A question for teachers re: seating charts

[RMulieri]

My daughters first grade teacher moves the seating assignments each week.I have yet to have an issue this year

 

[palavra]

I have teenagers in high school and middle school now.
Both my boys are intelligent and well behaved.
I sub in the elementary in their district.

I see many different ways teachers seat kids but it appears they all follow the good kid with one not so good. I have seen a few times where the good kids all sit together and the not so good all sit together. I have seen the very not so good kids sit off by themselves.

My observations....our kids might be perfect angels at home but even the best behaved child who might be a gifted student can behave totally different in school. My kids did it and I see it all the time in the classes I sub in (I have only 2 teachers who I work for so I know their classes and teaching methods well after years of working for them). We all want to think our children who we believe are gifted would NEVER do anything wrong...sorry to say it is a fact they do. Every parent wants to blame someone elses kid for their child's behavior at times. I think if we are ALL honest we have ALL done this. The good child will come home (and I am talking up to 6th grade even) and say I got in trouble cause Billy was talking and bothering me during class and Mrs. Smith sent both of us to the office. So mom and dad get mad and call teacher or principal or go into school. Teacher says kid did do talking but parents blame kid next to their child for being disruptive. Did it ever occur that your gifted child was doing the talking...probably not because we don't want to believe our children would ever do anything wrong. Those who are slightly ahead in class get bored and act out...talk, bother kid next to them, etc.

At times when good kids at one table and no so good at another I find the not so good kids better behaved. The good kids think they won't get in trouble for doing anything. I sent 4 2nd graders to the office once who were 'good' kids for cheating on a paper. They ALL missed the same problems and ALL had the same wrong answer and ALL sat near each other. Not a coincidence. Teacher was fine with it and said girls and parents sad they did nothing wrong.

Sometimes as parents we need to let the teachers do what they think is best. Think of it as a learning experience for our children. We as adults have people we work with who we don't get necessarily like but we get along with...even parents of our kids friends. Teachers get frustrated when parents whine and complain about every little thing and don't make their kids accountable for their actions. Kids get babied too much and parents think their child can do no wrong. The teachers have a class of 20-30 depending on area and they do their best. If you have an issue volunteer to work in the class for the teacher. It is amazing what you see. Also, take note if you are in their YOUR child will be on best behavior.

I learned fast with my first...even though they might be 'gifted' they are not perfect. They might sit next to the kid for 2-3 weeks. Tell them to do their work and ignore the other kid (know in some cases impossible) but it will do kids good to sit by a wide variety of kids. Do you honestly think in HS you can complain about who your child sits with????

JMHO

Thank you for such a thoughtful and informative post! As a classroom teacher, I assign seating based on what is best for the whole class. I do think individually as much as I can, but every student can't have the optimal seating arrangements all the time. If a student is upset with seating and can explain the reasoning, I will change the arrangement. Likewise, if a parents is unhappy, I will try to rearrange the seating. I do tend to move the seating around every 2-3 weeks.

 

[rigs32]

I was that well-behaved student in 1st/2nd. I would get so frustrated at the expectation that I help the other student(s) or put up with them that *I* got sent to the principal's office. My parents got involved, and the expectations stopped, thankfully. No 5 or 6 yr old (I had also skipped a grade and was 1-2 yrs younger than the trouble students) should be expected to do that.

 

[amym2]

Honestly, I'd be more concerned about the fact that the whole class has the same 19 page seatwork packet

Yikes. That's where she's failing your bright kid.

Kids need to sit near everyone, but have flexible options to move around and away from distractions, but they also need to think. 19 pages of worksheets? And a parent could correct them, which means it's not differentiated, no critical thinking or open-ended learning?

If I was handed that, I'd hand them right back and ask the purpose of wasting kids' time!

Sorry- soapbox- I just did a consultation for a school that wanted to buy electronic worksheets to "keep the gifted and low-performing students equally occupied" Gasp and horror.

Just had to comment- my kids' school uses Accelerated Math, which is individualized but accompanied by very little actual learning. Can you come consult at their school?!

