

Well I live in a place where all the bars are closed too!

If we do not count loopholes. I bet your Applebee's or Chili's bar is open. The problem is that the virus does not respect loopholes. We keep making these loopholes or exceptions. In the Applebee's near my area you can legally both drink and smoke at the bar (a CDC double whammy). My state does not have a state smoking ban and the Applebee's I am speaking of is grandfathered under the city ordinance smoking ban so smoking is still permitted. So the bar area is packed all day due to the number of unemployed. They are not shutdown because since they are technically a restaurant (even though the bar area is separated and clearly operating like a bar). Silly loopholes that help the spread that could easily be addressed by the CDC but they choose not to because it would be politically unpopular.

Being on this board I have discovered that cruisers are really not pushing back, so the CDC will continue to only regulate cruising out of all the industries in the world because they have found a group that really doesn't put up a fight. You even have people on this board saying that we can do without cruising. With support like that, no wonder the only course of action taken by the CDC during the largest pandemic in the agency's history is only against cruising. How many have come on here and said we can do without bars? Do a CDC bar ban and watch the pushback, they don't want to take that on.

 

[mmmears]

Remember that old platitude we all heard as kids? Two wrongs don't make a right? Bars here are closed, thankfully, and so is indoor dining. But even though some places think it's a good idea to open up bars or whatever, it doesn't mean it's a good idea to open up cruising. The entire argument is just a distraction. It's not safe to be in a closed, confined space with no ability to spread apart, it's not safe to work and live on a cruise ship (don't forget the crew is more confined and squished than we are), and that's the reason the ships aren't sailing.

If the US got our act together and this virus wasn't pretty much everywhere, you might see ships going out carefully. But at this point it's pretty much a guarantee that people would bring it aboard and spread it. And I'm so tired of hearing that "most" people don't get sick. They do. What are considered "mild" symptoms are not all that mild. And people are dying. Perhaps the CDC and even the cruise lines don't want to put all of the passengers and crew at risk for no reason. We are already over 150K dead right now - that's a lot of people and if that doesn't wake people up I'm not sure anything will.

Do I want my life back? Yes. Do I want to be able to travel? Yes, particularly abroad which I cannot do anyway. I know people who have lost family members due to COVID. I know people who tested positive (and no, even the young, healthy 20-somethings who are in great shape won't tell you that it's nothing and it's easy to get over). I just don't see how not being able to take a cruise is that big a deal when so many other things have been disrupted. And I say this, sadly, at a time when I should be packing and getting ready to fly to Copenhagen to board the Magic.

 

[DisneYE]

Do I want my life back? Yes. Do I want to be able to travel? Yes, particularly abroad which I cannot do anyway. I know people who have lost family members due to COVID. I know people who tested positive (and no, even the young, healthy 20-somethings who are in great shape won't tell you that it's nothing and it's easy to get over). I just don't see how not being able to take a cruise is that big a deal when so many other things have been disrupted. And I say this, sadly, at a time when I should be packing and getting ready to fly to Copenhagen to board the Magic.

Great post.
Excellent posts on this thread all around.
Every time I read one like this and like @bbel 's above, I Wonder:
How. Just HOW does the cruise industry gets back to sailing again.
I can't see it. Even with a vaccine, I just can't.
I keep asking myself: what does a cruise get to do when a few CV cases pop up aboard?
You can't just quarantine them bc this virus spreads like wildfire.
And they can't be returning to a port each time a person is infected. It would destroy the experience.
Again, how does it get back to normal?
Gosh.

 

[T & R]

You can't just quarantine them bc this virus spreads like wildfire.

It would be great if the CDC could focus on the actual wildfire we already have instead of the hypothetical non-existent cruising one. Cruising may not be a big deal to most, the big deal is the CDC's tunnel vision where they have only focused on cruising. Tunnel vision that has worsened the spread and costs lives. No other industry in world received any additional regulation by the CDC during this pandemic, a huge mistake that is proven every day when the positive cases area tallied up even though there are no cruises to blame for the results. Whether or not cruising should resume or if cruising is safe are other issues. My argument is that I find it hard to believe that more could not be done other than a cruise ban. So far that has been all we have received from the CDC during the largest pandemic in our lifetimes. Way beyond inefficiency.

 

[bbel]

It would be great if the CDC could focus on the actual wildfire we already have instead of the hypothetical non-existent cruising one. Cruising may not be a big deal to most, the big deal is the CDC's tunnel vision where they have only focused on cruising. Tunnel vision that has worsened the spread and costs lives. No other industry in world received any additional regulation by the CDC during this pandemic, a huge mistake that is proven every day when the positive cases area tallied up even though there are no cruises to blame for the results. Whether or not cruising should resume or if cruising is safe are other issues. My argument is that I find it hard to believe that more could not be done other than a cruise ban. So far that has been all we have received from the CDC during the largest pandemic in our lifetimes. Way beyond inefficiency.

The whole (travel) world is watching the Tui and MSC cruises and I guess all we can do is hope that they can prove the CDC wrong.

But if it goes wrong, I doubt the CDC will back off.

