75 employees laid off at Pixar, including the director of Lightyear

[leiaorgana]

Mario/Nintendo already has a decades long established fanbase though so it was always going to do well regardless. There was a small controversy over Chris Pratt voicing Mario at first but it wasn’t enough to put people off or the people that were on the fence about it went to hate watch it anyway and then enjoyed it. (Haven’t seen it myself yet so can’t comment on it).

And yes, you could argue that Pixar and Disney too both have decades long fanbase as well so it should be a piece of cake for them to get people in seats but I do think personally that Elemental wasn’t marketed properly and that people weren’t really sure what it was about and just decided to wait for it to be on Disney+ and I’m very much one of those people as well. As someone who puts the B in LGBT, some of the more recent takes on this thread have been very jarring for me to read and I personally don’t think it was a representation thing that put people off going to watch Elemental. Money’s tight in a lot of places right now and especially outside of the US. I very much fall into the current category of “why would I pay to go see Elemental/Indy 5/TLM remake/GOTG Vol. 3 at the cinema when they’ll be on Disney+ in a few months time and I’m already paying for that so I can happily just wait a little longer to see them?” I’m not sure about cinema costs in the US but in some parts of the U.K. (like the cities) it can easily cost way over £100 for a family of four (for example) to go see a film and that’s just ticket prices alone. It doesn’t even factor in snacks and parking so I really do think the pandemic and Disney+ especially changed people’s viewing/cinema going habits and I can say that for myself too. Why would I want to go to a dirty cinema filled with annoying people who don’t know how to behave and I end up missing chunks of the film to go to the restroom when I could just simply wait a little longer and enjoy a film from the comfort of my home?

Of course the big blockbusters that are best viewed on a bigger screen are going to pull more people in but unfortunately, I just don’t think people are prepared to cough up for films that they’re not sure about until word of mouth spreads about them. The Barbieheimer meme has been the best marketing tool for the cinema in years and maybe Disney and other studios need to lean more into that and support other films to start getting butts back in seats as a whole.

 

[Frogman88]

I mean all these folks on this forum act like I have never see the re-imagine Tomorrow initiative info. They pretty much told you what they planned to do, then went to work doing it. I knew it was a mistake from the beginning and a certain portion of the customer base would recoil from this mess. It's not rocket surgery to quote a buddy of mine.

Notice what Iger did quietly a few weeks ago.......let go of his CDO who drove a bunch of this stuff. The man is no dummy.

Yep he told the CDO either resign gracefully or we will have to fire you.

The CDO was the one signing off on these terrible decisions while seeing profits erase daily.

Chapek and Iger must have a been a sleep on the wheel if they didn’t see this disaster coming. So they double down on this bet thinking ok the loud voices must be the ones bringing more profits let’s cater to them. Ooof what a bad call they should also fire their research marketing analyst team for not advising honestly and not seeing which groups were the ones bringing in the profit volumes.

 

[Frogman88]

Mario/Nintendo already has a decades long established fanbase though so it was always going to do well regardless. There was a small controversy over Chris Pratt voicing Mario at first but it wasn’t enough to put people off or the people that were on the fence about it went to hate watch it anyway and then enjoyed it. (Haven’t seen it myself yet so can’t comment on it).

And yes, you could argue that Pixar and Disney too both have decades long fanbase as well so it should be a piece of cake for them to get people in seats but I do think personally that Elemental wasn’t marketed properly and that people weren’t really sure what it was about and just decided to wait for it to be on Disney+ and I’m very much one of those people as well. As someone who puts the B in LGBT, some of the more recent takes on this thread have been very jarring for me to read and I personally don’t think it was a representation thing that put people off going to watch Elemental. Money’s tight in a lot of places right now and especially outside of the US. I very much fall into the current category of “why would I pay to go see Elemental/Indy 5/TLM remake/GOTG Vol. 3 at the cinema when they’ll be on Disney+ in a few months time and I’m already paying for that so I can happily just wait a little longer to see them?” I’m not sure about cinema costs in the US but in some parts of the U.K. (like the cities) it can easily cost way over £100 for a family of four (for example) to go see a film and that’s just ticket prices alone. It doesn’t even factor in snacks and parking so I really do think the pandemic and Disney+ especially changed people’s viewing/cinema going habits and I can say that for myself too. Why would I want to go to a dirty cinema filled with annoying people who don’t know how to behave and I end up missing chunks of the film to go to the restroom when I could just simply wait a little longer and enjoy a film from the comfort of my home?