To the OP, as a former teacher, I completely agree that there is no "one right" answer to this. Often teachers experiment with seating and it's difficult to come up with the perfect arrangement. My 3rd grader is that well behaved over achiever also, but he generally can tolerate kids who can be distracting without ever getting distracted himself. It's a skill to learn, to ignore negative behavior, but it's very challenging especially for 1st graders. If it truly is bothering him, absolutely speak up to the teacher, or even better have him talk with her. My DD is currently is seated at a table with just her best friend and herself, and I think that's probably more of a distraction than anything, despite the fact they they are both well behaved over achievers!!

 

[bumbershoot]

I sent 4 2nd graders to the office once who were 'good' kids for cheating on a paper. They ALL missed the same problems and ALL had the same wrong answer and ALL sat near each other. Not a coincidence. Teacher was fine with it and said girls and parents sad they did nothing wrong.

So the kids couldn't have studied together, but got it wrong? In study groups I've been in there's usually a strong one, the one who feels that they have it right. And if they felt that they had it right, and the other girls believed them, the same result certainly could have happened.


As to the other part...I just don't feel that you understand that sometimes kids are telling the truth. As a 23 year old grad student I was put into an xray class with upwards of 40 students. It was two classes put together with a woman who shouldn't have been anywhere near a classroom. She had absolute favorites, and since one of her favorites didn't much like me (that person was also her TA), and because the woman wasn't very professional, she always looked at me nastily and hated when I asked questions.

One day, as I was sitting in the far back of the room, on the floor (as were about 10 others b/c the classroom was too small), people were talking very very loudly. I was not talking; I was looking to the front, waiting for class to start, hating the people in the classroom with me.

She was trying to get order, and said some sentence that I did not hear. People started quieting down, and I asked, quietly, "what did she say?"

And I was kicked out of the class because what she said was "the next person that talks gets kicked out".

I went straight to the vice president of the school, told him what had just happened. He called her once class was over, got her in the room with me, and had her apologize to me and not have that day count towards my absences (professional school, only a few absences allowed per class per quarter or you fail). I was SO glad that HE believed me and understood the catch-22 situation I had been put in by my classmates and by the teacher believing what she wanted to believe.

I only hope you go into every situation being open to the concept that students do not always lie.

 

[azdizzymom]

So the kids couldn't have studied together, but got it wrong? In study groups I've been in there's usually a strong one, the one who feels that they have it right. And if they felt that they had it right, and the other girls believed them, the same result certainly could have happened.


As to the other part...I just don't feel that you understand that sometimes kids are telling the truth. As a 23 year old grad student I was put into an xray class with upwards of 40 students. It was two classes put together with a woman who shouldn't have been anywhere near a classroom. She had absolute favorites, and since one of her favorites didn't much like me (that person was also her TA), and because the woman wasn't very professional, she always looked at me nastily and hated when I asked questions.

One day, as I was sitting in the far back of the room, on the floor (as were about 10 others b/c the classroom was too small), people were talking very very loudly. I was not talking; I was looking to the front, waiting for class to start, hating the people in the classroom with me.

She was trying to get order, and said some sentence that I did not hear. People started quieting down, and I asked, quietly, "what did she say?"

And I was kicked out of the class because what she said was "the next person that talks gets kicked out".

I went straight to the vice president of the school, told him what had just happened. He called her once class was over, got her in the room with me, and had her apologize to me and not have that day count towards my absences (professional school, only a few absences allowed per class per quarter or you fail). I was SO glad that HE believed me and understood the catch-22 situation I had been put in by my classmates and by the teacher believing what she wanted to believe.

I only hope you go into every situation being open to the concept that students do not always lie.

OK I am not happy with your response. I should have clarified I had warned the girls about talking and saw them looking at papers but then it became very clear when all answers the same. The paper was for a grade so I felt it was not fair to those who had done the paper correctly.

Secondly, I know not every child lies. I am a 45 year old mother who can tell when children are lying and when they are not. I can tell when my kids lie to me about things...that is what I told parents to watch for. All our kids lie and if you don't believe kids lie then you have lots of learning to do. I think every teacher can tell you kids lie daily in the classroom.

