Caring for Giants/Service Anaimals

[DG25]

Thought I would pass this on. Last year I took the sense of Africa tour, awesome, but everyone had to scramble as to what to do with a service animal. I can't write what happened, but I can say Disney goes above and beyond. Well they just came out with Caring for Giants tour, we called to book. At the bottle it gave a number for guest with service animals, so I called that number several times over the week and this morning at 5:15 am, whoops Disney staff need to understand time changes, but I was up and awake, they called me back. CM who was an animal experiment team, told me sad news is at the moment they are not allowing service animals, but they are training the elephants with dogs, so it is in the works, it may take a few months or a year, but when it is safe they will allow service animals to accompany there handlers.

We had a wonderful talk about service animals, and the parks, I felt so impressed by it all, and how far Disney is going to accommodate. I'm not sure how to say this without offending someone, so I will just say, my intention is not to offend, or to get into any argument about service dogs and pets, or why the law is the way it is. That is not my intent, I just want to say how far Disney is going when it comes to service animals. That said, we talked and he said at animals kingdom, with tours and such the problem becomes a two sided problem, the dog has to be able to behave and follow its handlers command, and the animals they are showing has to be able to behave and listen and follow there handlers command. And with handlers they can't control (me) and with guest they can't control, and two animals who can have unknown behaviors it is a touchy thing.

He said we have had some animals we think, hey this is doing good, then we have a dog charge and bark and nip and for the safety of everyone we just can't handle that with live animals that weight 2 tons. We got into the law and I told him a few things he said he did not know and wrote them down, so he could research.

Anyway, I was as I say very impressed that Disney is putting the effort into this. Personally, for me I hope it works. But I fully believe that it will not and at some point they will just put a policy up that says for the safety of all, we just can not. But they are trying, and they do have a number to call if you want to bring a service animal on a tour, maybe because they want to know how many are interested, or maybe because they can offer a solution like they did me last year (which I can't say on an open server what that was), or maybe because there are some that you can bring a service animal on, like the safari. I would say what I know others have said, make sure your service animal is trained well before taken on Disney, they are really trying to accommodate and the more well trained dogs they see, maybe the further we will get in accommodations.

 

[peemagg]

I can see their issue and agree that they have to be very careful for all involved. A fully trained actual service dog should never behave the way they described. To me this is another problem of fake service dogs. They are not trained to behave like they should. There has to be a way to stop the fakes, but I don't know exactly what it is. If someone can find a way around things, they will no matter what they have to do to do it!

 

[Ms_Butterfly]

That's impressive that they're trying, since they legally can just say no for the safety of their animals and those who care for them (if an elephant goes crazy, the handler certainly could be in danger). Are there any Animal Kingdom tours service dogs are allowed on?

 

[DG25]

That's impressive that they're trying, since they legally can just say no for the safety of their animals and those who care for them (if an elephant goes crazy, the handler certainly could be in danger). Are there any Animal Kingdom tours service dogs are allowed on?

To your first statement that I took as a question not a statement, I'm not sure they can legally say for the safety. They allow the public access to the back area, my service dog is allowed in public areas, unless they can prove it unsafe. Without trying, there is no proof an elephant and a service dog can not be together, elephants and dogs worked together in the circus, I remember the shows a few years back. So as I say, I am very impressed that Disney sees it that way and at least is giving it a try, I would assume, and this is what I was trying to avoid saying, I will assume at some point they will say no, because there are just to many untrained service animals in the world today, and we can change the wording to fake service dogs or whatever you want to call them.

To your second question, I don't think there are tours yet, I can bring my service dog on the safari ride. When I bring my service dog on the safari, and I am leaving the driver always turns to me and says, now that is one trained dog, I say yes she is a service animal. He says yes we have them all the time, but I have never seen one follow the rules we give like that dog has, she never moved a muscle, I said, you told me to tether her down, and to not allow her to move or jump up, or bark, I gave the commands and she followed them. Every time they say, I wish they all would behave like she does, it can be scary when they start barking, or jumping up. I also have brought my service animal up o rafeki, but when other animals are out, I don't make it a happen to go walking up to say a snake to pet it with my dog, although I will also admit, I don't have sight so I'm sure we pass animals. I do know at DL, in the petting area, my dog was allowed one day, I was not sure about it and I didn't stay inside very long, but I did come up to the fence on outside and the goats, and such came right up to the dog and there was no problem, I just give the command leave it, and my dog doesn't even sniff.

