A case of Disney®? You be the judge!

[KNWVIKING]

I guess one concept I have a hard time grasping up here in Jersey is making/selling/building a town. I guess it happens all the time in states with tons of open area.

While I love going & staying in WDW I'm not an old time Disney fanatic or Mousekateer,(sp). I don't believe in pixi dust or magic. I have my opinions about WDW and even ME that are all subjective and open to debate. But something as serious as spending $200K+ on a house in Celebration based on pixie dust is just unthinkable. If your lawyer reads the contract and tells you Disney has the legal right to do just about anything it wants in YOUR town and you still purchase because you just know Disney wouldn't do something like open a timeshare, then you have only yourself to blame.

I am curious about the failed education system. What happened,not enough kids to make it viable ? What is the median age,family size,etc in Celebration ?

 

[WDWHound]

Mr Scoop,

I still agree with you, my point is that its sad that Disney can now be used as an example for why this is necessary. I would have been happier if people had entered carefully into their contracts, only to find that not all their caution was needed. Instead it sounds like some people signed their contracts while wearing rose colered glasses regarding what the community should be like, only to find that Disney had other ideas later on.

Those who bought the houses must take responsibility for their lack of judgement, but Disney should take responsibility for promoting the community as something it is not (and possibly never could be).

In short, when a bad business deal is made, I hold both parties in low esteem, the one who was dumb enough to sign it, and the one who was unethical enough to take advantage of them. I had hoped I would never have reason to put Disney in in the latter group.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Well, well, well! I threw this out for you guys because I thought it was a little interesting and I hadn’t posted anything new in a while. And I do confess that I really don’t know much about Celebration. So for me it was a kind of throw-away piece. And I posted it for one reason, and one reason only: to show the power of the “brand”, or Disney®!! AV is always on about this subject, and to a lesser extent, so am I.

So if I may, I’d like to take this back to my original point for just a moment (at the risk of killing a potential 10 pager). Which is simply that the people who bought into Celebration with “faith” and “trust” in the Disney name are absolute certifiable knuckleheads!!! And before you think I’m flaming without thought and regard to those knuckleheads, I consider myself chief amongst their ranks. Remember I bought my DVC without benefit of seeing it first and I glanced at the closing papers as I signed them. OH! I listened intently to the sales agent. And I did work the numbers. (I’m not totally stupid, just a knucklehead!) But I trusted Disney to look after my interest. I LOVED Disney. I was loyal to Disney. They were almost family. So I signed and signed and signed some more. Trusting to the “BRAND”. It really wasn’t until I started to lurk on the DVC board that I understood that some of the things the sales people said, were not what the people on the board understood things to be. And you know what? The people on the Dis were right and my sales rep was wrong!! And it wasn’t just one bad rep, the message DVC was putting out throughout the entire company was that “Vacation club member owned a piece of the magic.”

As an example of the “special” Disney sale throughout the company I cite the following. We were at the Boardwalk (I think, it may have been the Swan) and a member of our party asked if we could take the boat to EPCOT. At the time it was strictly for resort guests. The CM told us as much and my mother said that we were DVC members. OH!!! The CM said. “Well, you guys can do pretty much anything you want!” And he meant it. Try that today. We were promised pool hopping. NO, NOT IN WRITING (part of being a knucklehead). Good forever - for everything - built or unbuilt. HA!! Not true!!! Not true at all!!!! AKL opened with big, “DVC MEMBERS NOT ALLOWED” signs posted in the lobby!! (well, I guess it wasn’t posted that way, but it may as well have been. We weren’t allowed, that’s for sure!!) And now the Beach Club pool is OFF-LIMITS!!!! It’s only a matter of time before…

Anyway, you get the picture. And the people, like my friend Dave, who defend or at least explain the facts of Disney life, are exactly right.

We were the knuckleheads!!

They are the knuckleheads!!

(I am the Walrus!)

