A Big part of the Big Problem... Staffing

[Disney Bobby]

Selling $5 ice cream is certainly worthy of $15 an hour. Selling $2 ice cream is not. THIS is what folks finally realized. The people actually doing the work were not sharing in the absurd profits. Disney got greedy and now they can't go back.

Not true. It's worth what the market justifies for the actual work. Right now, the job market is distorted due to lots of bad decisions by a lot of people. I don't care if it's $30 ice cream, unskilled labor is not worth commission based pay. And companies won't eat those costs. They will pass it on to customers. Don't be surprised to see $5 ice cream to turn into $7 or $8 ice cream. And by your logic, people will think they deserve $20 to hand out the same ice cream. Then it turns into $10 ice cream. It's unsustainable. What will ultimately happen is one person will be paid $15 an hour to fill up a bunch of ice cream vending machines. And the leadership at Disney will be ecstatic about that.

 

[New Mouse]

Not true. It's worth what the market justifies for the actual work. Right now, the job market is distorted right now due to lots of bad decisions by a lot of people. I don't care if it's $30 ice cream, unskilled labor is not worth commission based pay. And companies won't eat those costs. They will pass it on to customers. Don't be surprised to see $5 ice cream to turn into $7 or $8 ice cream. And by your logic, people will think they deserve $20 to hand out the same ice cream. Then it turns into $10 ice cream. It's unsustainable. What will ultimately happen is one person will be paid $15 an hour to fill up a bunch of ice cream vending machines. And the leadership at Disney will be ecstatic about that.

Or...they just will not have anyone to sell ice cream. When a company doesn't celebrate its financial success with all members of its team rather than just the top, there will be no team.

There is no correction for this, Disney gambled and lost and will never get back that level of service without a huge change in staffing philosophy.

 

[Disney Bobby]

Or...they just will not have anyone to sell ice cream. When a company doesn't celebrate its financial success with all members of its team rather than just the top, there will be no team.

There is no correction for this, Disney gambled and lost and will never get back that level of service without a huge change in staffing philosophy.

Oh yeah, there is a correction for it. Farmers in southern California figured it out when nobody wanted to pick their crops. IT companies figured it out when IT salaries went through the roof. They won't stop selling their expensive ice cream. They will just automate or change who is selling. The market at work.

Of course, Disney has been virtue signaling about wages for a few years. But they expected to be the leader and be held up as saviors. They never expected it to blow past $15 so fast and for them to have to go even further to compete. Expect automation to be a #1 priority for Disney in the coming years. The few people left will get their $15 or $20 an hour, but will work a lot harder for it. The rest will be left out in the cold.

But I do agree with you on one point. Success needs to be shared so some extent. That should happen through bonuses based on performance and years of service, not normal wages.

 

[MillauFr]

Anybody hoping for a recession so they can enjoy their theme park experience more should be ashamed of themselves.

No we need a correction so investors who are paying $80m an acre for property take it in the shorts.

 

[Biggen]

Part of the problem is the job pool requires higher pay but they aren’t any better for it.

For example, I own a retail gift shop in a large tourism destination. Three years ago I was paying ~$10/hr for starting employees. Now, I’m paying no less than $15/hr for new hires and some of my longer term employees I’m paying upwards of $17-$18/hr. These new employees I’m paying $15/hr for aren’t better than the ones I was paying $10 just a few years ago. I’m getting no more service or personality or skills out of them yet I still have to pay them 50% more than I was paying just three years ago.

So I’ve hired less than I usually hire with to mitigate costs that way. I’m also quicker to fire and cut them. I have no patience for crappy workers if I’m getting the same level of employee at a higher rate.

 

[mom2rtk]

No we need a correction so investors who are paying $80m an acre for property take it in the shorts.

I can only hope that’s sarcasm.

No love lost on the investors but I hope you see how catastrophic this will be for lots of little people.

 

[ChipnDale79]

Not true. It's worth what the market justifies for the actual work. Right now, the job market is distorted due to lots of bad decisions by a lot of people. I don't care if it's $30 ice cream, unskilled labor is not worth commission based pay. And companies won't eat those costs. They will pass it on to customers. Don't be surprised to see $5 ice cream to turn into $7 or $8 ice cream. And by your logic, people will think they deserve $20 to hand out the same ice cream. Then it turns into $10 ice cream. It's unsustainable. What will ultimately happen is one person will be paid $15 an hour to fill up a bunch of ice cream vending machines. And the leadership at Disney will be ecstatic about that.

and i'll say no thanks Disney, see ya.

Consumers do not have to allow disney to things like that.

 

[ChipnDale79]

Part of the problem is the job pool requires higher pay but they aren’t any better for it.