 

[Ms_Butterfly]

Zoos and other animal places can legally exclude service dogs from areas where the presence of a dog can upset a resident animal and also petting areas and such, so it doesn't matter that the public can go on the tours, service dogs can still be excluded if it would interfere with the animals even if the dog doesn't do anything.

Uhm, I wouldn't be petting a snake, but hats off to you for wanting to do so!

That's sad that the safari driver you had said he had bad experiences with dogs on the safari. My previous service dog went on it multiple times without issue and I know others have, too, so it isn't uncommon. (My current service dog hasn't gotten the opportunity to go to Disney yet.)

One time, a Disney employee was impressed that my dog could lay down on command, LOL, so you get all kinds! (I am pretty sure he was from a foreign country where dogs are not trained at all.)

 

[DG25]

I will respectfully disagree with you, I do not agree that zoos, or Disney, or anyone else can legally say my service animal is not allowed, that would be against the law. Disney has made a dicision that the public is allowed behind the sevens. My dog is legally allowed anywhere the public can go. Example of a resturaunts, My service dog is allowed in any restaraunt, My service dog is not allowed into the kitchen of the restaurant but neither is the public. My service dog was not allowed behind the closed doors at Disney, until Disney opened it to the public. Legally, Disney has to find a solution, and they are working on it, without being sued, I give them credit. But to say they can legally stop a service animal going into a place where they now allow service animals would not be following the letter of the law. They have to prove that it can not be done. They need to be able to take to court, this is what we have tried, we can not find a solution, and we are now restricting service animals, Disney has not done that, and who knows what a court would say, but I give Disney huge applause here because I now know that they are trying. The solution may be that they need to place kennels, for long term stays into the parks. As it has been brought up, those who need service animals can not run all the way to the kennel just for an hours tour, that is not a reasonable accommodation, but if they staff a very small kennel on site that is a reasonable accommodation, only for service animals. Right now, Disney is in limbo, they are trying to see can we allow service dogs, and will this work, or what other reasonable accommodation will work. I find it amazing that Disney is following the law in trying to find a solution, and in a good time frame, since they are trying before the tour even opened to the public. And I know Disney has gone above and beyond the call of duty when it comes to service animals, due to so many fake service animals, or not well trained service animals I will not state on public forum, but I have been hugely impressed my last four visits when it comes to the accommodations, and what they will do. They have come up with solutions that I never thought they would do, and it really is beyond what I feel the law states they have to do, so I am very impressed.

I will not say there are not true service animals. It just has not been my experience. I have seen many dogs in trainings from schools, especially in DL, but for every one I see in training I have seen 5 to 10 others who just should not be in the park. Someday I wish that would change, but for now I deal with it. And no your assumption that the tour guide came from another country was wrong, unless Texas is no longer a part of US. It is not just the safari driver who tells me that there experiences are not what they would like, I have had resort staff tell me that, security staff have told me that, cm have told me that. It has been my experience also.

But let me state again, this post was started not to focus on the negative or call out fake dogs. It was started to give a heads up to those who have service dogs and how Disney is going above and beyond to accommodate them. I think they are doing a great job the past few years, and a lot of it is behind the close doors that we would not have known about without asking questions.

 

[DG25]

Sorry, just read your reply, the law does not give zoos the right to exclude a service animal, zoos who have not been sued may be doing this. But it is not right. My zoo allows my dog everywhere. And I mean everywhere, I go at least once a week. The only place they ask me to stand back a bit, is with the open bird shows. They ask because if by chance the birds see the dog they may fly away. So after a while they build a little shed like place with open fence like sides for me and my dog to go in. I am only feet away, still with the public, still have access to all of the show, but protecting the birds who are flying freely. The zoo did not have the right by law to exclude me, they had a right to protect there animals the birds, and they worked on a solution to fix the problem and make everyone safe.

