Advice needed - teenage son

[Nancyg56]

However, many farms do have some manual labor that is done in teams, and that was more what I had in mind, of course assuming that if he wasn't motivated andn pulling his weight, he would quickly be shown the door.

FWIW, I only suggested it because we use this tactic in my own family. There are three livestock farms in my extended family, and a summer spent on one of them doing scutwork for Uncle X has more than once done wonders for an attitude issue.

I see what you are saying . I think that if someone was placed on a team doing manual labor there would be very little chance of getting into mischief.
My youngest was my DH "hand" when we had cows and he was so darn tired at the end of the day he could not have gotten into trouble even if he had been inclined This is also a god way to demonstrate what life is like without a good education and if there are "issues" in your background. Very few businesses will take a chance if someone has a record and the young man in the OP is heading that way.

Thanks everyone for your replies - it is truly apprecaited and I have gotten some feedback I probably needed to hear and some I will learn from.



I called our old therapist yesterday to get us all back in for some family therapy. I think that will help him have someone to talk to that listens to him besides us. I think he is depressed and has been for many months. He has always been a difficult personality to deal with - since pregnancy actually. Difficult pregancy, difficult infancy, difficult toddlerhood etc..

We are going to stick to our guns with him. Rules to follow and if they aren't followed then he deals with the consequences. I hope it all sinks in. He is aware he is making bad decisions but I think he is having difficult navigating the waters on how to stop. He is impulsive and that doesn't help him at all.

Should I have let my older son call the cops on him yesterday? I still say no. I say no because I know their dynamic. My older son just wants his life to be eaiser without his brother around. He thinks he is a pain in the ****. My older son has done his fair share of stupid things such as taking our car without permission before he turned 16 and smashing it. He has no room to talk about what goes on with his brother and he is trying to parent his brother which is not his job and we've told him so.

We have never made our oldest son responsbile for his little brother just like we've never made our daughter responsible for her brothers either. We are a family though and we tackle things together and maybe my "family is family no matter what" motto needs to be revised a bit. I've always told my kids - you don't have to like each other but you need to love each other and be able to count on each other when things get tough.

More supervision in the summer is a very difficult one - he needs a job, he needs to work hard and come home tired. We have to work on that one.
.

Wow. Your oldest was in trouble so he needs to tolerate the antics of his younger brother?

He needs supervision so you want an employer to babysit him and tire him out?

He has always been difficult and now you are surprised that he is continuing to push boundaries?

Okay. FWIW- my kids never really got into trouble, not like your son. If any one of my children had stolen a family vehicle the police would have been called....by that kid. I doubt that after I got done you could have scraped up what remained of him with a shovel. Not really, but the consequences would have been incredibly dramatic, and an arrest would have been preferable.

You cannot begin at 16, lay down the law and then not have a darn good plan if your rules are broken. And you have to deal with the consequences. If you can not supervise him, who will? If he does not follow your new rules, who will enforce the consequences? If you are not willing to do this, not a thing you try will work because it will never be convenient. I always knew that any punishment I handed to my children would be mine as well. If I took a vehicle away from my boy, and I had to do that once, I needed to get my sorry self out of bed and out the door at 4 AM to get him to work, and then pick him up later that day. If I kept one home from a day trip, I had to make arrangements for someone to be there, and many times it was me.

Bottom line is that a teen who is already having issues controlling impulsive behavior to teh point that he is destructive and is stealing needs way more time then he is getting if you want to turn this behavior around. And honestly, if you do not invest it now, you and your family will be paying for a long time. Even if you decide in a few years that you have had enough, you will never be able to turn away completely, he is your son.

 

[SMD]

OP, I sympathize, but you have made quote a few contradictory statements, it seems like you're in denial here.

We took all the keys out of our 3 dirtbikes so he can't ride them and today he went to take his sisters little 50cc dirtbike and go over a friends. My oldest son (18) took the key away and my 16yr old kicked and dented his older brothers car. My oldest son wanted me to call the cops on his little brother bcuz he is sick of him. I didn't because it's going to cost me, not my 16yr old, financially speaking. I can't afford that.

We have tried counseling - as a family several times. He never wanted to be there. I think he probably could benefit from some more. I just have to get him there.

