Age vs Class in Sports

[Park Pirate]

Warning - this topic is about travel sports. I apologize if this has been covered before. However, I am wondering how other sports determine how to place teams in a tournament/competition.

My son plays both travel soccer and lacrosse. Although I enjoy the lacrosse a bit more, I must say that the soccer tournaments that I have been to are far more 'fair' as teams are required to have kids within the same calendar birth year and, it seems that this must be proven via a birth certificate. Lacrosse on the other hand is a mess.

Although it seems that USA Lacrosse is putting rules in to use age and verification, it seems that none of the tournaments are following these 'guidelines'. Pretty much every tournament we go to is organized by graduating class, and a certain number of holdovers are allowed. Travel programs are aware of this and often intentionally stack their teams with older players. I know of several very good players for their real age, that have been asked to play down, to strengthen a team. This completely changes the competitiveness of a team, especially when dealing with the physical differences at the ages involved.

So for example, a team playing in a 2023 (graduation year) bracket should typically have kids that are currently 13-14 years old and in 8th grade. However, it is very possible to have a 14-15 year old that is in 8th grade. Furthermore, many tournaments will even stipulate that you can have 5-6 holdovers on a team, which means that almost half the team can be a full year older. No one checks to see if they are in the correct grade.

My daughter is in competitive dance, and I know there is a lot of interpretation in determining the age of the group and proper competition level? I think they generally average the ages of a group dance team, often putting an extremely young girl or two in with a small part to lower the average? I think the competition level has guidelines, but I am not sure these are followed much.

We do generally enjoy the travel sports, but I have been on both sides - losing to teams that have far older kids or winning and not feeling like it was that great of an accomplishment. Improving and learning is the most important thing, but it is nice to have competitive events - no one really learns anything from a lopsided win or loss. How do other sports/activities, where age is a factor, try to even the competition level?

 

[Park Pirate]

I should mention that in many of the lacrosse tournaments, the age groups are still roughly defined in 2-year increments, such as 2028/2027 (10U), 2026/2025 (12U), and 2024/2023 (14U). So, you can actually have 12 year olds going up against 15 year olds. (I do realize that the younger teams are not being forced to play in the tournaments.)

 

[robinb]

My DD swam competitively and there were very strict rules in place about age. However, USA Swimming had one rule (you competed in the age group for the age you were when the meet started, including state championship) and the YMCA had a different rule (you competed in the age group you were when the meet started before December 1, but then for your age as if December 1 for the rest of the season, including the state championship). I remember one year a girl turned 11 in December and "aged up" from 9-10 to 11-12 for USA swimming took my DD's relay spot in the 9-10 medley relay for the YMCA State Meet because she was still considered "9-10" since she was still 10 on December 1. It did not seem fair since the girl swam in 11-12 events for 2-3 months, but those were the rules.

I know that swim meets have a meet document that spells out all the rules. I'm sure these tournaments publish the rules. Your coach is choosing to attend the tournaments with the rules in place that allow the holdovers and older players and is putting the team in those situations. You can't blame the other teams for using the rules to their advantage, the same way I couldn't blame my DD's coach for putting in the older and faster girl in the relay. If teams stopped attending the tournaments that allow for legal shenanigans they might get a clue and change their rules. I hope that USA Lacrosse comes up with rules that will set stricter limits.

 

[cmarsh31]

My son plays 14U lax - mostly rec though, because we have a big enough rec league that we don't bother with travel. His team played in 2 tournaments (one Elite and one rec) for fall. All 7th & 8th graders on his team so they were slaughtered at the Elite tournament. My kid is tall for his age, always has been (he weighs next to nothing, not an idea lax build) - I'm always "amused" when the entire other team is his size or larger and he's been the tallest kid on his team for 9 years. Go figure.

 

[mjkacmom]

Ds15 switched to a new soccer club this year because his last one used to cheat and bring in older players (using cards from players who were no longer on the team). So dumb, because kids switch clubs all of the time, and recognize each other, and coaches remember kids and know how old they are.

