Confused?

JoyfulHeart

Earning My Ears
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
I have tried to find a thread on this, but haven't - I may have easily missed it. Everything I am reading is how bad Disney had become, no magic and so so crowded...etc.... I guess I am confused. We went in the summer of '17 and spring break of '21. Both trips were enjoyable, but very different, we knew ahead of time there would be a lot of concessions for the '21 trip (wearing mask, must mobile order, no fast pass, etc..). I guess my question is why is it so bad now? I would think with the park operating at slightly lower capacity max, it should be similar to our '17 trip? Why are people unable to get Genie+ passes? I would think it would be EASIER as many have noted not ALL people are purchasing the product, where FP were free, so everyone had them. I remember getting 5-6 a day on average and we were there during peak summer months. I am understanding why the rope drop method is not as good as before, due to the 7am wake up call. But in '17 the lines were never this bad. Your big rides of course were long, but you could hit up the smaller rides in 20 minutes or less. But it seems every time I check almost everything is over an hour? My two girls are not adventurous. We rode arial 7 times our first trip and the Haunted mansion 10 times the second trip.... ( HM was never over 5 minute wait due to Covid lowered capacities and everyone was waiting at the bigger mountain rides). I guess the math isn't making sense to me. I know I am probably missing something obvious, but I just don't get it? How could we get 5+ FP a day in '17 with higher capacities and ppl are saying they are get 0 or 1 a day now? How are lines hours long ALL DAY with lower capacity when it was only like that with the big rides in '17? Unless the lower capacity is really just one person less in each park so they can say it- HA! We have a trip in late June and I am beginning to think it is going to be horrible. I thought our biggest issue was going to be the heat when we booked! If someone wouldn't mind explaining this, I would appreciate it.

Thanks!
 
Your thread sums up why people are not happy. We don't know why things are this way but reality is, they are. G+ is paid but offers less than free FP+ did. Long lines. Some attractions and food locations are still closed which means less places for people to go.

I would recommend reading the 'Here Now and Just Back' thread as people share their experiences there.

We went last month and had a great time! Was it like our past trips? No. But, we knew it would be different so chose to look for the positives but sadly sometimes we had to look really hard.
 
I did G+ the week it opened in October. I hopped to three parks and got all the headliners. It was like a dream. I doubt I'll ever be able to recreate it. Current G+... Well... I might as well have just put some money on a Mickey balloon and let it go.
 
I haven't been this year - was there last June and we had a great time. But I can't weigh in, yet, on this year. I'll be reporting back. But one thing I think that needs to be cleared up is that we do not have any reason to think that things are at "lower capacity" right now. Just because there are park reservations required, and yes, some days are selling out, we have no insight as to what the "capacity" really is right now. Whatever it is, we also know that not everything is open and available, especially the "people eater" attractions and options - shows, full dining options, nighttime entertainment, etc. Things are slowly coming back online, but we are not there yet.
 


G+ is paid but offers less than free FP+ did.
I did G+ the week it opened in October. I hopped to three parks and got all the headliners. It was like a dream. I doubt I'll ever be able to recreate it. Current G+... Well... I might as well have just put some money on a Mickey balloon and let it go.

I don't really consider any comparison between Genie+ and FastPass+ to be worth much (yet).

Genie+ has only ever existed in a world with:
- A global pandemic
- A nationwide labor shortage
- Closed or semi-closed national borders
- Limited attraction capacity
- Unprecedented peaks and valleys of demand
- Thousands of dollars of government stimulus payments to most families

We have no idea how it will feel to use Genie+ during "normal" times, just like we have no idea how FastPass+ would have performed the last two years. People are comparing Genie+ during COVID with FastPass+ pre-COVID, and I think the tendency is to assign too much blame to G+ vs. FP+ rather than COVID vs. no COVID.
 
Peculiarly, one thing that distressed me somewhat was how much trash there was overflowing bins and on the ground in the parks. It wasn't getting cleaned up nearly as well as pre-covid, either. We saw not a single groundskeeper with dustpan and broom in the parks but definite need for them.

But, we knew it would be different so chose to look for the positives but sadly sometimes we had to look really hard.

Same here.

Intellectually, we also knew things would be somewhat different when we went back in November. However, the reality was stronger emotionally than we thought it would be. We returned to our room more than a few times disappointed by long lines, unruly behavior by guests and sparse service despite CMs dashing about trying to keep up.

BTW, I don't just mean long standby lines. Our experiences with those weren't that bad as we ropedropped and found most standby moved steadily enough we didn't feel burdened. It was lines for PhotoPass photographers that often stretched to a dozen or more. There were hardly any photographers out in the parks, and we never did find one at the GF lobby. No photo by the gingerbread house. <sigh>

On the whole, we didn't have a great time and decided to give a return a year to see if things in this country normalize more and if Disney can gain ground restoring standards.
 
