A question for teachers re: seating charts

[Ashlotte]

I have a question for the elementary teachers out there. I should add a disclaimer here that I am a certified teacher, but have been a SAHM for 7 years, so I would like to hear from people still in the profession.

My question is about seating charts. When I was teaching, the advice given by my mentor teacher was to break kids up by ability and behavior, to make the class balanced. The theory was that two behavior issues next to each other would be a problem, but one behavior problem with a more well-behaved kid would make the behavior issue kid mellow out a bit, thus creating an "average."

Well, now that I am not the teacher trying to split up the kids, but the parent of a high achiever/well-behaved kid, I have a problem with it. At the beginning of the year, the assignments were random, since the teacher didn't know the kids, and my son was in a good situation. The second assignment had him next to a very distracting girl for over a month. I didn't say anything, assuming that the next assignment would be better. Then the next assignment came, and was worse than the previous one.

I just FINALLY said something to the teacher yesterday, and I only said something because she had me correcting their seat work packets for December and it was obvious that he is getting distracted and not getting his work done (he had done two pages out of 19, and the previous month was a similar score. In September and October, he had done almost the whole packet). He also had homework come home over winter break because he hadn't finished in class.

So, my question for the teachers is, do you have a better way? It bothers me that the well-behaved kids are sort of "sacrificed" for the classroom in this way. It bothered me when I was teaching, too, but it was obviously less personal.

His teacher last year took the behavior problem kids and had them sit alone in the corner, where they couldn't distract other kids. At the time I thought that was pretty mean, but now I can kind of see the wisdom in it. Again, though, it's not a perfect solution.

 

[hedgehog2owl]

Not a teacher (child of one though )
My daughter is in the first grade and is this:

high achiever/well-behaved kid

In her class room there are 3 severe behavior problems, with several minor ones.

Since October-3 seating rotations- she'd been placed next to a boy with a disruption problem, and with one of the girls AND she was at the time at a table with ALL THREE of them.

The teacher said that dd was a 'model' student ie always behaved and was quiet respectful and a good listener and it was good for the other children to see it.

After Christmas, she came home and told me they'd switched tables. I thought whew finally. Then she said "oh..but I am still next to xxx" wth?? 4 rotations?? "oh and yyyy is across from me again" I mean, really? Can't my kid have a break? It wouldn't be so bad if this boy didn't constantly harp on dd. Surely the teacher has noticed?

 

[ChrisAlli]

My ds, third grade, just recently asked to be moved because the kids he was sitting with were very talkative and distracting him.

His teacher moved him to a different area.

In first grade his teacher put all the kids with the same work habit together. He was in the back with all the quite kids, less distracting.

 

[Mrs.Malone]

I have no answers but this is an issue close to my heart.

One of my sons is that quiet and well-behaved child who is often seated with the disruptive kid. He HATES it when that happens. Last year (4th grade) it started to take its toll on DS's grades and feelings as DS was seated at a 3-person table with two very disruptive boys. The teacher said that this was good for DS, to show him he's setting a good example and to make him a leader, and for the other boys (for DS to "rub off on them"). But when DS started coming home in tears saying he couldn't concentrate in class at all and couldn't stand another day of the other boys' constant antics, I had to step in and get him moved. Things were much better after that. I did feel bad for whichever kid got moved into that spot!

My sister and I were also the "good kids" in school and we both hated constantly being seated next to the disruptive kids. I remember being in 3rd grade and one time just wanting SO badly to kick the boy who was seated next to me because he just would NOT stop copying my work, tapping me, making fun of my hair, and so on.

Maybe in some cases being seated by the disruptive kids is a good learning experience for the quiet high-achieving low-maintenance kids but in my experience it certainly has been very negative.

 

[allyphoe]

DD's teacher does 2-week rotations, and you never sit with the same kids 2 rotations in a row. I'd think it would be a lot of hassle, but it seems to work well.

 

[Wiloughby1]

Honestly, I'd be more concerned about the fact that the whole class has the same 19 page seatwork packet

Yikes. That's where she's failing your bright kid.