I’m very sure there were others that bought their DVC the same way (I personally know of at least five other couples just off the top of my head!). And I’m equally sure that there are some that trusted the Disney “BRAND” when they signed the papers for their “Leave it to Beaver” house in Celebration. So, I empathize with them. Not in judgment but in a “been there, done that” kind of way.

I retrospect I couldn’t have been more naive and just plain dumb. Let’s face it. I wouldn’t put that kind of “faith” and “trust” in half (oh hell, three quarters) of my family members! And most of them haven’t shown the stupidity that Disney has lately!!!

Sir Raider!! You sized it up nicely!

Disney built the trust in its name through high quality products that for the most part, it had control of. Walt had great instincts for what people wanted for entertainment, and he delivered. But real estate is a completely different game.

Imagine that power (of the brand) with something less than a real estate interest!!!

My only point!

Thanks






PS: Ok, I'm done! Go back at it!!!!!

 

[KNWVIKING]

I purchased OKW in '98, James Thomas was my salesperson. He never promised me pool hopping for any length of time,he simply stated that it was a feature currently in effect if I choose to do it. I have know idea what other salesperson's promised but as a Service Manager in a very busy GMC dealership I've learned over & over that people have selective hearing.They only hear what they want to hear. When AKL opened I wasn't upset that pool hopping was not allowed, what bothered me was that the rational for not allowing it was to give the animals a chance to get acclimated to their new surroundings. Is the word "Idiot" tattoo'ed on my face ! Were they afraid of offending people with the simple truth that they want that pool to be used by AKL guests.

I personnally don't believe DCV has ever lied to me. I purchase OKW site-unseen as I did with VWL and BCV. I got exactly what I wanted, zero regrets.You refer back to the DVC Dis board: While I have learned a lot from that board I also get frustrated by members who think DVC and WDW owe them something. Example, early on,when OKW wasn't selling,DVD offered free park passes for x number of years as an incentive. Simple marketing ploy,got the ball rolling,no need to continue the incentive,no problem,right ?? Wrong. Even before the passes expired members who had them started *****ing that DVC has to do something for them to make up for the lose of free passes. Give me a break !

 

[raidermatt]

My DVC purchase was pretty much the same as Viking's, in that we weren't lied to in any way. We were told that things like pool hopping, and even the parks themselves, were not guaranteed.

However, I have seen too many people say they were told differently, including our trusted friend Mr. Baron, for me to think that our experience was shared by all.

Now, to Baron's point, I agree, that brand name is very powerful, and while we knew what we were getting into, I'd be lieing if I said the Disney name wasn't at least a nice "plus" in our decision making process.

I still think that brand carries more weight than some think it does. However, using it to sell a novel real estate plan to the people is very risky, especially if Disney isn't prepared to take its lumps (even if not required to by law) when it doesn't work out.

Sort of like the animated films. We've seen the Disney name go from being an implied guarantee of quality entertainment, to meaning virtually nothing, then, get re-built in the late 80's through mid-90's, only to slump again.

The overall Disney name never really lost its hold on the people, but things like Celebration can make that hold weaker.

Imagine that power (of the brand) with something less than a real estate interest!!!

Yes, extremely powerful, but along with that power comes the need to maintain it, which (I think) is the implied meaning of your post.

Or not.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK. I’m almost through with this. Just a couple more things:

To KNWVIKING:

I personally don't believe DCV has ever lied to me.

I don’t doubt that for a moment. But my experience was… ah… well… different! That is one of the main reasons I stay away from the DVC Board here. There are way too many discussions that degenerate into these kind of pointless arguments.

But even if they did “tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth…” I would still have the same post. Simply because the point wasn’t misrepresentation by Disney salespeople, it was to show how really strong the “brand” is in some people. Knuckleheaded people, I’ll grant you. Naive people, is a given. But “Disney” people one and all!