My girls do competitive Irish dance, also very strict by age, not grade. In over 10 years I can’t recall a single incident where someone tried to cheat (it would be all I’ve the message boards, tons of complainers questioning anything and everything).

School sports here go by grade, no juniors or seniors on JV. I can’t reme how it was in little league.

 

[Park Pirate]

I know that swim meets have a meet document that spells out all the rules. I'm sure these tournaments publish the rules. Your coach is choosing to attend the tournaments with the rules in place that allow the holdovers and older players and is putting the team in those situations. You can't blame the other teams for using the rules to their advantage, the same way I couldn't blame my DD's coach for putting in the older and faster girl in the relay. If teams stopped attending the tournaments that allow for legal shenanigans they might get a clue and change their rules. I hope that USA Lacrosse comes up with rules that will set stricter limits.

You are absolutely right. I don’t blame the coaches or programs. As mentioned, we have been on both sides. I just don’t like that way it is done and am asking how other sports do it.

 

[Park Pirate]

I'm always "amused" when the entire other team is his size or larger and he's been the tallest kid on his time for 9 years. Go figure.

Sounds very familiar to our experience!

 

[NotUrsula]

In figure skating age does count, but the controlling factor is testing. A skater must pass a proficiency test to demonstrate competency in each level's basic skills before being allowed to compete at that level (and then barred from competing in levels below it.) This is done mostly to keep competition fair and avoid unnecessarily extending the length of competitions with athletes who have zero chance of winning that particular event, but also to help prevent injuries. If, for example, competing at a particular level requires being able to execute a particular spin, you have no business entering the competition if you cannot execute that spin, because you are going to have to attempt it anyway, and if you don't know what you are doing, you are likely to hurt yourself trying.

It would be harder to do this in a sport where the skill set doesn't change as much as players advance, but I think you could manage it in some way if the process were properly thought through.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Warning - this topic is about travel sports. I apologize if this has been covered before. However, I am wondering how other sports determine how to place teams in a tournament/competition.

My son plays both travel soccer and lacrosse. Although I enjoy the lacrosse a bit more, I must say that the soccer tournaments that I have been to are far more 'fair' as teams are required to have kids within the same calendar birth year and, it seems that this must be proven via a birth certificate. Lacrosse on the other hand is a mess.

Although it seems that USA Lacrosse is putting rules in to use age and verification, it seems that none of the tournaments are following these 'guidelines'. Pretty much every tournament we go to is organized by graduating class, and a certain number of holdovers are allowed. Travel programs are aware of this and often intentionally stack their teams with older players. I know of several very good players for their real age, that have been asked to play down, to strengthen a team. This completely changes the competitiveness of a team, especially when dealing with the physical differences at the ages involved.

So for example, a team playing in a 2023 (graduation year) bracket should typically have kids that are currently 13-14 years old and in 8th grade. However, it is very possible to have a 14-15 year old that is in 8th grade. Furthermore, many tournaments will even stipulate that you can have 5-6 holdovers on a team, which means that almost half the team can be a full year older. No one checks to see if they are in the correct grade.

My daughter is in competitive dance, and I know there is a lot of interpretation in determining the age of the group and proper competition level? I think they generally average the ages of a group dance team, often putting an extremely young girl or two in with a small part to lower the average? I think the competition level has guidelines, but I am not sure these are followed much.

We do generally enjoy the travel sports, but I have been on both sides - losing to teams that have far older kids or winning and not feeling like it was that great of an accomplishment. Improving and learning is the most important thing, but it is nice to have competitive events - no one really learns anything from a lopsided win or loss. How do other sports/activities, where age is a factor, try to even the competition level?