Kids need to sit near everyone, but have flexible options to move around and away from distractions, but they also need to think. 19 pages of worksheets? And a parent could correct them, which means it's not differentiated, no critical thinking or open-ended learning?

If I was handed that, I'd hand them right back and ask the purpose of wasting kids' time!

Sorry- soapbox- I just did a consultation for a school that wanted to buy electronic worksheets to "keep the gifted and low-performing students equally occupied" Gasp and horror.

 

[bumbershoot]

I think it works if you have certain personalities. And it doesn't if you hae different ones.

My brother was smart, solid in his Being even as a baby, and didn't let others bother him. His friends' parents LOVED him because he could stop their sons from being ridiculous. His friends followed his example and never minded it.

So if he sat next to people who were acting up, as long as they weren't as solid in THEIR personalities as he was, he would generally have a good influence.

I, on the other hand, would have just ended up bullied and peer-pressured. I'm easily distracted, and as a kid desperately wanted to be "cool", so not only did I "lose" my brains once I seriously noticed boys, but I would *never* have told someone to stop acting up, because it wouldn't have been "cool". Putting disruptive kids next to me, no matter how quiet and nice I was, wouldn't have helped anything and would have destroyed my work.


"The teacher said that this was good for DS, to show him he's setting a good example and to make him a leader"

IMO if you are a leader you ARE a leader. I don't think leadership can be taught. At least, not the calm cool true leadership that, say, my brother has. So I think that statement of the teacher is bogus. To me, putting your son there just makes him a target.

 

[Ashlotte]

Honestly, I'd be more concerned about the fact that the whole class has the same 19 page seatwork packet

Yikes. That's where she's failing your bright kid.

Kids need to sit near everyone, but have flexible options to move around and away from distractions, but they also need to think. 19 pages of worksheets? And a parent could correct them, which means it's not differentiated, no critical thinking or open-ended learning?

If I was handed that, I'd hand them right back and ask the purpose of wasting kids' time!

Sorry- soapbox- I just did a consultation for a school that wanted to buy electronic worksheets to "keep the gifted and low-performing students equally occupied" Gasp and horror.

I totally, 100% agree. The packet is for when they are done with their other work, but it is silly busy work. They also don't differentiate for math at all. At least he gets special challenge spelling words and switches for reading. The seating chart is just the tip of the iceberg with my frustrations with his school.

 

[Ashlotte]

I think it works if you have certain personalities. And it doesn't if you hae different ones.

You nailed it. It doesn't work for him and never has. He is the kind of kid that will always initially behave, but eventually, if he sees enough kids not behaving that have ZERO consequences (that is the key), he will eventually join in. So, in a class of kids that talk nonstop (the teacher has no management skills at all), eventually he'll join in and chat the day away, too.

 

[SmallWorld71]

As the parent of two academically blessed children and one with a learning disability as well as an elementary school teacher of children with special needs/ behavior problems and a former classroom teacher, I think the only answer is that there is no one correct answer.

Sometimes sitting a child with a problem near someone without one, is greatly beneficial for both students. One learns appropriate behavior and the other learns kindness, patience, tolerance etc... But the model student really needs to be someone with a strong, independent personality and good focus which doesn't always equate with academic giftedness which is a mistake often made by teachers. IMO, personality is a lot more important when sitting kids near each other than academic ability. Some kids aren't bothered by others behavior and some are.

Another thing to take into consideration is the climate and structure of the classroom. When I taught first grade, the children spent much more time working at tables, as a group on the rug etc... than they did at their desk, so seating arrangements weren't that important. And, if there was a distraction, all the students knew they had the option of moving to a table or somewhere quieter. (This option was used a lot when I had a "enthusiastic" group.) It was very rare that a child needed to have their desk away from his classmates. I know not all classes are run this way, though.

Anyway, bottom line is: the teacher needs to take everyone's needs into consideration when making decisions. As a parent, however, your child is your main consideration. If your child is really bothered by the student near them, you could use this opportunity to help them learn that not everyone is as fortunate as them and some kids need help with their behavior. If they are still having a hard time, just kindly ask if they can be moved.