I purchase OKW site-unseen as I did with VWL and BCV. I got exactly what I wanted, zero regrets.

So far – me too!! But there is a danger. A very big danger. And not one that points to bus service (which sucks!) or pool hopping, or free tickets for the year 2000. It has to do with quality! It has to do with nickel and dimes. Slowly, those things that were taken for granted back in 1992 have been taken away. Little things. Those stupid little, seemingly inconsequential, things that I’m always on about (Mickey head butter, anyone?). Placemats. Certain utensils. TOWELS!!! SOAP!!! And on my last trip I noticed one whole building unit in BAD need of paint!!!!! Hopefully that will not be the case when I visit next time.

But the point is, I bought, not for the tickets (which were GREAT!). And not for the towels (which were plentiful). I bought because I knew and came to love Disney QUALITY. And the tickets, placemats, coffee, pool hopping, towels, soap and new paint (among other things) are all part of that quality.

Now, please don’t get me wrong. There is no arguing that the quality is still high. But not as high as in 1992. And I fear that the slippery slop that we see in the parks will infect (like a cancer) my dearly beloved DVC. Now who do I see about that?!?!?!

I say it is my fault for trusting them. For trusting the “Brand”. A mistake I won’t make again!!!

Sir Raider!!! I must admit that when you first started posting (or at least when I became aware of you) I thought you were a natural for my car. Maybe even as alternate driver. I gotta tell you, you’re recent posts haven’t changed my mind one iota!! Just look at how you cut through the nonsense and dive right into the heart of the matter (a clear trait of a car #3 person)!!

Yes, extremely powerful, but along with that power comes the need to maintain it, which (I think) is the implied meaning of your post.

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!!!!!

 

[Bob O]

I would agree with the buyer beware before signing on the doted line. But from reading a lot of articles and parts of two books on celebration it seems alot of people did receive similiar treatment that DVC talked about ahd feel the same way he does, only the price was a lot higher and it also affected their kids education.
From my understanding in celebration they were supposed to have a new education system where mutiple classes would be put together with new learning techniques/hi tech euip and graded in a different manner that would supposedly produce a more intelligent student but it was flawed from day one and was eventually scrapped but was sold big time as a reason to be part of the community. Now from what i have read they are putting in a public school in the community which has made alot of people unhappy as the school will bus in people from the surrounding area's who wont be at the same economic status/family structure as the members of Celebration. And i wouldnt be happy if i thought my child would be in a private type school setting and then that have done away with and instead by part of a public school system with all the problems that can bring with it.

 

[KNWVIKING]

Mickey head butter is still served at Shutters in the DVC VB resort.

 

[KNWVIKING]

I would be curious to know what the Celebration contract states about the school system. Can Celebration legally scrap the private school for public one. If I had purchased at Celebration with the anticipation of sending my kids to a state-of-the-art private school,but instead got a generic public school, then "stuff" would hit the fan. I still wonder how many school aged children actually live in Celebration.

 

[Galahad]

We looked at Celebration a few years ago and decided it was definitely NOT for us. But, that said....I've read a couple of books about it as well....don't know if they are the same ones that Bob read.... and they were decidely hit pieces, with one written by a couple of NY Times reporters who bought a house in Celebration expressly for the purpose of doing a book. Also, we went through a couple of pitches from the Celebration folks, the first year it opened and then a couple of years later, and they never offered or promised a private school. The school was to be "state of the art", but was always suppose to be part of the Osceola county school district.

 

[Another Voice]

As I understand it, initially the school in Celebration was supposed to be private, but it became affiliated with Osceola as part of the overall Disney-government negotiations about the entire project. The school itself was supposed to be a model for “new education techniques” and like most social experiments went with what was trendy among a small number of the fashionably elite rather than using real educators. The schools also turned out to be very expensive experiments as well and Disney has continually reduced its support over the years.