Of course the big blockbusters that are best viewed on a bigger screen are going to pull more people in but unfortunately, I just don’t think people are prepared to cough up for films that they’re not sure about until word of mouth spreads about them. The Barbieheimer meme has been the best marketing tool for the cinema in years and maybe Disney and other studios need to lean more into that and support other films to start getting butts back in seats as a whole.

One of their biggest markets is Asia and China refuses to put any of those movies in their theatre's. People are fatigued with this stuff they just want to be entertained. They go to the movies to distract themselves from reality not constantly be bombarded with social agendas.

 

[leiaorgana]

And what about LGBTQIA+, disabled people and minorities who want to be entertained too by seeing themselves on screen and escaping from reality by losing themselves in fantasy worlds? Why is it such a problem to see someone different from you included in a piece of fiction? Having someone of a different sexuality or background in a piece of media doesn’t automatically make it political. It’s just representing a wider chunk of the global population that exists out there.

 

[Smugpugmug]

And what about LGBTQIA+, disabled people and minorities who want to be entertained too by seeing themselves on screen and escaping from reality by losing themselves in fantasy worlds? Why is it such a problem to see someone different from you included in a piece of fiction? Having someone of a different sexuality or background in a piece of media doesn’t automatically make it political. It’s just representing a wider chunk of the global population that exists out there.

I came out when I was 15 years old. I would love for LGBT teens now to have the rep that I didn't really have when I was that age. The closest I had was, what I referenced earlier in this thread, anime.

 

[leiaorgana]

I came out when I was 15 years old. I would love for LGBT teens now to have the rep that I didn't really have when I was that age. The closest I had was, what I referenced earlier in this thread, anime.

Anime is a good one for it and I completely understand where you’re coming from. I guess people who haven’t been through those experiences don’t necessarily always see why it’s so important for others to have that representation and see it as a personal attack some times when it really isn’t. We just want to see people like us as fully formed characters too and not just used as checkmarks for corporations to pat themselves on the back or be sidelined as the butt of the joke or killed off for shock value. Healthy representation is important to everyone - not just certain demographics but to all girls, boys, trans kids and people who identify as neither growing up and adults later in life. Everyone deserves a hero or a character that they can relate to in some way.

 

[Frogman88]

And what about LGBTQIA+, disabled people and minorities who want to be entertained too by seeing themselves on screen and escaping from reality by losing themselves in fantasy worlds? Why is it such a problem to see someone different from you included in a piece of fiction? Having someone of a different sexuality or background in a piece of media doesn’t automatically make it political. It’s just representing a wider chunk of the global population that exists out there.

Oh of course but organically not like this. This is forced and even you should be speaking against this type of pandering. Now everything is about that and doesn’t even feel genuine.

And I agree 100% someone’s sexual preference should not be a political one but unfortunately that’s what the LGBTQIA+ community has done. I don’t like politics so I won’t continue with that conversation but this is identity politics which has been pushed very hard as of lately by one specific side which is sad.

Now thinking in a business perspective if one of my main consumers just wants good entertainment with original creativity to escape reality without making about a specific group and I decide to go in another direction well my profits will slowly decrease to the point of having to fire people due to them choosing over their own personal agendas instead of pursuing what the business was meant to do.

 

[BrianL]

To add:

Does the story of Lightyear change in any way if Commander Hawthorne is married to a man? No.
Does the story of Strange World change any if Ethan has a crush on a girl at school? No.
Does the story of Elemental change at all if they don't passingly mention a non-binary background character once? No.