I do not want to enable him - I don't want him to end up a loser and not able to hold a job, a drunk, a druggie or anything else. I want him to be a productive member of society and not in and out of jail.

We've had a couple heart to hearts this past week and I thought I might have made some impact. Guess not. He is impulsive and is making bad decisions.

If he gets into trouble with the police again, he is going to juvie. That may or may not be the best thing for him. He could come out worse than when he went in. Just like adults who are jailed - they don't all rehabilitate.

You're already enabling him. You're not rehabilitating him, quite the opposite.

It wasn't an option for him to go to juvie or get community service. The judge said that he gets a 1x ticket on the good bus. If he does anything in the next 6 months then his punishment will be stiffer.

Yes, I have covered his butt to a point, but I am not doing that anymore. Whatever trouble he gets into he will have to pay the consequences for. I am not going to bail him out of jail or pay any fines for him. I wish the judge would've given him community service. I wish he would have done more than slap his hand but I don't control what punishment he dishes out.

You didn't call the police when the rims went missing to document it or let them investigate who stole them. You didn't call the police when he dented his brother's car. When does the not covering and consequences for his actions start?

I called our old therapist yesterday to get us all back in for some family therapy. I think that will help him have someone to talk to that listens to him besides us. I think he is depressed and has been for many months. He has always been a difficult personality to deal with - since pregnancy actually. Difficult pregancy, difficult infancy, difficult toddlerhood etc..

Should I have let my older son call the cops on him yesterday? I still say no. I say no because I know their dynamic. My older son just wants his life to be eaiser without his brother around. He thinks he is a pain in the ****. My older son has done his fair share of stupid things such as taking our car without permission before he turned 16 and smashing it. He has no room to talk about what goes on with his brother and he is trying to parent his brother which is not his job and we've told him so.

We have never made our oldest son responsbile for his little brother just like we've never made our daughter responsible for her brothers either.

Your other kids aren't responsible for their brother, but you're all going to family counseling to fix his problems? Ask them if that makes them feel responsible.

I, personally, feel that your older son and younger daughter need to be much more protected than they currently are. Your son had every right to call the police and he should have been allowed to do so. I would say that if you would call the police if someone else did it, your brother gets no special consideration and you call when he does it too. Honestly, and I know you do not mean to do this, but it sounds like right now your other kids are paying the price for you bailing out your son.

Personally, I think you should have left his truck the 20 days and let the police sell it (per MI abandoned vehicle laws) and handed over fines for penalties in the meantime to your son.

It is too late on the truck--but in the future, whatever trouble he causes himself, let him deal with it. Don't get angry, jut shrug and say "oh, that's rough. I hope you can manage" and let HIM manage. If he has a court hearing and you feel he will get a "slap on the wrist" contact the court ahead of time to let them know of his past and ask them NOT to take this lightly. Tell them you hope he can see real consequences while he is still under age and hopefully it will have an effect. Etc.

Wow. Your oldest was in trouble so he needs to tolerate the antics of his younger brother?

He needs supervision so you want an employer to babysit him and tire him out?

Bottom line is that a teen who is already having issues controlling impulsive behavior to teh point that he is destructive and is stealing needs way more time then he is getting if you want to turn this behavior around. And honestly, if you do not invest it now, you and your family will be paying for a long time. Even if you decide in a few years that you have had enough, you will never be able to turn away completely, he is your son.

I feel for the older son too. I hope he realizes where his family's priorities lie, and takes his dent car, leaves and doesn't look back.

 

[cheer25mom]

I have not read all the responses, but here is my take:

1. He needs a JOB when he gets home at noon. A real one with real responsibility.

2. Don't bail him out again or pay to get anything that belongs to him out of hock. If he gets locked up, leave him. Let him learn from his mistakes. I know it is hard when it is your "baby" but it will be the best thing that ever happened to him. One night in juvenille detention was all it took for my sister. She knew mom and dad COULD have gotten her out but chose to leave her there.

 

[mousefanmichelle]

OP, I sympathize, but you have made quote a few contradictory statements, it seems like you're in denial here.





You're already enabling him. You're not rehabilitating him, quite the opposite.