As for the books, neither one was a “hit piece”. Especially the book written by the couple from the Times; they were very open to everyone about exactly what they were doing. In fact one of the central themes of the book is how the residents were unfairly blaming Disney for problems that weren’t their fault and how the population, not Disney, had unrealistic expectations about the entire project.

 

[Galahad]

I disagree, especially about the book by the NY times couple. That book wasn't so much a "Disney" hit piece as a "Celebration" hit piece....as in..."look at all of the freaks living here". I also don't agree that they were all that open about what they were doing. A lot of residents say they were blind sided by them. Reporters from the NY times, of all places, are not going to devote that much of their lives to that kind of project and not get some "meat" out of it.

 

[Bob O]

I read parts of both books, didnt have a chance to read them all the way thru but i thought they highlighted both the good and bad and gave their opinons of the town and the concept of it.
I just know i wouldnt want my kids from a upper scale neighborhood going to school with alot of kids from far less affluent neighborhoods. What i have read in the papers both nationally/locally is that florida's public schools arent good, if im wrong let me know but that i what i have read. The school at Celebration might not have been ment to be a private school but wasnt supposed to be heavily populated with students that are bused in.

 

[raidermatt]

Sir Raider!!! I must admit that when you first started posting (or at least when I became aware of you) I thought you were a natural for my car. Maybe even as alternate driver.

Sometimes, I have to break out the slide-rule and abacus to figure out which car I'm in... Magic hasn't truly faded, but at times current management does seem to be launching rockets at it...maybe I should leave the car at home and just walk!

 

[Galahad]

Bob,

What you've read about the FL public schools is right.

 

[bd-celebration]

We have heard everyone's opinions about Celebration; unfortunately none of them actually live here. Everone seems to have their own preconceived notions, thoughts and ideas of what it is like to live here. Some have "driven through", "visited the model homes" or even "read the books" and think they know what it is like to live here.

While Celebration is not the "Ward Cleaver" or "Disney" town everyone envisions it to be, I can say from our three years living here that we have no desire to live anywhere else. The people are wonderful, the town is beautiful and we are never bored.

Not everyone likes Celebration, which is just fine by us. We only want people who love the town to move and live here. No town, however planned, can be perfect. We have our fair share of problems, disputes and issues, but would never want to live in a "perfect" town. We will just settle for our piece of Celebration.

 

[Bob O]

BD-celebration, since you live there and know everything first hand what are your opnions on the addition of timeshares and increased hotels in your town???
dscoop- the schools may not have meant to be private but ive never read that they were supposed to have alot of low income kids bused in either which will impact education greatly.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

bd-celebration, STOP!!!! PLEASE!!!

We’ve got a real live Celebrationite posting, but he doesn’t answer the question!!! Either of them!!!

So hang on second. And PLEASE post one more time.

We live here and love it.

I know that’s what you said but I still have to ask, what about the article? What do you think? What about your neighbors? What’s the general feeling?

And second, and most important (because it’s my point, of course ) did you, or did any of your neighbors buy into Celebration because it was affiliated with Disney? Perhaps not the primary reason, but maybe something that tipped the scales. Give us some insight!!!

 

[HorizonsFan]

I just know i wouldnt want my kids from a upper scale neighborhood going to school with alot of kids from far less affluent neighborhoods.

Most public schools, no matter the neighborhood in which they're located are attended by those of all socio-economic levels. There are always parts of a community that are less affluent and those children are entitled to an education.
The only way to keep "upper scale" kids from mingling with "less affluent" kids is to put them in private school. But is that really such a good thing?

 

[Bob O]

Horizons fans-It counts how the public schools are where you live. In my city where the average grade in the public school is a D and the dropout rate is about 50% it matters greatly. And that is why my kids will never step a foot into a public school. But i live in a big city and im sure its better in smaller communities.
dscoop people who live in homes as expensive as they are in celebration would more than likely be willing to pay money to have their kids in better schools and not have to deal with schools that have alot of bused in students.