Now, ask yourself:

Do you know any gay married copules?
Do you know any teenagers who have a same-sex crush?
Have you ever seen a non-binary person?

That is life experience. It is being shown on screen. It shouldn't threaten anybody.

 

[Smugpugmug]

Anime is a good one for it and I completely understand where you’re coming from. I guess people who haven’t been through those experiences don’t necessarily always see why it’s so important for others to have that representation and see it as a personal attack some times when it really isn’t. We just want to see people like us as fully formed characters too and not just used as checkmarks for corporations to pat themselves on the back or be sidelined as the butt of the joke or killed off for shock value. Healthy representation is important to everyone - not just certain demographics but to all girls, boys, trans kids and people who identify as neither growing up and adults later in life. Everyone deserves a hero or a character that they can relate to in some way.

I agree wholeheartedly. I mentioned in another post that I wasn't phased when I saw the characters of Neptune and Uranus from Sailor Moon in a relationship but truthfully it felt very...releaving to me? The fact that I witnessed a lesbian relationship where the couple deeply loved and respected each other on a personal level. That really, personally spoke to me as a young teenager. I feel teary eyed posting this now since it feels so raw but it proves how important this rep this is to young LGBT teens and that I will be on their side as a semi older part of the community.

 

[BrianL]

I came out when I was 15 years old. I would love for LGBT teens now to have the rep that I didn't really have when I was that age. The closest I had was, what I referenced earlier in this thread, anime.

Isn't a lot of anime a little..."fan-service-ish," though? I am not super familiar with a ton of it, but is it real representation or is it just for titilation? I honestly don't know, but I've seen some that was....well, you know.

 

[Frogman88]

To add:

Does the story of Lightyear change in any way if Commander Hawthorne is married to a man? No.
Does the story of Strange World change any if Ethan has a crush on a girl at school? No.
Does the story of Elemental change at all if they don't passingly mention a non-binmary background character once? No.

Now, ask yourself:

Do you know any gay married copules?
Do you know any teenagers who have a same-sex crush?
Do you even seen a non-binary person?

That is life experience. It is being shown on screen. It shouldn't threaten anybody.

Agree but what about when it’s forced?

If that’s the case then people should be shocked if this company is firing people and no longer bringing in profits. In business it’s a death kiss for a company as big as Disney to choose sides or make things political or ideological.

 

[BrianL]

Agree but what about when it’s forced?

If that’s the case then people should be shocked if this company is firing people and no longer bringing in profits. In business it’s a death kiss for a company as big as Disney to choose sides or make things political or ideological.

Was it "forced" though in any of those cases? Was it "forced" in Spider-Verse?

 

[BrianL]

I agree wholeheartedly. I mentioned in another post that I wasn't phased when I saw the characters of Neptune and Uranus from Sailor Moon in a relationship but truthfully it felt very...releaving to me? The fact that I witnessed a lesbian relationship where the couple deeply loved and respected each other on a personal level. That really, personally spoke to me as a young teenager. I feel teary eyed posting this now since it feels so raw but it proves how important this rep this is to young LGBT teens and that I will be on their side as a semi older part of the community.

Also, doesn't it suck to realise that you're "semi older" now?

 

[Frogman88]

Was it "forced" though in any of those cases? Was it "forced" in Spider-Verse?

Personally I didn’t watch it.

But I have seen what some people argue by it being forced. Maybe you will never see it because you are leaning towards one side but me I’m a centrist and like to hear both sides.

I hear one side but and the other but if im in the business of entertaining people and therefore my goal is to make profits then I would remain neutral not forceful. Especially if one group is much larger than the other.

 

[Smugpugmug]

Isn't a lot of anime a little..."fan-service-ish," though? I am not super familiar with a ton of it, but is it real representation or is it just
for titilation? I honestly don't know, but I've seen some that was....well, you know.

The answer to that is yes. A lot of anime is like that but you need to curate your feed so to speak so that it isn't full of that stuff. Don't ask me since I just watch One Piece LOL One Piece isn't doing too bad on the rep front though. The most current arc has a transgender character that everyone excepts for their awful dad (who doesn't respect them).