You didn't call the police when the rims went missing to document it or let them investigate who stole them. You didn't call the police when he dented his brother's car. When does the not covering and consequences for his actions start?

I never said I didnt' call the police when we realized the rims were missing. We did report it. He knows about it. I don't know if he stole them - I think it could be a possibility, but I don't know. The police can figure that out. I didn't call the police when he dented his brothers car because 1. I know the squabbles the boys have - I saw the car and the dent that my oldest son made out to be huge was barely existant. He over exaggerated, like he does. 2. I don't feel that a arguement between brothers 18 & 16 warrents a call to the police. My dh told my oldest he could do what he wanted, if he wanted to call the police he could. He did not.


Your other kids aren't responsible for their brother, but you're all going to family counseling to fix his problems? Ask them if that makes them feel responsible.

My family could benefit from counseling just to deal with life. If my oldest doesn't want to participate he doesn't have to. If my daughter doesn't want to, she doesn't have to.




I feel for the older son too. I hope he realizes where his family's priorities lie, and takes his dent car, leaves and doesn't look back.

Your doing an awful lot of assuming. I asked for advice and you've given it. Thank you.

 

[kellyg403]

Oh my gosh, I LOVE this approach! Instead of saying, "Hey, I'm washing my hands of you," you're showing her that, "Hey, you're worth my time and effort and I'm going to stick with you and get you graduated." You're modeling consistency and commitment -- not just lecturing her. Love it!

To piggyback on that: Sometimes you just have to change approaches mid-stream when what you're doing isn't working. If nothing else, it gets the kid's attention!

Thank you! I had many friends and relatives tell me I was wasting my time or I was bordering on abuse because I was her shadow. She couldn't control herself so I had to.

But, our lives were so negative and there was absolutely NOTHING positive about our relationship. After awhile she would talk to me sometimes about things, laugh with me about some joke. Sleeping on her floor and getting her alone with nowhere to run was positive.

Kelly

 

[NHdisneylover]

OP--it is really, really hard when you have a child who is struggling and acting out to step back and see things clearly. It is normal to both desperately want help and also desperately want to believe that everything is mostly okay and that you are doing and have been doing all the "right" things.

One of the hardest things to do is really stop and look objectively and see your child's actions for what they really are AND see how your actions and behaviours (which may be GREAT things to do with other teens or for most kids etc) are affecting the situation and very possibly making it worse. It is scary, hard, frustrating work and I have all kinds of sympathy for you and for anyone else going through that.

That said, I keep seeing contradictions in your posts. In one post you say these issues only started this fall when he got his DL. Then later you say he has ALWAYS been difficult. And you say you have tried therapy several times. That seems like a LOT since only fall--so my guess is there have been ongoing problems for a lot longer than a few months. Maybe not the specific stealing and lying--but big enough problems that you think of him as having been difficult from the beginning and have tried therapy before.

I urge you to step back and look at the big and long term picture and try to figure out what underlying motivations or triggers or behaviours you see over the long term. This will help you.


I am going to disagree with the "get him a job" advice. If he steals, lies, throws "tantrums" (damaging property when angry), he will not be a good employ and no employer should have to become an unwitting babysitter for your out of control son. I don't think that is fair to expect out of an employer.

On the other hand--you claim the 18 year old tried to parent and should not, but then you leave the two home alone for hours on end with no other supervision or parenting when your 16 year old CLEARLY is in need of parenting during those hours. I agree that your 18 year old should not be the one to do that--but I also do not think he should be left to deal with a stealing, lying tantrum throwing brother day after day with no adult help.

In your shoes, you may need to have you or your spouse take time off to be there to parent your 16 year old every afternoon. It would stink to have to give up income--but it may be necessary if you REALLY want to help your sonS. OR, perhaps you can hire someone who is willing to "babysit" the 16 year old in the afternoons. If that person is willing to monitor your son as he does yard work, etc to pay back whatever fines he owes you, even better.
Or come up with some other solution that does not fob your son of on someone else who is not expecting to be dealing with a troubled teen and does not leave your other children in the position of "being in DS16's self created problems together with him"

 

[Tiger926]

OP--it is really, really hard when you have a child who is struggling and acting out to step back and see things clearly. It is normal to both desperately want help and also desperately want to believe that everything is mostly okay and that you are doing and have been doing all the "right" things.