I have many friends that have service animals who have to leave them in kennels right outside the job site, because they are building plane parts for Boeing, Boeing is not saying by law we don't want the dogs, they proved that dog hair in the parts could take down a plane, so the built a climate control kennel, feet from the working floor right out side the building. The kennels have 8x8 rooms with indoor outdoor space, climate control, they come with beds and water bowls and such.

The law never gives the right to a person to disregard the law, it says if you allow public in you must allow service animals, unless you have proof of why you can't, and then you show how you will accommodate. That is what Disney is doing. What a great job from just a few years ago.

 

[LilyWDW]

From ada.gov (bolding mine):

In most settings, the presence of a service animal will not result in a fundamental alteration. However, there are some exceptions. For example, at a boarding school, service animals could be restricted from a specific area of a dormitory reserved specifically for students with allergies to dog dander. At a zoo, service animals can be restricted from areas where the animals on display are the natural prey or natural predators of dogs, where the presence of a dog would be disruptive, causing the displayed animals to behave aggressively or become agitated. They cannot be restricted from other areas of the zoo.

So if the presence of the dog would be disruptive, the zoo does have the right to not allow service dogs access. They do not have to "“fundamentally alter” the nature of the goods, services, programs, or activities provided to the public. Nor does it overrule legitimate safety requirements."

 

[DG25]

From ada.gov (bolding mine):

In most settings, the presence of a service animal will not result in a fundamental alteration. However, there are some exceptions. For example, at a boarding school, service animals could be restricted from a specific area of a dormitory reserved specifically for students with allergies to dog dander. At a zoo, service animals can be restricted from areas where the animals on display are the natural prey or natural predators of dogs, where the presence of a dog would be disruptive, causing the displayed animals to behave aggressively or become agitated. They cannot be restricted from other areas of the zoo.

So if the presence of the dog would be disruptive, the zoo does have the right to not allow service dogs access. They do not have to "“fundamentally alter” the nature of the goods, services, programs, or activities provided to the public. Nor does it overrule legitimate safety requirements."

I would agree, except, there is no evidence that elephants and dogs are predators. There is of yet any evidence that elephants behave aggressively to dogs, circus' have paired elephants and dogs for a long time. Also, you are not quoting the law, you are giving an example. Just like I have giving examples. The problem with what you are saying, is thatthey can do it if the animals are disruptive. There is no evidence that it is disruptive, so Disney has the burden of proof. I never said they had to fundamentally alter any thing, (although I read that as something else and know for a fact that means something different in other cases, ( it means they can not water down the goods or services, give you half of the service) when it says they do not have to fundamentally alter, it means, they By law need to give you the same experience, but does not give them the right to not reasonably accommodate, they are obligated by law to accommodate. if they can not accommodate the service animal, they have to offer a reasonable accommodation. Disney has not offered a reasonable accommodation to tours and attraction that they allow the public into when it comes to animal kingdom.

Blind individuals have already fought Disney and won, that is why there are kennels for dogs at all rides dogs can not go on. They offer a reasonable accommodation. They did not alter the ride like they do for w/c, they did not alter the queue. They did offer a reasonable accommodation, a kennel for the dog and a manager to sit with the dog while you are on the ride. It took almost 20 years after ADA was signed in, and it took a lawsuit because people kept saying no to blind individuals, but the kennels are there and the ride was not altered.

I did not start this thread to start a fight or to argue the law, which I do understand quite well. I wanted people to see how far Disney has come. But others seem to think that the law of reasonable accommodation stops just because they don't think elephants and dogs should be together. Not even Disney has say that, the law states that they CAN If it disrupts. Disney is finally looking at the law and realizing they can not just make a blanket statement and say no dogs and no reasonable accommodation. Disney gets it even if others don't. Until they can say it is dangerous, and even I believe that will be the case, not because of true service dogs but because of fake service dogs and pets. Will I be mad if Disney determines that it can not happen, no not at all, but it will not be because of service animals or elephants, it will be because of fake service animals and pets going in without proper training. Will that be the end, no Disney still has to reasonable accommodate, and like myself and many other people, it is not a reasonable accommodation to say go use the kennels 10 miles away. Blind can not drive there. They would be charging me to use the reasonable accommodation, just like they can not charge a w/c user more for a roll in shower, they can not charge me to use a kennel if I want to go on something they offer to the public, and they can not charge me more for it, which they are when they say I need to go use there kennels. It also is jot a reasonable accommodation to have to go 10 miles out of your way. So if Disney can prove it disrupts elephants, because service animals and fake service animals are in contact, which they are not, you are still 100 feet from the elephants, unlike the sense of Africa tour, where you literally get to feed two animals, the elephants you never touch and you are 100 ft away from them. If Disney can prove it unsafe, than yes they have the right to say no, but then they have to reasonable accommodate. That is the law. Otherwise they are saying they will not allow individuals go on the tour, which is what would happen to me if they do not accommodate and that is again the law.