For example, I own a retail gift shop in a large tourism destination. Three years ago I was paying ~$10/hr for starting employees. Now, I’m paying no less than $15/hr for new hires and some of my longer term employees I’m paying upwards of $17-$18/hr. These new employees I’m paying $15/hr for aren’t better than the ones I was paying $10 just a few years ago. I’m getting no more service or personality or skills out of them yet I still have to pay them 50% more than I was paying just three years ago.

So I’ve hired less than I usually hire with to mitigate costs that way. I’m also quicker to fire and cut them. I have no patience for crappy workers if I’m getting the same level of employee at a higher rate.

it costs more for those employees to live now than it did 3 years ago. Its not fair to compare their work to pay from 3 years.

Thats part of the problem we're facing, is that over the years, inflation has continued to grow, yet wages havent, therefore people are making less money.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

50k is just getting by barely in most places.

Sorry.... $24/hr with Full benefits, Paid Training and No Degree? The job is not the problem.

 

[mom2rtk]

it costs more for those employees to live now than it did 3 years ago. Its not fair to compare their work to pay from 3 years.

Thats part of the problem we're facing, is that over the years, inflation has continued to grow, yet wages havent, therefore people are making less money.

So because life is more expensive, they should work less hard? I’m not following.

There are staffing shortages everywhere. If they don’t like the pay for the job, they should go avail themselves of some of those other opportunities.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

You do realize that McDonald's and Target are starting their employees at $15/hr? Why would anyone do physically demanding work in the Florida heat for $15/hr when they could go flip burgers or stock shelves in AC? That's just common sense.

Why? Short-sightedness. Because here is the thing. The employer who posted was teaching people a SKILL. Installing flooring. It's a skill that will help you for the rest of your life and you can turn it into a career if you have the mind and drive to do so.

Flipping burgers is not a skill. As people continue to demand higher and higher wages for unskilled labor, companies are going to continue to do the math about those robots that work 24 hours a day, do not require health care, benefits, and do not call in sick. They don't go in the backroom and hide in the boxes to avoid doing their work. They don't complain, don't sass, do their job and don't whine about wanting to work from home or demand significant raises for the same work. In fact, it's rather the opposite - their cost goes down over time.

The math will turn more and more in favor of automation the more these people make unreasonable demands for unskilled pay.

Even delivery jobs like the Uber Drivers and food delivery are relatively short in the scope of things as companies continue to invest in drones.

Skilled labor (like the ability to install floors) will be a LOT longer before they can really be automated effectively, if ever.

 

[MillauFr]

I can only hope that’s sarcasm.

No love lost on the investors but I hope you see how catastrophic this will be for lots of little people.

The little people have already been impacted by residential zoned property selling for upwards of $80m an acre. In Seattle they have been forced to move out to the suburbs in search of cheaper housing. They end up with very long commutes.

 

[Nayan]

"Flipping Burgers' is a skill...

https://news.yahoo.com/15-minimum-wage-debate-why-222600012.html

https://www.businessinsider.com/five-huge-myths-about-working-in-fast-food-2015-4

 

[TiggerBouncy]

"Flipping Burgers' is a skill...

https://news.yahoo.com/15-minimum-wage-debate-why-222600012.html

https://www.businessinsider.com/five-huge-myths-about-working-in-fast-food-2015-4

Flipping burgers is not a skill. It's labor, yes. Do you understand the difference between a skill and labor?

My first job was McDonalds. I think I learned how to properly flip a burger in about 20 seconds. It took me under a day to perfect making a Big Mac. A robot can learn it in significantly less time.

The things is...

Automation EXISTS for all of these things, and it's getter better at it every year. When labor is not unreasonable, the pace of automation development slows (why invest if you can get labor?). The longer this impasse goes on and workers demand unreasonable compensation, the faster the development of automation technology and when you cross a threshold, there is no going back.

In an ideal society, this happens over generations and those jobs are slowly absorbed. Right now, the workers are pushing that development to accelerate at too fast a pace which will bring the threshold around before those jobs can be absorbed.

We have seen it before in the automotive industry and steel industry which people would know if they ever studied history... but of course we have sacked education and history as well - after all, why get educated when you can demand unreasonable pay to flip a burger in AC... until of course it's too late. It's a nice little catch-22.

 

[BadPinkTink]

"Flipping Burgers' is a skill...

https://news.yahoo.com/15-minimum-wage-debate-why-222600012.html

https://www.businessinsider.com/five-huge-myths-about-working-in-fast-food-2015-4

totally agree. I will never forget the words of a teacher when discussing career options and people were dismissive of Mcdonalds and similar companies. She said that people dont understand the skills that these companies teach people, things like time management, teamwork, consistency, work ethics, customer service and how to deal with the general public and so many other transferable soft skills that are needed in the work force. They also offer a career progression path that many jobs don't. That a person can start flipping burgers and within a few years be managing their unit. That having Mcdonalds or another high profile similar company on your CV is a benefit and means that future employers know you have been trained to certain standards.