Example today in 2nd grade. A specials teacher in giving lesson on adjectives...kids to listen to directions (which is her expertise level and what she comes in for) and are not to talk, etc. They were doing Bingo. She told them several times to focus and not talk out...they didn't follow directions so she walked out (whole other story). I was watching class and didn't interrupt as the regular teacher doesn't take part or interfere with this teacher. I saw who was talking and not listening. After the teacher left I addressed the situation...I said Mrs. X said she was not coming back and I think we need to write a note to her. Those of you who listened know who you are and so do I and Mrs. X. Those who didn't listen and follow directions know who you are and so do we. I told them to write what they wanted to her and we would walk notes down (assistant principal was fine with this as I discussed with him since his daughter in there and behaved well). Some kids brought notes up even though I said it was between them and Mrs. X. Let me say that over half of the 'non listeners' said they had done nothing wrong. I did not correct them or say a word.

I have a friend with a 6th grader. He is gifted. I have subbed in his classes and he does cause trouble. She thinks he does no wrong as that is what he says....blames everyone else (her oldest son did at the same age too). She has complained to teachers so much they don't know what to do. Principal is frustrated too. This is the example I was trying to stress ....sometimes parents are oblivious to their kids behavior in school. She thinks teachers and students are out to get her son. We have a great system and great teachers and students but when someone doesn't open their eyes as a parent and believe at times their child isn't perfect then their is a problem.

Yes, kids don't lie all the time and I NEVER said they did. I can tell when they do and when they don't at times and if I am not sure I believe the kids. If there was a disagreement and I didn't see I will say why don't we both say sorry at same time and stress getting along, etc. BUT if one kid who is sick goes to nurse and comes back with ice for a sore throat and all of a sudden 5 other kids have sore throats...I won't send them because I know they were fine until their friend came back with ice.

My kids tell the truth most of the time just like most kids but when they lie it is quite apparent. So I do believe kids tell the truth but sometimes when they get in trouble at school they will manipulate the truth and words so they won't get in trouble at home. This is a no brainer in most situations with most kids...they don't want to get in trouble and get grounded or banned from video games, etc and will lie.

If I wasn't clear on how I worded the cheating situation I apologize but kids don't need to be cheating in 2nd grade and it was clear to myself and aide in classroom what happened. Also, I clearly understand the difference between the truth and lies and when kids are telling each. I also don't think you can compare being a 23 year old grad student to a 2nd grader or elementary school student.

 

[azdizzymom]

Somehow my previous post double posted but I want to direct this to bumbershoot also on lying children.

Last year my son was a freshman. He had never had any major behavioral issues which required him to be sent to principal. Notice I said major...like every child he did get in classroom trouble maybe once a year but nothing the teacher didn't handle from preschool Montessori thru 8th grade.

Within the first week of HS he came out to car and said he got kicked out of a certain class. This teacher is a friend of mine from years back but we hadn't talked in several years. I asked him what happened and he said she doesn't like boys and kicked 5 out for talking. I shoot off an email to assistant principal asking him to stress to my son importance of behaving in class and leave it at that. Fast forward a month and he gets kicked out again....ask why and same type of explanation...claims he didn't do anything that other kids weren't doing. So I email teacher and just ask her to explain situation. She gives a totally different story. I talk to my son about and after prodding and asking the RIGHT QUESTIONS AND DIRECT ONES get the same story as teacher. So he hadn't been truthful...gave bits and pieces of the truth and twisted rest around so he didn't appear as bad. He was punished at home. I warned and assistant principal also did that next time detention. GREAT! So comes the day before Thanksgiving break and he comes out to car...got in trouble and has detention. GREAT because now this has to wait for days and I get really pissed from what he told me he shouldn't have gotten in trouble. I email teacher and ask her nicely what happened and to explain to me over the weekend...thankfully she checked her emails and once again her story different. So I ask her if son and I can meet with her...knowing this will accomplish two things. I as a parent have them each explain what happened in front of each other and then see if either story changes. My son was NOT happy and didn't want to do but we did. Before we went his story changed to the same as teachers. Amazing when asked the direct questions again what happens. I have him explain in front of teacher what happened and they agree that is what happened. We discussed as a group what could be changed to make situation better and he suggested a change which she made. He wanted to drop the class but it is a language and for graduation they need 3 years of SAME language and I said no. A few other kids who had gotten in trouble dropped and I wouldn't let him...there is only 1 language teacher per language in our system. I knew he'd have her for 3 years and didn't want to let him get away by dropping class. He has NOT been in trouble in that class since then. On her comments on report card it now states good all round student and he has and A in the class.