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I don't really consider any comparison between Genie+ and FastPass+ to be worth much (yet).

Genie+ has only ever existed in a world with:
- A global pandemic
- A nationwide labor shortage
- Closed or semi-closed national borders
- Limited attraction capacity
- Unprecedented peaks and valleys of demand
- Thousands of dollars of government stimulus payments to most families

We have no idea how it will feel to use Genie+ during "normal" times, just like we have no idea how FastPass+ would have performed the last two years. People are comparing Genie+ during COVID with FastPass+ pre-COVID, and I think the tendency is to assign too much blame to G+ vs. FP+ rather than COVID vs. no COVID.
No offence meant but I will agree to disagree on this.

Yes, FP+ was pre-Covid but, it gave me the opportunity to book 3 attractions before ever entering a park. Friends purchased G+ for ANIMAL KINGDOM yesterday and only got 2 G+ reservations, one of which was Bug's Life and the second the time they were assigned was many hours later (once they confirmed the purchase) so they were unable to use it. Their family paid $75 for a LL to Bug's Life. :(

I'm using them as an example as I count them as an 'average' Disney family. While I offered assistance prior to their trip, they were well familiar with FP so decided they could handle it on their own. Sadly, proof above that an average, 'uneducated' family cannot use G+ to their advantage.

Thankfully she and I are texting often today and we're setting up a better plan for her for tomorrow in the MK. It shouldn't have to be that way though. In the past I helped MANY families book trips to WDW and other than a quick, 'Hey, look into FP+' they were good to go. Now G+ requires long pages of instructions and assistance to get a fraction of what they got in the past with very little guidance.....and for free!
 
Yes, FP+ was pre-Covid but, it gave me the opportunity to book 3 attractions before ever entering a park.
Uber-planners loved this (I'm including myself here). But there were also huge numbers of people complaining that Disney "forced them" to "plan every minute of every day" 60 days in advance.

Friends purchased G+ for ANIMAL KINGDOM yesterday and only got 2 G+ reservations, one of which was Bug's Life and the second the time they were assigned was many hours later (once they confirmed the purchase) so they were unable to use it. Their family paid $75 for a LL to Bug's Life. :(

I'm using them as an example as I count them as an 'average' Disney family. While I offered assistance prior to their trip, they were well familiar with FP so decided they could handle it on their own. Sadly, proof above that an average, 'uneducated' family cannot use G+ to their advantage.

Thankfully she and I are texting often today and we're setting up a better plan for her for tomorrow in the MK. It shouldn't have to be that way though. In the past I helped MANY families book trips to WDW and other than a quick, 'Hey, look into FP+' they were good to go. Now G+ requires long pages of instructions and assistance to get a fraction of what they got in the past with very little guidance.....and for free!
Could be. I'm just not sold that these average families were quite as competent with FP+ as you are.
 
I just returned from a week at WDW. A 30 year AP. I found Genie + terrible and unforgiving. I wasted money for three days until I realized that nothing beats rope drop [free]. Instead of starting each day happy and excited, I started aggravated because of G+. I think this entire system was designed by a Universal plant, who was sent to infiltrate Disney and destroy our magic.
 
Whatever it is, we also know that not everything is open and available, especially the "people eater" attractions and options - shows, full dining options, nighttime entertainment, etc. Things are slowly coming back online, but we are not there yet.

You know, I keep hearing this (bolded), but for the life of me I can't figure out what those may be? I'm not picking on you jbish because I see this all over these boards. What exactly are these "closed" people eaters and "other things" not available (EPCOT excluded because it is just a mess although its crowds are far more easily navigated).

For example, at Studios: B&TB, Indiana Jones, Frozen Sing Along all back as well as modified character visits and cavalcades. Does missing Fantasmic! at night really account for the massive crowds in the morning and early afternoon?

I don't believe there are any restaurants closed at Studios and if any aren't open--it is probably seasonal and intentionally closed. If something other than restaurants is currently closed--it is probably intentional and Disney won't be reopening it. We have also dined at many of the restaurants (full service) pre and post-pandemic. While in October 2020, there were definitely fewer dining in--I can assure you that in October 2021 and February 2022, those places were full to capacity and we did not eat at prime dining times.

The gift stores were all open when we were there at the end of February along with everything but Fantasmic! Admittedly, the stock in October 2020 was more limited, but we did not appreciate the same limitations in February 2022. The stores were packed with shoppers on both recent occasions.