 

[graygables]

We homeschool, so don't have these issues and I am a former high school teacher.

The very best classroom I was ever in was my 6th grade. We had assigned seating (desks in groups of 2 or 4), but we were allowed to leave our desks to go to "quiet areas" which included a table next to the teacher, a couple of beanbag chairs, a carpeted area behind a bookcase, etc. but ONLY if we were on the approved list. You earned your way onto the list by a mix of behavior and grades. All you had to do was look around, make sure there was an opening, raise your hand and the teacher would nod to you. You could then make your way to your chosen spot. That was your spot until the next break in the day, then you returned to your desk. The only problem was if all the spots were filled, but if it was a serious enough distraction, the teacher would let us go to the library. If the DISTRACTOR was enough of a problem, HE would be sent to the hall to sit on the floor and do his work with the teacher parking his chair by the open door. It was very free-thinking at the time, but also very orderly and effective. I did many a spelling list on a beanbag chair...

 

[bushdianee]

I am a first grade teacher and I try to seat my "problem" students in the back of the rows or groups to cut down on the distractions. I do try to put well behaved students near them but only if I think it won't bother them. I also make it clear to the "role model" student that if they are being bothered to let me know quietly and they will be moved. It has helped calm some kids down. If a student gets too disruptive they get their desk moved a few feet away from the rest for the rest of the day. Most of the time this works especially if we are doing group activities and that student has to be my partner while the others are with friends.

 

[mickeyboat]

All I can say is I feel your pain. DD11 is having a really tough time in her classroom this year - and no she is not over-reacting. I have encouraged her to talk to her teacher about it to work out some solution that works for her. Things seem to have improved, but I am keeping a close eye on the situation.

 

[StitchBuddy]

My DD has also been in this situation. But, I am happy to report that she is in middle school now and since she takes advanced classes there aren't near as many "problem students" in her class. However, there are still a few.

 

[PixieTl]

I always ran into that problem when making seating charts... but I taught Jr. High.. I tried to separate out the disrupters and rotate my good kids so they wouldn't be overloaded by the others.. It was pretty much the only way I could work around an unfair situation!
Course I broke several rules... the really fun kids got to sit all by themselves and couldn't work with anyone, at the table by my desk!

 

[robinsegg]

In 5th grade, I was placed next too and across from (literally, our desks were pushed together) girls who were problems. The girls pinched and kicked me *in the classroom* and I *came home with bruises*. The rule at my house was "if you get in trouble at school, you'll be spanked when you get home". My mom finally went to the teacher and asked that I be moved. The teacher said "Oh no, Mrs. F., we don't do that!" My mom turned and told me that next time the girls hurt me I would have to hit them until they fell down or I would be spanked when I got home. The teacher then moved my desk, knowing I would follow my parents' directions.

Yes, over 20 years later that incident still effects me, because I had never been accepted by my peers and never defended by an adult. Make sure your child knows you believe him and feels you're "in his corner" as long as it seems he's in the right.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

I'm currently a teacher, although my situation is slightly different. I teach a self contained room for kids with MR. I have the same nine kids all day. I have several good, quiet kids. I also have several highly disruptive kids. I change my seating arrangement as needed, and a lot of thought goes into it. I just did this last night, was there pretty late rearranging everything. I have had two disruptive kids at the same desk (I have double desks), but one of the kids couldn't handle it and it made it worse.

I have had to sit disruptive kids next to quiet ones just because if they're next to eachother they will escalate each other. I do the same thing with my "good" kids. Even the good kids will talk and bother eachother. So for instance, I try to make sure that none of my older girls are near each other or they will talk to each other. There's a lot of juggling that goes on when placing a child in a seating chart.

That being said, if a parent called me and said that a student was having issues with their seatmate, I would do everything I could to switch it up if the request were reasonable. However, at the end of the day, the only one responsible for getting their work done is that student. I never let my students use the excuse that somebody is being disruptive, that would not fly in my classroom. 2 pages out of 19 when given a month would not be okay. Even if the packet is "silly, busy work" (and yes, I agree with you that it does not seem like bst practice from what you have described), at the end of the day that is still the assignment they have to do. So while it sounds like your child may benefit from a change in seating, I think it's also important to emphasize that he cannot blame his lack of work on anybody but himself.