Moderated, I do not like to play the if and can and have people take it and spread it as an if or can is the law. Please close this thread. If a dog is a predator to an elephant or an elephant to a dog, I have never heard of it. If and can stop a dog from going, but forgetting to say that they law would still require a reasonable accommodation. That is just ridiculous and needs to stop now.

 

[wilkeliza]

I would agree, except, there is no evidence that elephants and dogs are predators. There is of yet any evidence that elephants behave aggressively to dogs, circus' have paired elephants and dogs for a long time. Also, you are not quoting the law, you are giving an example. Just like I have giving examples. The problem with what you are saying, is thatthey can do it if the animals are disruptive. There is no evidence that it is disruptive, so Disney has the burden of proof. I never said they had to fundamentally alter any thing, (although I read that as something else and know for a fact that means something different in other cases, ( it means they can not water down the goods or services, give you half of the service) when it says they do not have to fundamentally alter, it means, they By law need to give you the same experience, but does not give them the right to not reasonably accommodate, they are obligated by law to accommodate. if they can not accommodate the service animal, they have to offer a reasonable accommodation. Disney has not offered a reasonable accommodation to tours and attraction that they allow the public into when it comes to animal kingdom.

Blind individuals have already fought Disney and won, that is why there are kennels for dogs at all rides dogs can not go on. They offer a reasonable accommodation. They did not alter the ride like they do for w/c, they did not alter the queue. They did offer a reasonable accommodation, a kennel for the dog and a manager to sit with the dog while you are on the ride. It took almost 20 years after ADA was signed in, and it took a lawsuit because people kept saying no to blind individuals, but the kennels are there and the ride was not altered.

I did not start this thread to start a fight or to argue the law, which I do understand quite well. I wanted people to see how far Disney has come. But others seem to think that the law of reasonable accommodation stops just because they don't think elephants and dogs should be together. Not even Disney has say that, the law states that they CAN If it disrupts. Disney is finally looking at the law and realizing they can not just make a blanket statement and say no dogs and no reasonable accommodation. Disney gets it even if others don't. Until they can say it is dangerous, and even I believe that will be the case, not because of true service dogs but because of fake service dogs and pets. Will I be mad if Disney determines that it can not happen, no not at all, but it will not be because of service animals or elephants, it will be because of fake service animals and pets going in without proper training. Will that be the end, no Disney still has to reasonable accommodate, and like myself and many other people, it is not a reasonable accommodation to say go use the kennels 10 miles away. Blind can not drive there. They would be charging me to use the reasonable accommodation, just like they can not charge a w/c user more for a roll in shower, they can not charge me to use a kennel if I want to go on something they offer to the public, and they can not charge me more for it, which they are when they say I need to go use there kennels. It also is jot a reasonable accommodation to have to go 10 miles out of your way. So if Disney can prove it disrupts elephants, because service animals and fake service animals are in contact, which they are not, you are still 100 feet from the elephants, unlike the sense of Africa tour, where you literally get to feed two animals, the elephants you never touch and you are 100 ft away from them. If Disney can prove it unsafe, than yes they have the right to say no, but then they have to reasonable accommodate. That is the law. Otherwise they are saying they will not allow individuals go on the tour, which is what would happen to me if they do not accommodate and that is again the law.

Moderated, I do not like to play the if and can and have people take it and spread it as an if or can is the law. Please close this thread. If a dog is a predator to an elephant or an elephant to a dog, I have never heard of it. If and can stop a dog from going, but forgetting to say that they law would still require a reasonable accommodation. That is just ridiculous and needs to stop now.

