The Running Thread—2023

I ran the Cape Fear 24 hour Endurance Challenge in Lillington, NC this weekend.
Congratulations on another epic adventure! I've never been brave enough to even consider a race of this length. Way to show perseverance in getting through the not so great parts to hit the 100K mark. Quite an accomplishment even if it wasn't the goal you were originally shooting for.
 
I’m about to start training for a spring marathon. I did a local run club marathon training program for my last full and by the end I was just doing the runs on my own to fit my schedule, so I’m not going to do it this time. This time I’m trying to decide between doing an app like Runna or use Hansons beginner. I really want to incorporate strength training and I like that Runna is in your ear during the workout to help you adjust pace. However, I know a lot of people have found great success with Hansons.

For reference- I’m a full time working mother of 2, last marathon was 4:01 and I really want to break that 4 hr mark with some time to spare. Thanks for any insights!
I used Hanson to finally get my BQ and set a PR in the process. I really like their model and while it doesn't explicitly include any strength training I did add legs days at the gym.

I used a modified plan than what they have in the book to keep my maximum miles closer to 60 instead of 80 and it was a 6 day a week plan. I had to run around work and family and it required buy in from my wife to have success. I had days I did my runs during work since I could just block out an hour or two and go run and a lot of nights the run was late so I had some time at home with my son before heading out.

It is by far the most success I've had with a plan and I'd recommend it to anyone but the only way it worked was to do all of the workouts.
 
Thanks for the feedback! 60 miles sounds much nicer than 80 with my schedule (and also why I decided on the beginner program). I wish I knew what workouts would be like on the Runna app, everything I’ve found has been high level in terms of types of workouts rather than distance or time. I do want to have some weights mixed in, so I’ll probably do some short Peloton strength for runners mixed in.
 
Thanks for the feedback! 60 miles sounds much nicer than 80 with my schedule (and also why I decided on the beginner program). I wish I knew what workouts would be like on the Runna app, everything I’ve found has been high level in terms of types of workouts rather than distance or time. I do want to have some weights mixed in, so I’ll probably do some short Peloton strength for runners mixed in.

Are you looking to do strength at home or at a gym? If you are looking for home my recommendation would be to get some kettle bells. When the pandemic started I got an order for a few different weights in and can get in a decent lower body workout with them. It doesn't replace the gym for me but during a marathon training cycle when I'm just looking to add some lower body stuff it works.
 
I’m about to start training for a spring marathon. I did a local run club marathon training program for my last full and by the end I was just doing the runs on my own to fit my schedule, so I’m not going to do it this time. This time I’m trying to decide between doing an app like Runna or use Hansons beginner. I really want to incorporate strength training and I like that Runna is in your ear during the workout to help you adjust pace. However, I know a lot of people have found great success with Hansons.

For reference- I’m a full time working mother of 2, last marathon was 4:01 and I really want to break that 4 hr mark with some time to spare. Thanks for any insights!

Hansons has tons of plans to choose from on Final Surge or Training Peaks. They are not free, but there are 5 and 6 day plans with varieties of weekly mileage. You can push the workouts to your Garmin if you want. There is also a FB group (LHR Running Community) with all levels of runners if you need advice.

I really like Hanson plans. I tell everyone though that the “beginner” plans are a lie. They are super easy the first few weeks, but then they ramp up hard and fast. A family member brand new to running did not listen to me and is on their second injury of their training cycle.

ETA: I wasn’t trying to talk you out of Hansons with that tangent about my family member 😂
 
Hansons has tons of plans to choose from on Final Surge or Training Peaks. They are not free, but there are 5 and 6 day plans with varieties of weekly mileage. You can push the workouts to your Garmin if you want. There is also a FB group (LHR Running Community) with all levels of runners if you need advice.

I really like Hanson plans. I tell everyone though that the “beginner” plans are a lie. They are super easy the first few weeks, but then they ramp up hard and fast. A family member brand new to running did not listen to me and is on their second injury of their training cycle.