One of the hardest things to do is really stop and look objectively and see your child's actions for what they really are AND see how your actions and behaviours (which may be GREAT things to do with other teens or for most kids etc) are affecting the situation and very possibly making it worse. It is scary, hard, frustrating work and I have all kinds of sympathy for you and for anyone else going through that.

That said, I keep seeing contradictions in your posts. In one post you say these issues only started this fall when he got his DL. Then later you say he has ALWAYS been difficult. And you say you have tried therapy several times. That seems like a LOT since only fall--so my guess is there have been ongoing problems for a lot longer than a few months. Maybe not the specific stealing and lying--but big enough problems that you think of him as having been difficult from the beginning and have tried therapy before.

I urge you to step back and look at the big and long term picture and try to figure out what underlying motivations or triggers or behaviours you see over the long term. This will help you.

I am going to disagree with the "get him a job" advice. If he steals, lies, throws "tantrums" (damaging property when angry), he will not be a good employ and no employer should have to become an unwitting babysitter for your out of control son. I don't think that is fair to expect out of an employer.

On the other hand--you claim the 18 year old tried to parent and should not, but then you leave the two home alone for hours on end with no other supervision or parenting when your 16 year old CLEARLY is in need of parenting during those hours. I agree that your 18 year old should not be the one to do that--but I also do not think he should be left to deal with a stealing, lying tantrum throwing brother day after day with no adult help.

In your shoes, you may need to have you or your spouse take time off to be there to parent your 16 year old every afternoon. It would stink to have to give up income--but it may be necessary if you REALLY want to help your sonS. OR, perhaps you can hire someone who is willing to "babysit" the 16 year old in the afternoons. If that person is willing to monitor your son as he does yard work, etc to pay back whatever fines he owes you, even better.
Or come up with some other solution that does not fob your son of on someone else who is not expecting to be dealing with a troubled teen and does not leave your other children in the position of "being in DS16's self created problems together with him"

Fabulous post!

I saw contradictions too, and as you said, it is hard sometimes when we are living that situation day in and day out...

OP is in a tough spot, as are the other family members, especially her older son. It is not his job to babysit his brother, and although OP may have not asked him to officially do this, it happens that way with troubled kids as they wreck and steal all of the time, so you have no choice but to be on them or risk problems with your own stuff. Not to mention that their attitudes are usually pretty foul too.

Counselling may be a first step, but I also want the OP to see a medical doc, as I am thinking there are other issues going on. If her son has always been difficult (good for her to admit this and that is why I asked in my first post), he is probably self-medicating with drugs or alcohol. I would encourage again for him to be checked for any emotional, mental or learning issues. Hard to deal with something when you don't know what you are dealing with.

I wish OP and her family strength in dealing with this difficult situation.

Tiger

Sent from my iPhone using DISBoards

 

[beaucoup]

drug test would at least rule that problem out. or not. It needs to be done.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Oh yes, I 100% agree with Tiger that a full check up at the doctor is in order (including a drug test). OP, I think it would be smart to call adn speak directly with the doctor when making the appointment and share your concerns and what is going on so the doctor knows the score when you arrive. You can (should) also ask for drug testing to be done that day.

Then, don't mention the appointment to your son until that day. Just pick him up from school and go. Don't give him time to try to get drugs out of his system, basically.

I'm not sure it IS drugs---having seen first hand a kid break down when they had been holding it together and masking underlying issues so well for years and then finally simply could not keep doing so. I do know kid's can "snap" and things can start suddenly without drugs--but in all honesty drugs are a VERY strong possibility. OP--you say you know he is not using at home; I do not see how you could possibly know this given that no adult is home for many, many hours per week when he is there.


I'll be blunt. You now say you think he has been depressed "for months" Yet you have basically done nothing about this? You continued to leave him home alone for hours daily and reacted to any attention grabbing behaviors by taking away nearly every "fun" thing he has but never sought HELP for him? I do not understand this as a parent.