Holding kids back when sports are organized by graduating class has become a big thing.
People would hold their kids back in 8h grade. So our governing body for high school sports instituted a 5 to play 4 rule starting in 8th grade instead of 4 to play 4 starting in 9th. Well everyone held their kids back in 7th grade instead of 8h. It is getting fashionable for people to hold kids up in kindergarten to make them older in order that they get less scrutiny. My son was the youngest kid in his class. He graduated at 17. Everyone else was 18 and a lot were 19. When every year in school you are trying out for the team in middle school and guys are 2 years older than you it simply isn't going to happen. A coach said to hold him back but I didn't. It simply wouldn't be right to pretty much take an extra year of his life just to make him better at sports.

School sports here go by grade, no juniors or seniors on JV. I can’t reme how it was in little league.

LL goes by age, skill, and location. Ages may vary a bit due to local needs. Some will let kids into player pitch minors at a younger age then others for example. But obviously we've seen some cheating go on in ll. Cheaters gonna cheat.

 

[mousefan1972]

Please. Don’t get me started. My son plays club (travel) lacrosse for a top program in Massachusetts. His grad year is 2023, so he’s in eighth grade. He turned 13 in August. So he’s a very young 2023. He’s playing with and against kids who are 15. These are kids who already had a fall birthday, then were “held back”. I would love to see lacrosse do what hockey already does, and group kids by birth year and not graduation year. Then hopefully this nonsense of kids repeating grades will stop. It’s maddening.

 

[tvguy]

I am not a fan of travel sports. The one's I have observed tend to have a lot less oversight and structure than non-travel leagues.

 

[cvjw]

You were lucky that your soccer experience was honest. My son played soccer competitively for many, many years. Not once did he have to prove his age. I just put his birthdate on the forms. He would show up at tournaments with his U-12 academy team and play a team full of grown men who were a foot taller than him and with a 5:00 shadow. It was disgraceful.

 

[aprilgail]

My daughter played soccer for 2 years when she was little- she was born in Nov and made the school cut off but the soccer league had a September cut off so she had to play a year down, she was in 1st and playing with kindergarten kids and all her friends were in the first grade group so she was not happy and didn't want to play anymore. I just can't even imagine anyone holding their child back in school just for sports- to be 19 and in high school is hysterical.

 

[sam_gordon]

We've been involved in travel soccer (two kids) for the last eight years. We have to provide a birth certificate to the club when we first signed up a child. That certifies to the club they are eligible to play in the age group we sign them up for. The club prints out cards (with pictures) that get checked against the player before each game. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

When older DD was playing travel softball, we had to provide a BC at the beginning of each season and the coach had a binder with him at each game. But there were no "checks and balances" that I remember. It would be up to an opposing coach to question whether a player was the correct age.

Travel soccer used to sort by school age (ie: the birthday split was Sept. 1), and a couple years ago sorted by actual birth year. DS, with an October birthday used to be one of the older ones on his travel team, but now he's one of the youngest. However, he "lost" a year of eligibility. He played as U12 before the change, then the next year he played at U14. His travel team is half sophomores and half freshman right now. By doing the math, when he enters his travel season his senior year in HS, half of his team will have already graduated and gone on to college. I'm not sure what happens then.

He did play in an indoor league a couple years ago. We were late getting a copy of his BC to the organizers, and they were pressuring hard because other coaches were supposedly complaining because of his height. Funny, some of the kids on other teams had mustaches, and this was supposed to be 13 year olds.

 

[Klayfish]

I don't get why people get wound up over the age thing. Sure, you don't want a 10 year old playing against a 15 year old, but if it's two school grades together, I don't have any issue with it. All 3 of my kids play lacrosse, two of them year round (the third splits his time with football). I have seen them bracketed in several different ways...by age group, such as U9, U11, U13. That means kids spend 2 years in each age group. So technically you could have a very young 11 year old playing against a kid who is just turning 13 in U13. But that's just the way it goes, it doesn't bother me. I've also seen it done by grad year so the kids are all fairly close in age. That's usually a club team thing here, where rec leagues are U9, etc...set ups. I've had my kids on both ends of the spectrum. My youngest played goalie for the U13 team when he was 9, and my oldest played U13 when he was already a bit past his 13th b-day. I never had a problem with it either way. At these ages, you're going to get a wide variety in physical size, talent level, etc...no matter how you slice it. My younger sons football team, which was 6th grade only, had kids ranging in size from 75lbs to 195lbs. So as long as it's not outside of "reasonable" such as 10 year old vs 15 year old, I'm OK with it.