ETA: I wasn’t trying to talk you out of Hansons with that tangent about my family member 😂

I second this. I would not recommend any first time marathoners use Hanson unless they are already doing a lot of miles. I'm sure a D1 10K runner doing 100 mpw would adapt just fine but even fast mere mortals like us really should have at least one marathon in the books in my opinion before using Hanson.
 
I second this. I would not recommend any first time marathoners use Hanson unless they are already doing a lot of miles. I'm sure a D1 10K runner doing 100 mpw would adapt just fine but even fast mere mortals like us really should have at least one marathon in the books in my opinion before using Hanson.

I know you have seen this, but here’s a visual of ramping up fast and hard if others are curious. This is from the Hansons Beginner marathon plan.

1697561634316.jpeg

Miles nearly double from week 5 to 6 and (counting extra mileage from strides) you are never running less than 40 miles a week. Weeks 1-5 are all at easy pace then bam!!! Week 6 brings you one of my most loved & hated workouts…12x400m repeats. This chart is wrong with the mileage at 12.6. It’s usually closer to 9 miles for that workout. The long run in week 6 also has you doing it at marathon tempo.
 
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Race Report - Cape Fear 24 Hour Endurance Challenge
[You spin me right round]

I ran the Cape Fear 24 hour Endurance Challenge in Lillington, NC this weekend. The race is run entirely on a flat 0.59 mile asphalt paved loop in a local park. My goal was to see how far I could go in 24 hours, setting a new distance PR with an unlikely outside shot at 100 miles, while seeing if I could expand my ability to eat real foods during an ultra and get past the 18 hour mark or so without a repeat of the hypothermic incident I had a couple of years ago in a different race.

Race day temperatures were very nice, projected to be in the 60s all day. Unfortunately, it was rain and cloud cover projected to keep the temps down, although the rain was forecast to pass by 10am or so. We started promptly at 8am under a light drizzle and set off around the course. There's not too much to report on a loop that size, other than running the laps was not nearly as onerous as I had feared. The forecasters had, however, missed the metaphorical boat with their prediction. The rain came in waves from light to downpour for the first 7h 45m of the race. The course quickly had areas of both standing water and overflowing water that we had to run through and shoes and socks were saturated.

Rain aside, things were going very well and the race supplied a huge variety of foods (from hot and fresh to pre-packaged) and beverages at its aid station. I was able to try a number of different things with a couple of surprising favorites being fresh hot grilled cheese sandwiches and oatmeal cream pies. Both sat extremely well on my stomach and I ended up not needing any of the nutrition I'd brought with me.

By the time the rain ended it had set in motion a number of issues, though. The first two issues to strike in tandem were the onset of a migraine from the weather's passage coupled with my tibialis flaring up. Remarkably, the Campbell University Department of Osteopathic Medicine had sent a doctor and group of med students to assist at the race. What a great resource to have! They massaged out my tibialis and stretched my hamstrings to completely resolve that issue. Unfortunately, the migraine just wouldn't pass and I was forced to medicate it. One of the side effects from the medication is sensitization of my joints, so now every stride made my feet, ankles and knees ache. Still better than having the migraine and the joint discomfort eventually passed.

I had changed out my socks and shoes for dry ones as soon as the standing water on the course had subsided, but it turned out to be too little too late as I developed a severe blister on the bottom of my right forefoot. My pace had been slowed significantly by the rain, headache/side effects and time spent at the med station, so 100 miles had long since moved from "long shot" to impossibility. I was at ~49 miles, so I resolved to get through to the 100k mark, collect my medal, and call it a day (or two). It was back to the med station for what repairs they could offer my blisters.