Like I say, my income depends on ships. I want to go back. I do think the CDC have treated ships unfairly, especially with crew repatriations. I had many friends spend over 100 days onbaord because they made it so hard to get home. Over 100 days onboard a virus free ship and the CDC said they were the biggest risk of spreading it....
So no, I am far from a fan of the CDC, but, with how quickly Covid appears on the handful of sailings that have happened so far, I can also see their point.
But as an outsider looking into the US, yes they absolutely need to look at their own backyard too.

 

[Starwind]

It would be great if the CDC could focus on the actual wildfire we already have instead of the hypothetical non-existent cruising one. Cruising may not be a big deal to most, the big deal is the CDC's tunnel vision where they have only focused on cruising. Tunnel vision that has worsened the spread and costs lives. No other industry in world received any additional regulation by the CDC during this pandemic, a huge mistake that is proven every day when the positive cases area tallied up even though there are no cruises to blame for the results. Whether or not cruising should resume or if cruising is safe are other issues. My argument is that I find it hard to believe that more could not be done other than a cruise ban. So far that has been all we have received from the CDC during the largest pandemic in our lifetimes. Way beyond inefficiency.

CDC has published plentiful guidance for many industries. However, most industries do not fall under the CDC's lawful authority.

You've cited bars as one example. CDC does not have the lawful authority to regulate bars, they fall under local and/or state regulatory authority.

CDC's ability to actually regulate an industry is somewhat limited in the grand scheme of things when you look at what they are able to.

For example, the Vessel Sanitation Program (VSP) we are all familiar with - is the CDC program that "assists the cruise ship industry to prevent and control the introduction, transmission, and spread of gastrointestinal (GI) illnesses on cruise ships" (https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/default.htm). Read the US Code that allows it ( https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/264 ) and see the constraints [for humans, for example,"shall be applicable only to individuals coming into a State or possession from a foreign country or a possession"; and overall the "Nothing in this section or section 266 of this title, or the regulations promulgated under such sections, may be construed as superseding any provision under State law (including regulations and including provisions established by political subdivisions of States), except to the extent that such a provision conflicts with an exercise of Federal authority under this section or section 266 of this title.". I think we would all agree VSP is a good thing, but it has its limits in law on what it can do.

Likewise, CDC is otherwise constrained in how much it can do.

They have the Federal Quarantine Act. They can regulate intersate and federal quarantine. They can regulate certain laboratories. There are some other places and things they can regulate.

But a bar ? A restaurant ? That is up to the state or local jurisdiction. The CDC can advise. They can put out guidance. They can strongly recommend. But it is up to local/state authorities to act. Or not. Its a core tennet of the US system of government.

So the CDC will regulate what is within its purvue to do -- which in this specific case is cruise ships.

But there is also regulation of international aviation. Relatively early on the number of US airports that could accept international flights was limited to certain designated ones, and various kinds of federal quarantine regulations were put in place for international travelers - including for example that even right now travelers from certain countries are not allowed to enter the US unless they fall under certain specified exemptions [the UK comes to mind as one so affected country].

Yes, they did not outright ban all international flights, because international air travel was deemed to be, in certain circumstances, still essential travel. Wheras cruising is deemed as non-essential travel.

 

[Snowwhyt]

Just HOW does the cruise industry gets back to sailing again....
Even with a vaccine, I just can't.
I keep asking myself: what does a cruise get to do when a few CV cases pop up aboard?
You can't just quarantine them bc this virus spreads like wildfire.
And they can't be returning to a port each time a person is infected. It would destroy the experience.

So I would say that once the vaccine is out those that do not choose to take the vaccine will be responsible for their choice as if they chose not to get the measles vaccine. But those (whom for health reasons) are unable to take the vaccine, my heart breaks for them.
Cruising will be absolutely unattainable in the future for those who are at risk and cannot be vaccinated. That change that will stick after 2020. Adults and children alike, former castaway members, previously unable to have shots because of compromising immunity have sailed for the last time. It breaks my heart that these people through no fault of their own but now I have to give up sailing.
Peoples right to decline the vaccine is going to take somebody’s right to cruise.

 

[ironz]

This is true.
But also, WDW or hotels aren't entirely valid comparisons.
If you get sick in those places, you'll either go home or to a hospital.
Where do you go if someone gets the virus on a cruise? Get the the ship to alter course in the middle of the ocean so John and Karen can go to a hospital?
It happened on the last DCL cruise, the WBPC (yes THAT cruise - we were there), there was a medical emergency and the ship had to turn back to Grand Cayman.
Imagine 10 or more passengers showing symptoms onboard. It would disrupt the entire cruise.

Honestly I can't imagine how cruise lines are planning to deal with this.
This is why I don't see the cruise industry/CDC/other orgs letting ships sail normally for the next 6 months.
And this saddens me a lot.

And, people also need to keep in mind the availability of medical care in some of the ports, such as those on the Alaska cruises. Skagway basically has no hospital. Juneau has a small hospital, Ketchikan's is smaller than Juneau's. If multiple passengers got sick to the point of needing hospitalization and all debarked at one port, you can radically change the availability of medical care to a community's own residents. Not to mention, then introduce more disease into the towns, who have been doing (mostly) well to contain the disease, though are probably getting more cases from travelers than they would like.