ETA: I do feel your pain. When I was in 9th grade my Spanish teacher sat me next to two boys who were very talkative, and flat out told me that she was hoping that I would be a positive influence. She did give me a chance to voice any concerns. At the time I was fine with it, but they ended up threatening my life on two separate occasions, to the point that I was pulled out of school for a day. So I can see it both ways. Just be calm when you talk to the teacher, that goes a long way.

 

[WantToGoNow]

My dd7 is in 1st grade this year and it seems her teacher uses a similar method. My dd is always telling me the bad kids are put next to her as well as those that aren't performing as well academically. I was told at her conference that she is asked to "read directions" to the other kids at her table because they aren't able to do so and also to help some of the other kids in the class. My dd feels important being asked to do these things and most of the time her behavior isn't affected - although her "clothespin" doesn't always move up the behavior charge as much as I would like.

 

[cvjw]

My older DS (14 now), was put into the EIP classroom every year that he was in elementary school. He was a perfect student, and was put into the classroom with students who needed extra learning because he would be a good influence on them - that is what his 3rd grade teacher told me. It used to really upset me, but he is the strong, smart, independent type, and he took it all in stride. The plus side of this classroom setup is that the class sizes were ridiculously small - so it was a trade-off. It did not negatively influence his learning. He had all honors classes in middle school, and now attends a math, science and technology magnet high school.

 

[azdizzymom]

I have teenagers in high school and middle school now.
Both my boys are intelligent and well behaved.
I sub in the elementary in their district.

I see many different ways teachers seat kids but it appears they all follow the good kid with one not so good. I have seen a few times where the good kids all sit together and the not so good all sit together. I have seen the very not so good kids sit off by themselves.

My observations....our kids might be perfect angels at home but even the best behaved child who might be a gifted student can behave totally different in school. My kids did it and I see it all the time in the classes I sub in (I have only 2 teachers who I work for so I know their classes and teaching methods well after years of working for them). We all want to think our children who we believe are gifted would NEVER do anything wrong...sorry to say it is a fact they do. Every parent wants to blame someone elses kid for their child's behavior at times. I think if we are ALL honest we have ALL done this. The good child will come home (and I am talking up to 6th grade even) and say I got in trouble cause Billy was talking and bothering me during class and Mrs. Smith sent both of us to the office. So mom and dad get mad and call teacher or principal or go into school. Teacher says kid did do talking but parents blame kid next to their child for being disruptive. Did it ever occur that your gifted child was doing the talking...probably not because we don't want to believe our children would ever do anything wrong. Those who are slightly ahead in class get bored and act out...talk, bother kid next to them, etc.

At times when good kids at one table and no so good at another I find the not so good kids better behaved. The good kids think they won't get in trouble for doing anything. I sent 4 2nd graders to the office once who were 'good' kids for cheating on a paper. They ALL missed the same problems and ALL had the same wrong answer and ALL sat near each other. Not a coincidence. Teacher was fine with it and said girls and parents sad they did nothing wrong.

Sometimes as parents we need to let the teachers do what they think is best. Think of it as a learning experience for our children. We as adults have people we work with who we don't get necessarily like but we get along with...even parents of our kids friends. Teachers get frustrated when parents whine and complain about every little thing and don't make their kids accountable for their actions. Kids get babied too much and parents think their child can do no wrong. The teachers have a class of 20-30 depending on area and they do their best. If you have an issue volunteer to work in the class for the teacher. It is amazing what you see. Also, take note if you are in their YOUR child will be on best behavior.

I learned fast with my first...even though they might be 'gifted' they are not perfect. They might sit next to the kid for 2-3 weeks. Tell them to do their work and ignore the other kid (know in some cases impossible) but it will do kids good to sit by a wide variety of kids. Do you honestly think in HS you can complain about who your child sits with????

JMHO