I am over Disney's blame the pandemic game when there are still those CMs out there claiming to be "furloughed" and not recalled. ToT is working at half capacity due to some "technical issues" and park rides are down nearly every day for lengthy periods. Deferred maintenance or overwhelming capacity--who knows what is the cause.

The crowds, however, have been much larger since October 2020 (our first post-closing visit) and have grown with each visit (May 2021, October 2021 and February 2022). Early 1/2 hour for resort guests is a joke and rope drop is the most crowded I have ever experienced since we began going in 1993 (for many years during the busy summer months and from 2010 to present at least May and October with a third trip thrown in here and there at other times). Disney can swear that it is limiting capacity (and the whole reservation system and 2:00 p.m. hopping is all about what benefits Disney and has nothing to do with crowd control), but I didn't buy the 35% of capacity claim in October 2020 and I certainly don't buy the "limited capacity" claim at present.

Pre-pandemic, crowds were becoming increasingly intense and we took note of it at the time. The quiet season wasn't so quiet (May and October for us), but manageable for those of us who had years under our belts. In days long gone, you could rope drop a park, have a minimal wait to get into the park and knock out several (and maybe more rides) before 11:00 a.m. At 10:30 a.m., the parks began to fill and by 11:00 a.m., when we typically departed the parks; we were salmon swimming upstream with the masses pouring in.

I haven't used Genie+ yet and from what I have read, we seem to fare as well as and better than some who do--but that is another topic.

Presently, if you aren't at the tapstiles at least one-half to three quarters of an hour PRIOR to opening (ETPE), you are at the back of the pack and will be waiting. Buses from resorts (with folks waiting prior to 6:00 a.m. to be on the first bus) was pretty much unheard of just a mere three to four years ago (especially in the aforementioned quiet times).

I use Studios as an example because it seems to be the worst of the four with regard to crowds (and frankly, I don't have the time to go further in depth for each park), but the same applies to MK, AK and EPCOT (what is closed there was the same pre-pandemic [but for Space 220--which finally opened after years of speculation :)] and intentional).

Disney removes a Lauau (and HDDR's return is in question) to put up a monstrous DVC tower which will add more people while overcharging those on property and forcing others to less pricey digs off-site. Those off-site folks still arrive in droves and adding hotel rooms does not help an overcrowded park situation.

So, I ask again, what exactly are these mystery people eaters and unopened areas that are going to magically take care of the overcrowding Disney itself has created. I don't begin to have an answer, but I sure do not believe Disney does either--it is merely seeing $$$$ and will continue to add rooms and deny capacity issues for as long as it is able and we continue to support it.
 
Parades aren't back, nighttime shows are not all back, most character meet and greets are missing (and the ones that are there aren't the same/are missing photographers, although I believe this is now getting remedied), some shows are still gone (Nemo, Beauty and the Beast) and shows that are happening have reduced showtimes/are missing segments.

I love that removing the Luau is now a talking point. That was essentially am extremely low capacity, high priced restaurant. What does removing that impact at all, considering the thing replacing it will have dining and recreation options?
 
The bottom line is Disney is using park “reservations” to sound like we are reserving something in low supply as if they are operating at a capacity that’s reduced enough to matter.

In reality it’s literally their own tool (not a tool for guests) that helps them staff and purchase. Period. Point blank.

Reduced capacity can have many definitions mathematically from anything under what the fire department has set for capacity to less CMs working at park, but meanwhile guests could be filling most of the missing CM spots and as long as it’s not all the spots it’s generally “reduced” human bodies in the park right? Who knows what the definition is. Yet it’s a term that gets thrown around as often as the word “unprecedented” since COVID started.


So I understand why you’re confused!
 
Parades aren't back, nighttime shows are not all back, most character meet and greets are missing (and the ones that are there aren't the same/are missing photographers, although I believe this is now getting remedied), some shows are still gone (Nemo, Beauty and the Beast) and shows that are happening have reduced showtimes/are missing segments.

I love that removing the Luau is now a talking point. That was essentially am extremely low capacity, high priced restaurant. What does removing that impact at all, considering the thing replacing it will have dining and recreation options?

Beauty & The Beast is back--Nemo is not because Disney wanted to revamp it and held off recasting and reopening it. A Disney choice and more evidence that it was in no hurry to mitigate the overcrowding. Parades in MK (which is truly the only park where they were consistently) are back albeit in limited form but its night show is certainly booming. Again, how does any of that fall under the "people eater" category at Studios? Fantasmic! is the last piece to return there and it was, according to reports, being refurbished and would only have been a "people eater" at night--it would do nothing to mitigate the day crowds.