See I was one who believed my child telling the truth and almost didn't believe the teacher. I was careful in wording and careful in talking to son and her. I told my son I believed him but we both learned. You need to ask very specific directed questions which as your 6 year old grows you will understand better.

My point is once again that kids do lie...as parents we don't want to believe but we need to remove blinders. We lie as adults too. I know kids are all good and sometimes situations at home aren't good. I believe every child deserves a chance and is good but when they do wrong they need to be accountable and as adults so do we. We can't make excuses for our kids all the time or they will never learn right from wrong.

 

[seashoreCM]

My first reaction is that if my kid is badgered by others then he should upon his requiest or my request separated from said others. Then we ask questions later and fine tune the situation.

He should try to learn to ignore sounds and voices during the times he should concentrate on his own work but if he gets poked in an effort to get him to turn around and answer someone's question, such is the time to separate him.

If my kid is expected to read instructions to disruptive kids or otherwise bestow good influence on disruptive kids, then my kid should get credit for it. Credit that will better his overall grade and/or make up for deficiencies in other areas.

Protecting his work from prying eyes and copying I consider to be a low priority and he would be encouraged not to divert energy from doing the work.

A concept I would like to promote in elementary and junior high school is for kids to raise their hands only when they want to ask questions, not to answer questions.

Family hints: http://www.cockam.com/family.htm

 

[azdizzymom]

Protecting his work from prying eyes and copying I consider to be a low priority and he would be encouraged not to divert energy from doing the work.

A concept I would like to promote in elementary and junior high school is for kids to raise their hands only when they want to ask questions, not to answer questions.

Family hints: http://www.cockam.com/family.htm

Low priority on copying...how is a kid to learn if copying is allowed. It isn't fair to the child the one copied from.

I like the idea of raising hands to ask questions. So many don't and are afraid to!

 

[Mrsdennison]

Depending on the age of the student. I would have them ask the teacher if they can change seats and explain why.

Mrs. D could you please move my seat, because I'm feeling distracted by those around me.

If this doesn't work I would as the parent request the change and explain the reasons.

I teach middle schools. I have a random seating chart to mainly keep best buds from sitting next to one another and prevent talking. I tend to set a barrier of quiet students down two rows. Then I put my more talkative students inbetween so they have no one to talk to.

I did have a student request to be moved. I could tell it was very difficult for him to come and ask me. I felt horrible that I hadn't caught on earlier to his distractions( others). I moved him within minutes of his request.

MrsD

 

[smidgy]

I think it works if you have certain personalities. And it doesn't if you hae different ones.

IMO if you are a leader you ARE a leader. I don't think leadership can be taught. At least, not the calm cool true leadership that, say, my brother has. So I think that statement of the teacher is bogus. To me, putting your son there just makes him a target.

you are SO!! dead on here!!

just because a child is smart doesn't mean he is a "leader".

and, I, too, remember "dumbing down" as I got older, to try to be "cool".

a teacher needs to be aware of the social interactons in the classroom, ...ie, the "cliques" , various groupings, the "stand alones", etc.

esp. as children approach the teen years, aka "middle school". school can be "heck" for the most brilliant student
if they are too concerned about "fitting in".

a child's "personality" needs to be taken into account as well as their intelligence.

well said.

 

[smidgy]

I think the only answer is that there is no one correct answer.

But the model student really needs to be someone with a strong, independent personality and good focus which doesn't always equate with academic giftedness which is a mistake often made by teachers. IMO, personality is a lot more important when sitting kids near each other than academic ability. Some kids aren't bothered by others behavior and some are.

you said it much better than I did.