The last 13 miles were not any that I'll look back fondly on, with a couple of extended breaks being taken to rest my feet. I finally crossed the finish line after my 105th lap just after 2am, having been on course for a little over 18 hours. I had no desire to push further to see if I could set a new distance PR, afraid if I pushed too far on the blistered feet I might do enough damage to put Dopey in jeopardy. It was a personal worst for the distance by ~3.5 hours, but given the circumstances and the fact that I completed my 3rd 100k I still consider it a mostly successful day. Final position was 46th overall out of 146 runners.

The race organization and set up were fantastic. I would 100% recommend this race and will strongly consider running it again in the future. The volunteers, food and drinks were top notch all day! Having the doctor and med students on hand kept a lot of runners going when they might otherwise have had to drop out.

I worry sometimes that reports like this can come across too negatively and I don't want to give the impression that it was all bad. I learned a lot about my ability to take in more fluids and calories during an ultra this weekend. I didn't experience any of the crash and burn hypothermic effects that I've run into as a result of insufficient calories in the past. Finally and most importantly I was able to overcome a combination of a terrible summer of training that limited my pace and distance (14m max long run) and race day conditions to complete a 100k!

As always, thanks for reading if you've made it this far! I hope this has been entertaining and maybe pointed out some mistakes that you don't have to make because I made them first. My favorite demotivational poster is the sinking ship captioned: "It could be that your purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others."
Terrific effort! A 100k is fantastic, no matter what! I think doing it in 0.59-mi loops makes it even more impressive. Hope the feet are heeling (see what I did there?) ok.
 
I’ve noticed that about Hanson’s- it starts out so nice and easy and then it hits! I bought the book a few years ago and thought I was an intermediate runner until I started reading the programming. Nope, I’ll stick with “beginner” even though I’ve done a ton of races.
 
I’m about to start training for a spring marathon. I did a local run club marathon training program for my last full and by the end I was just doing the runs on my own to fit my schedule, so I’m not going to do it this time. This time I’m trying to decide between doing an app like Runna or use Hansons beginner. I really want to incorporate strength training and I like that Runna is in your ear during the workout to help you adjust pace. However, I know a lot of people have found great success with Hansons.

For reference- I’m a full time working mother of 2, last marathon was 4:01 and I really want to break that 4 hr mark with some time to spare. Thanks for any insights!
As others have said, it really depends on your schedule and current training. How many days a week can you run? For how long? How many miles per week are you running currently? How do you plan to incorporate the strength work?

I'm not really familiar with Runna specifically, but some of the apps are good at adjusting your plan based on what you've actually completed, which can be very helpful when life happens.

Personally, I considered Hansons for my current marathon training, but ultimately decided against it because I wanted more variety in workouts and because of the weird mileage jump that @Bree mentioned. But lots of people have done really well with it, so it just depends what works best for you.

QOTD:
If you were going in incorporate 4 exercises for your core into your training, what would they be? (For this purpose, planks would be one, but side planks [which would include both left and right] would be a 2nd exercise.)
Interesting question! Maybe like deadbugs, plank up-downs, single-leg bridges, and side plank dips?
 
QOTD:
If you were going in incorporate 4 exercises for your core into your training, what would they be? (For this purpose, planks would be one, but side planks [which would include both left and right] would be a 2nd exercise.)
I concentrate on three, but one might count as 4 different exercises

1) Dead bugs
2) Don't know if this truly counts as one, but I call it the plank barbecue : side plank, front plank, side plank, back plank
3) Most important for me: TVA activation. I don't think my TVA ever fully recovered from my two babies and this always feels really good.
 
I have no experience with running for that type of a PR, but I do know what it's like to be a busy mom trying to train for a marathon.

Which plan fits your life better? For me, this is the biggest hurdle in every training block.

Is one more or fewer days per week of running? By "strength training" do you mean weight lifting, or do you mean runs centered around strength (such as hill repeats)? You didn't list it, but the Higdon plans usually incorporate "cross training" days which could be used for strength training (and he also has the "run with hal" app if that's an attractive feature for you.)
I second Hal Higdon as another option to consider. I started with one of his beginner plans and moved up to intermediate. I’ve also used his Dopey training plan and that worked wonderfully for me. For what it’s worth, I ran a 4:01 marathon last year and broke 4 this month using Higdon again. All of the plans are available for free on the website so you can see if anything looks like a good fit for you before committing.
 