Also, doesn't it suck to realise that you're "semi older" now?

LOL yes. I am 26 and even then I feel like an elder in the younger LGBT community. These kids have zero clue how a VHS works.

 

[BrianL]

Personally I didn’t watch it.

But I have seen what some people argue by it being forced. Maybe you will never see it because you are leaning towards one side but me I’m a centrist and like to hear both sides.

I hear one side but and the other but if im in the business of entertaining people and therefore my goal is to make profits then I would remain neutral not forceful. Especially if one group is much larger than the other.

Hey, I'm very much a moderate. I've seen it be forced too, mostly in comic books, where the bar for quality writing is quite low. To me forced, is when a character is suddenly gay despite having been around for 50 years and never was before. Forcecd is when the gay superhero can only solve the "gay problems" and only fight the anti-gay villains. Forced is when the characters are always mentioning how they are gay and how they have had challenges in life because of that. Seriously, we need a Bechdel Test for gay characters to talk about something other than being gay. I know gay people and they rarely actually talk about it.

That kind of ham-fisted stuff really does turn off audiences, mostly because it's just bad storytelling. I have not though seen anything even close to that in any recent mainstream films, Disney or otherwise.

 

[Frogman88]

Completely agree! I also have friends and family and they don’t force it or talk about it non stop.

They just carry on like everyone else. That will be a good test for them. This actually a very interesting and good point can they continue the story without forcing their sexual preference.

What a good point.

 

[nancipants]

The "forced" vs. "organic" argument is always interesting to me as a writer. EVERYTHING that you write is forced, because it's not real. It's all made up. When I write stories I deliberately create a diverse cast because to me, that's interesting. I got a critical review from someone who said I shouldn't have shoehorned my main character's sexual preferences. But the reviewer only said this after the MC (a woman) developed feelings for another woman. Previously, she was romantically involved with a male character, and the reviewer had no problem with that. Why?

If anything is forced in Hollywood lately, it's the MCU and those types of universes, where every story leads to another one.

 

[BrianL]

The "forced" vs. "organic" argument is always interesting to me as a writer. EVERYTHING that you write is forced, because it's not real. It's all made up. When I write stories I deliberately create a diverse cast because to me, that's interesting. I got a critical review from someone who said I shouldn't have shoehorned my main character's sexual preferences. But the reviewer only said this after the MC (a woman) developed feelings for another woman. Previously, she was romantically involved with a male character, and the reviewer had no problem with that. Why?

If anything is forced in Hollywood lately, it's the MCU and those types of universes, where every story leads to another one.

I think the goal though is to make the reader believe the things that are happening in the story - for them to understand the character's feelings. The writer has to establish certain rules and certain traits, etc. It would only feel forced if it was totally out of left field and then suddenly became the only thing that was important. That's what I see sometimes.

Now, when people don't like something, then they always call it forced. It's jumping at shadows? There's a female character? Oh, she's just gonna take over and make all the males look dumb! Oh, a gay character, eh? I'm sure they will be better at everything than everybody else. That's not even what happens, but once that preconceived notion is there, that's all they see.

 

[irlandaise]

Please provide proof that any Disney movie has been created with that process.

No, you provide proof it hasn't?

That's now how this works. I'm not the one who made the claim. You are, so you're the one who has to prove it.

I can see it clearly with my eyes.

What I've seen you say in these threads is that there are characters who aren't straight or White and that you think they were forced into the movie. You have provided no proof that Disney decided that the presence of such characters was more important than telling a good story.

It can be the case that (1) non-traditional characters are in a movie and (2) the movie isn't one of Disney's best without those two factors being causally related. If you want to claim that they are, you need to cite references that prove Disney chose not to put story first.

By the way, when you say you can "see it clearly with my eyes," last I knew you hadn't even seen "Elemental", which is one of the movies you've posted about repeatedly. Have you now seen it? If so, how exactly is Lake presented as non-binary?