Just for clarification there is not a manager who stands with the dog kennels. Perhaps that is your experience but it is just a regular CM and they do not watch the dogs for stress, aggression, etc they just try to ensure that only the person who owns the dog is who picks it up.

I believe Disney's reasonable accommodation would be to provide a guide and somewhere your dog can be comfortably left while on the tour.

You keep quoting the circus but please know the dogs and elephants in those acts are usually beat into submission. Just because it happens in a circus does not make it the natural instinct of an animal. The thing is an Elephant is a 2 ton animal. Any place can say the reasonable risk assessment is that putting an expensive service animal next to a 2 ton Elephant that isn't trained to be friendly to dogs could be a bad situation for everyone involved. I agree with you that Disney is interpreting the current law as written but I'm not sure they would lose this one in the courts based on the risk assessment clause.

 

[DG25]

Just for clarification there is not a manager who stands with the dog kennels. Perhaps that is your experience but it is just a regular CM and they do not watch the dogs for stress, aggression, etc they just try to ensure that only the person who owns the dog is who picks it up.

I believe Disney's reasonable accommodation would be to provide a guide and somewhere your dog can be comfortably left while on the tour.

You keep quoting the circus but please know the dogs and elephants in those acts are usually beat into submission. Just because it happens in a circus does not make it the natural instinct of an animal. The thing is an Elephant is a 2 ton animal. Any place can say the reasonable risk assessment is that putting an expensive service animal next to a 2 ton Elephant that isn't trained to be friendly to dogs could be a bad situation for everyone involved. I agree with you that Disney is interpreting the current law as written but I'm not sure they would lose this one in the courts based on the risk assessment clause.

I never said how they watch my dog, I said a manager, it is not a CM it is a manager, every ride for two years i have gone on, I have had to wait for the manager/supervisor to come, the cm will not watch the dog. No they do not watch as I never said they do for any kind of stress, they just make sure the dog is not taken and the dog is not bothered by other guest. Thank you for inferring so much of things I never said.

Disney has no reasonable accommodation for me or my dog if I want to go on a tour that she is not allowed on. They are against ADA. It has been on a case by case basis, I assume, and as I say I will not say on an open forum what Disney has done, when I reminded them of the law, but I will say they went above and beyond, maybe because they realized that I know the law and not just the if and cans and forget the rest.

I did not quote, I made a reference of experience, and the elephants I saw where not beating into submission, that has not been the case for many years. Yes it is a reasonable risk for Disney to allow people into see elephants from 100 feet away. Disney opened the door and opened the risk. Since they opened the door, they need to follow the law. I did not say they would win or lose. My point that everyone who thinks they know the law, is that Disney is going above and beyond, they are interpreting the law and finding out, we opened it to public, service dogs can assess public, so can we or can we not put dogs and elephants together. I think that is way better than any other business out there. They are trying. I have said in the end I believe they will say no, not because of elephant or service dogs, but because of rude people who think they can pass a fake pet off as a service dog, who does not want to pay for boarding the dog who has no right to be in the public. I hope then they will provide a reasonable accommodation to the problem. I am just thankful, I understand the law enough that evidentially disney is scared, because I have to say when they offer me one thing and I explain to them the law, they have gone above and beyond anything I ever imagined and I am thankful for that. Also, I think you missed the part in the story when you where inferring so much of the things I never said, but the elephant and the dog would not be in contact ever, even the people and the elephants are not in contact. In the tour as I mentioned, you are at least 100 ft away that is 1/3 of a football field, not close contact. I personally think if a person thinks that is to close for a dog who is trained then it must also be to close for people, and they are allowing 4 year olds on this tour. I would be more afraid of the poor parenting skills, of parents who don't watch there children than I would be with my dog causing a problem.

But just so I am clear, the real problem here is not if a true service animal could do it, my dog has already been near elephants and not just at a circus. The problem is not mine or anyone else who has a trained service animal. The problem is the fake service animals, and it is only a matter of time some idiot brings a fake service animal into a tour when if it is open to service animals, that dog bark, charge or whatever, and then that elephant will never trust another animal, that is the risk.

 

[lanejudy]

Closing thread on request of OP.