If i had to guess, having not been given any help in dealing with his depression, he is now self medicating and the stealing and lying are stemming from his need to pay for that and you will now be trying to help him with both an addiction and depression. I really, really hope I am wrong though.

 

[Pigeon]

I am going to disagree with the "get him a job" advice. If he steals, lies, throws "tantrums" (damaging property when angry), he will not be a good employ and no employer should have to become an unwitting babysitter for your out of control son. I don't think that is fair to expect out of an employer.

Many teens can be completely different people for strangers. They save the ugly for family, particularly for mom.

It may well be that this kid will behave reasonably for an employer. If he doesn't, it might be illuminating for him to have his little behind fired by said employer.

 

[kellyg403]

Many teens can be completely different people for strangers. They save the ugly for family, particularly for mom.

It may well be that this kid will behave reasonably for an employer. If he doesn't, it might be illuminating for him to have his little behind fired by said employer.

I agree he should get a job. The only drawback, depending on 'punishment' at home, like grounding it kinda gives the kid an out.

A long time ago, I had a teenager at my work whose mom had her on a tight lease. I did not ask questions, I was the boss not the mom. A few times the girl came to work, fully dressed in work clothes and would look at the schedule saying 'darn I don't even have to work today' and off she would go with her friends for the day and then show up at the appointed time to be picked up by mom.

Until, of course, the day mom asked me where her daughter was because she had arrived early.

If a teen wants to do something, is not real good with impulse control and is stuck in the mindset that friends are their life, they will find a way.

Kelly

 

[NHdisneylover]

Many teens can be completely different people for strangers. They save the ugly for family, particularly for mom.

It may well be that this kid will behave reasonably for an employer. If he doesn't, it might be illuminating for him to have his little behind fired by said employer.

True. IF he is not getting into any trouble with others--ONLY at home, then yes a job makes sense.

Half of the OPs posts sound like that might be the case but then the other half seem like the kids is much further out of control than that. And if the other half are reality then I think the boy needs an authority figure in charge, a parent or a babysitter or a camp that it expecting a difficult teen, not to be pawned off on an unsuspecting employer.

 

[Nancyg56]

I think that a job is a great idea but it is not a substitute for parenting. In this case, it sounds like the parents are not as involved as they might be and consider a job to be the answer to what is really a babysitting issue.

It is impossible to correct problems that have been long in the making by looking for an easy way out of the problem. This parent says that the boy has been suffering from depression for quite some time, has been disruptive as well as destructive at home, is left with an older sibling who is "not responsible" for him, and the parents also wonder if he is stealing. The mom says increased supervision is not going to happen.

Now I am not a profession anything, but I am a parent so I have an idea how much work teens are. Even teens who are supervised and have never been in trouble need increased supervision and guidance. Teens who are not disciplined, have issues with depression, who have no boundaries and whose parents ignored warning signs for a period of time, need more than a job.

I am not suggesting that the OP abdicated responsibility, but I will say that she is looking for others to help manage what really is her own family problem. Before this boy is ready for employment, Mom and Dad need to make sure he is in good health, that he understands the consequences if he "misbehaves" at the job, and they also need to be ready to increase their own supervision. I think that they know he needs consequences and do not want to be the bad guys, so if he acts out at work the employer will be the one to take action. The problem is that he may not and then the boy will just be going from one job to another until no one will hire him.

 

[njmom47]

We had issues with dd#1. She was enrolled in a serious after-school program where they picked her up and drove her to the place. Is there anything through the school like that? (Our program was year-round ). It was from 2-7. She had therapy (individual and group, where the kids would call each other out on things...I liked that as peers can be soooo relentless!) and life lesson classes. They were given responsibilites (cooking dinner, setting the table, cleaning up afterwards,etc).
That program was a godsend at the time.
I did find that letting her suffer the consequences made somewhat of an impact on her.

ETA After reading the whole thread, I wanted to comment on letting the police get called to the house. Dd#2 has called the police on her sister more than a few times, as well as ds and dh (when she was going crazy on me). There was a record of how many times they had been to our house so maybe that is why things went the way they did for our family.

 

[Colleen27]

Many teens can be completely different people for strangers. They save the ugly for family, particularly for mom.