 

[soccerdad72]

DS, with an October birthday used to be one of the younger ones on his travel team, but now he's one of the oldest. However, he "lost" a year of eligibility. He played as U12 before the change, then the next year he played at U14. His travel team is half sophomores and half freshman right now. By doing the math, when he enters his travel season his senior year in HS, half of his team will have already graduated and gone on to college. I'm not sure what happens then.

It will be difficult, at least based on my experience. My older son, who is a senior now, is a 2000 birthday. The year that US Soccer made the birth year change, he had a hard time finding a club team to play on during the spring of his junior year. Many of the clubs in our area either had a 99 team, many of them seniors who were going on to college programs in the next fall, or only a 2001 team. 2000 teams often were combining with 2001 and playing the whole group up.

One thing I noticed with the age group change in soccer is that in clubs with more than one team, the older kids within an age group (e.g. those 2005 kids who are in 8th grade) tend to get the better teams over the younger kids (those in 7th grade). I suppose that would likely happen either way, it's just the combination of two grades within an age group that can be tough sometimes.

 

[sam_gordon]

It will be difficult, at least based on my experience. My older son, who is a senior now, is a 2000 birthday. The year that US Soccer made the birth year change, he had a hard time finding a club team to play on during the spring of his junior year. Many of the clubs in our area either had a 99 team, many of them seniors who were going on to college programs in the next fall, or only a 2001 team. 2000 teams often were combining with 2001 and playing the whole group up.

I'm assuming the 2004 team (my son is a 03) will play "up" and pick up the 03 kids on our roster. We currently have 17 on our roster and 11 of them graduate in 2021. That leaves 6 (including DS) in theory without a team their senior year. Of course, I'm talking three years down the road and things can change (and probably will). I'm not stressing over it, but I'd be lying if I said I hadn't thought about it.

One thing I noticed with the age group change in soccer is that in clubs with more than one team, the older kids within an age group (e.g. those 2005 kids who are in 8th grade) tend to get the better teams over the younger kids (those in 7th grade). I suppose that would likely happen either way, it's just the combination of two grades within an age group that can be tough sometimes.

No matter when you do the split, you could have someone that's almost a year older than a teammate/competitor (not counting those who play up).

 

[soccerdad72]

One thing that the soccer age change did create was more 'trapped' players, especially 8th graders and Juniors for their spring season. Our 2004 team struggled this past fall trying to find games to play, as there was no regional level leagues for their age groups and many of the smaller clubs didn't really even have a true 2004 team.

 

[sam_gordon]

One thing that the soccer age change did create was more 'trapped' players, especially 8th graders and Juniors for their spring season. Our 2004 team struggled this past fall trying to find games to play, as there was no regional level leagues for their age groups and many of the smaller clubs didn't really even have a true 2004 team.

Did they look at the Buckeye Premier League (you are in Ohio, aren't you)? Looks like they had five U15 levels... https://secure.hammerweb.net/BPYSLSchedules/selectstandings.asp. A quick Google search also shows the Ohio North State League http://www.ohionorthsoccer.org/leagues/stateleague/ and the Ohio Travel Soccer League http://ohtsl.com/.

Now, I'll grant you, as the kids age up, smaller clubs have problems fielding enough players for a team. But that was a problem before the age change and will continue well after.

 

[soccerdad72]

BPL, I believe, is for Ohio South teams and I think our club director chooses not to play in the Ohio North state league (for whatever reason). The team is in the Great Lakes Conference (what used to be called the Midwest Regional League), but they didn't have a U15 league this fall, just an "exhibition" league.