I second Hal Higdon as another option to consider. I started with one of his beginner plans and moved up to intermediate. I’ve also used his Dopey training plan and that worked wonderfully for me. For what it’s worth, I ran a 4:01 marathon last year and broke 4 this month using Higdon again. All of the plans are available for free on the website so you can see if anything looks like a good fit for you before committing.
One of the neighbors in my new neighborhood uses Higdon. I think he gets a custom plan, but I don’t remember. He’s super happy with it. I was thinking of trying one of his plans just to check out the difference.
 
I’m about to start training for a spring marathon. I did a local run club marathon training program for my last full and by the end I was just doing the runs on my own to fit my schedule, so I’m not going to do it this time. This time I’m trying to decide between doing an app like Runna or use Hansons beginner. I really want to incorporate strength training and I like that Runna is in your ear during the workout to help you adjust pace. However, I know a lot of people have found great success with Hansons.

For reference- I’m a full time working mother of 2, last marathon was 4:01 and I really want to break that 4 hr mark with some time to spare. Thanks for any insights!

Of my 17 marathons, 8 of them have been with a Hansons plan of some sort. I've done Hansons Intermediate (x2), Hansons Advanced (x3), Hansons Hard, Hansons Elite, and a Hansons/Daniels mix. My first use of Hansons is what enabled me to finally break 4 hours on my 6th marathon. My previous PR was 4:20:34 and after Hansons I ran a 3:38:53. I would say that experience is atypical, but that's what I had happen for me. I've used several other plans (Galloway, FIRST, Daniels, TrainerRoad IronMan Full Volume, and Canova) and many times find myself gravitating back to Hansons. I actually think I haven't had a "bad" experience off a Hansons plan thus far. Six of my top seven marathon times are Hansons plans. Gotten my PR down to 3:14 from my first attempt at 4:50. Below is an old graph that I haven't updated, but shows the gist of my progression in all race distances.

1697568831775.png

Things definitely took off for me after using Hansons for the first time in 2015.

As others have touched on, the key questions are the following:

1) Do you have the time to commit to the plan as written? Your fitness level (4 hr marathon) is roughly what the Hansons plans are written for. Those that are slower need to adjust the mileage downwards, and those that are faster need to add more mileage to the plan. The adjustments on how to do that are discussed in the book. Because ultimately the Hansons plan is based on duration and written in mileage as an example. But the plan is best executed as written, so if for instance you know that doing a 120 min workout on Thursdays just doesn't work with your schedule, then if the scheduled runs say that in the training plan, maybe it's best to find a different plan. So before I do Hansons or any other plan, I convert the plan into duration using my current fitness pacing and the assigned mileage.

2) Have you peaked within at least 10 miles (or maybe no more than 1.5 hrs) of what the training plan you're looking at peaks at? If you go from peaking at 4hrs per week to peaking at 9hrs per week, it might be too much and you'll need some incremental plans before building up to that one. But if you peaked at 7.5 hrs before, then peaking at 9hrs for an attempt is worth a try. Although if you consistently find yourself injured on 7.5 hrs, then jumping higher may not be wise. Everyone seems to have slightly different sweet spots for balancing the training load with their own injury risk. I've got runners who do better on 5-6 hrs per week, and others who do better on 10-11 hrs per week.

The Hansons plan works well because it follows three key tenets.

1) It balances the mileage across the week.
2) It is really specific towards marathon pace towards the end.
3) You do most of your training at slower than marathon pace.

Many times (but not all) when I see someone not do well on Hansons, one of the three above tenets was altered.

I don't have experience with that running app, so I can't give any insights on it specifically. But that is part of the new age tech and more individualized training that is becoming more available to the recreational runners like us.
 

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