It may well be that this kid will behave reasonably for an employer. If he doesn't, it might be illuminating for him to have his little behind fired by said employer.

And sometimes, teens do misbehave for no deeper reason than they have too much time on their hands with no constructive way to fill it. They pull stupid pranks and do dangerous things like racing their cars.They experiment with drinking because they're bored and they can (a common problem in our area and probably most rural communities - the bonfire/kegger is practically high school tradition). Sometimes they even steal, not because they need to pay for an addiction but because they don't have gas money or want to go to the movies with their friends but didn't have the foresight to earn/save a little cash for that expense. For a kid with a limit-pushing nature in the teen stage when impulse control and self-direction are weak points, it is easy to find trouble without it being a reflection of any serious or lifelong problem. And for those kids a job is an answer - it fills some of their time in a constructive way and gives them the money to cover their own expenses.

 

[NaLisa]

We had issues with dd#1. She was enrolled in a serious after-school program where they picked her up and drove her to the place. Is there anything through the school like that? (Our program was year-round ). It was from 2-7. She had therapy (individual and group, where the kids would call each other out on things...I liked that as peers can be soooo relentless!) and life lesson classes. They were given responsibilites (cooking dinner, setting the table, cleaning up afterwards,etc).
That program was a godsend at the time.
I did find that letting her suffer the consequences made somewhat of an impact on her.

What a great program! Wish more like this were available. So worth it in the long run to help troubled teens get back on the right path.

 

[NHdisneylover]

We had issues with dd#1. She was enrolled in a serious after-school program where they picked her up and drove her to the place. Is there anything through the school like that? (Our program was year-round ). It was from 2-7. She had therapy (individual and group, where the kids would call each other out on things...I liked that as peers can be soooo relentless!) and life lesson classes. They were given responsibilites (cooking dinner, setting the table, cleaning up afterwards,etc).
That program was a godsend at the time.
I did find that letting her suffer the consequences made somewhat of an impact on her.

That sounds like a really fantastic program! I have never heard of one like tahtnfor teens. I hope this catches on, it could be a real help to many parents and teens.

 

[njmom47]

That sounds like a really fantastic program! I have never heard of one like tahtnfor teens. I hope this catches on, it could be a real help to many parents and teens.

I am trying not to cry at work as I read the whole thread, remembering what we have gone through with dd#1.
Maybe you could Google "partial care for teens programs" or contact Social Services in your area?

This program is through a local behavioral program network.
http://www.preferredbehavioral.org/...care-sail-shore-adolescent-independent-living
This is the link for the program my dd was in. They also had Riptide, a similar program but those kids were had drug addictions. Again, I realize how fortunate we are to have access to something like this.

 

[pweyl36]

My husband has a friend like this. His mother always bailed him out, no matter what. With bookies, with police, with courts...you name it she bailed him out for it. Never let him pay the price for anything he did. Well, she's dead now and he's a useless, unproductive adult (47 years old) who is on permanent disability due to one too many DUI accidents. Do not do this to your son. Let him pay the price. Since you already paid to get your son's truck out of the impound, make him sell it and keep the money toward the impound fees, court costs, etc. And if he doesn't like it, there's the door. Or, alternatively, if he's not old enough to be on his own (legally), remove EVERYTHING from his room. Take it all and sell it. Leave him a mattress and some clothes but that it. And if he steals from you again, call the police and have him removed. Maybe a little while in juvenile/jail might be the wakeup call he needs. Sit him down and tell him this is how it's going to be and the reprecussions. And I would also take away any keys to the house. When the family leaves for the day, so does he. He's not welcome back at the house until someone else is home. Good luck

Well said!

 

[MinnieLovesMickey12]

I can't say for sure what I would do. I never had to deal with that kind of thing with DS28 and I am now dealing with DD13 and her issues but all hers revolve around being hateful and disrespectful to me. I sent her to her dad's house until she learns how to act. My DS12 gives me no issues.

I am sure it has to be very frustrating dealing with that. He is your son and you don't want to kick him out because then he would just become someone else's problem. But I would think it would be very hard tolerating that kind of behavior.

Sorry I have no useful advice but I am sorry you are having to go through that.