I always find it interesting when people who have always worked in the corporate world / Fortune 500 companies , who have never lived pay check to paycheck talk about low skilled workers and minimum wage jobs!

 

[ChipnDale79]

So because life is more expensive, they should work less hard? I’m not following.

There are staffing shortages everywhere. If they don’t like the pay for the job, they should go avail themselves of some of those other opportunities.

that is not what i'm saying at all.

I'm saying if you pay the same or slightly more than you did 3 years ago, chances are, you're not going to get as good of an employee that you did before. Those same type of people that you were paying that wage 3 years ago to, are probably working somewhere else for more money.

you get what you pay for.

You want good employees that work hard, then you've got to pay them well.

 

[ChipnDale79]

Flipping burgers is not a skill. It's labor, yes. Do you understand the difference between a skill and labor?

My first job was McDonalds. I think I learned how to properly flip a burger in about 20 seconds. It took me under a day to perfect making a Big Mac. A robot can learn it in significantly less time.

The things is...

Automation EXISTS for all of these things, and it's getter better at it every year. When labor is not unreasonable, the pace of automation development slows (why invest if you can get labor?). The longer this impasse goes on and workers demand unreasonable compensation, the faster the development of automation technology and when you cross a threshold, there is no going back.

In an ideal society, this happens over generations and those jobs are slowly absorbed. Right now, the workers are pushing that development to accelerate at too fast a pace which will bring the threshold around before those jobs can be absorbed.

We have seen it before in the automotive industry and steel industry which people would know if they ever studied history... but of course we have sacked education and history as well - after all, why get educated when you can demand unreasonable pay to flip a burger in AC... until of course it's too late. It's a nice little catch-22.

This was going to come to a head at some point. Wages have been stagnate for far too long while inflation has been growing for years.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

totally agree. I will never forget the words of a teacher when discussing career options and people were dismissive of Mcdonalds and similar companies. She said that people dont understand the skills that these companies teach people, things like time management, teamwork, consistency, work ethics, customer service and how to deal with the general public and so many other transferable soft skills that are needed in the work force. They also offer a career progression path that many jobs don't. That a person can start flipping burgers and within a few years be managing their unit. That having Mcdonalds or another high profile similar company on your CV is a benefit and means that future employers know you have been trained to certain standards.

I always find it interesting when people who have always worked in the corporate world / Fortune 500 companies , who have never lived pay check to paycheck talk about low skilled workers and minimum wage jobs!

I said Flipping burgers is not a skill. Running a store IS. There is a big difference between the two. But the point is a McDonalds does not need the number of laborers it currently has to run a store. Much of it CAN be automated reducing their labor costs significantly and thus putting about half their workforce out of work.

Again, it's a fundamental understanding of the difference between what is skilled labor (running a restaurant) and what is easily automated (having a robot flip a burger).

I would happily pay 3 people $25/hr to run the entire place as opposed to 6 at $15 where only 2 of them are skilled. Because those 6 workers also need backup workers in case they get sick (so now it's 8), and they need benefits, and they need management, and all kinds of other things.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

This was going to come to a head at some point. Wages have been stagnate for far too long while inflation has been growing for years.

Never said it was not. I said why choose a skilled job such as installing flooring as opposed to something much easier like stocking shelves in an AC building?

The answer is that this is going to happen, and it's happening too fast for society to absorb. You have a choice... you can be setting yourself up for a future as in the first case, or you can lie down in front of the steamroller that is coming your direction as is the case with flipping a burger or stocking a shelf.

Some people will choose the myopic view of choice B. Given the choice, I would rather set myself up for the future, even if the work is more difficult for the same pay.

 

[BrianL]

totally agree. I will never forget the words of a teacher when discussing career options and people were dismissive of Mcdonalds and similar companies. She said that people dont understand the skills that these companies teach people, things like time management, teamwork, consistency, work ethics, customer service and how to deal with the general public and so many other transferable soft skills that are needed in the work force. They also offer a career progression path that many jobs don't. That a person can start flipping burgers and within a few years be managing their unit. That having Mcdonalds or another high profile similar company on your CV is a benefit and means that future employers know you have been trained to certain standards.

I always find it interesting when people who have always worked in the corporate world / Fortune 500 companies , who have never lived pay check to paycheck talk about low skilled workers and minimum wage jobs!

You are correct, however one issue is that people have to avail themselves of the opportunities to advance. Coming in to "flip burgers" is entry level - and there is nothing wrong with that at all - but it was not a job that was intended to support a family. It was intended for young people entering the workforce. Now, a lot of aspects of our economy have changed since these jobs first came about, and certainly there is a need for some adjustments at this time. Wages, even minimum wages, should be reviewed as cost of living goes up. That said, I also see a lot of expectations out there, and not just in lower-level jobs, and some of it is unreasonable. The best solution will always be compromise, which has more and more become a forgotten concept.