The Luau is not meant as a talking point (merely an example of another dinner show gone without replacement) BUT the new tower certainly should be. While the Luau may well be low capacity and overly priced (what at Disney is not high priced), the new tower may have a few dining options but it will surely not be a "people eater" it will be a crowd enhancer.

Point being Disney is certainly not doing much, if anything, to mitigate the overcrowding and elevate/enhance the guest experience.
 
We went back in late December. A couple of things are going on.

1. Park reservations are more about staffing to meet demand than anything else. Gone are the days of pure walk ons unless you are at the front of the rop dropping hordes. Dynamic staffing means if the park is not going to be as crowded on that day, (say a 3 or 4 out of 10) only half of a large capacity attraction will be running during slower times of the day and park hours will be curtailed. In the past the number of hours a park was open per day was less flexible so if you went in September or January you might encounter very low waits at a fully staffed park. The flip side of this, is if you travel during peak times, the crowds are more manageable since Disney is staffing up for the anticipated crowds and expanding hours.

2. There is still a labor shortage. All sorts of industries are struggling/ competing for workers. Workers are being more choosy and lower wage positions like custodial and other front line cast positions are not being filled.

3. FP+ vs Genie+ could be its own thing. If you haven't seen the defunctland video on what was wrong with FP+ for the average guest, you should watch it, its awesome:
In a nutshell: FP+ was great for Disney experts and people like us who are active on Disney message boards. It was terrible for the average, uninformed guest and the people that benefitted from it (us) did so at the expense of the once in a lifetime or occasional/ casual guest. FP+ became a monster that so much of ride capacity was allocated to, if you didn't know how to use FP+, you had very, very long waits for most major attractions without it. Genie+ severely limits the availability of the skip the line pass. Your wait will be much shorter in the average LL than it was in a FP+, the problem is you will likely get fewer Lightning Lane passes than you got Fastpasses and because you are paying for it, you will also be much less satisfied.

4. Disney lies about wait times to influence guest behavior. Also their way of estimating lines is inaccurate, partially because of the change from FP+ to Genie+/ LL and partially because they want you to buy Genie+ ILL.

We felt on our last trip, actual standby waits were more reasonable, but very inflated to scare people into not getting in line for certain attractions. As a rule of thumb, the more popular the ride, the more likely this is the case. Another factor is if the ride has a line on the shorter side that spills into the surrounding area, Disney will inflate that ride's wait time: BTMRR and Jungle Cruise are very guilty of this.

Bottom line: Don't buy Genie offsite except for MK, Dont buy it for onsite except for MK, DHS, and maybe Epcot.
 
I just got back and had a blast. Second trip during covid. Is it the same as it was? Not exactly, but I wasn't really expecting that. I also didn't feel like I had to go searching for a good time, it just happened.
I think this is an excellent description. We did Dec, Jan, and March, and ignored all the gloom and doom, and had a magical time. We got the chance to learn the pros and cons of G+ and ILL, and like it for some days and skipped for others. It's not exactly the same as before, but when has a trip ever been the same as previous trips?! It's constantly changing. People tend to filter out the bad stuff from 5, 10, 20 years ago. We had a really nice time, felt cast members were back into friendly magical form, and had some nice interactions with other guests. Not perfect - never is. Looking forward to our next trips.
 
Oh, yeah I forget to add, we had a great time!

The other thing I want to mention is it changed our entire park mentality. Before, the trick to hacking FP+ was to have as many days in the parks as possible so you could get as many FP+ as possible and build on your extra day advantage. Now if you are investing in Genie plus or a multi-day park ticket you want to be in the park a majority of the day. Its impossible to know what you will get with genie plus, and it gives you no option, its entirely based on the demand for the ride on that day, so its pretty pointless to buy it for a partial day. The multi-day park ticket discount is also reduced, so we found it better to take a whole days in the park or whole rest days, not "half days"
 
Bottom line: Don't buy Genie offsite except for MK, Dont buy it for onsite except for MK, DHS, and maybe Epcot.

I don't understand - onsite and offsite guests are identical for G+ purposes?

Now if you are investing in Genie plus or a multi-day park ticket you want to be in the park a majority of the day. Its impossible to know what you will get with genie plus, and it gives you no option, its entirely based on the demand for the ride on that day, so its pretty pointless to buy it for a partial day. The multi-day park ticket discount is also reduced, so we found it better to take a whole days in the park or whole rest days, not "half days"
I don't agree it's impossible to know what you'll get with G+. While there are things that are hard to predict (like what return time you'll end up with RotR if you book at 7AM) there are a lot of things that follow patterns, and with careful research you should have a pretty good idea what rides you'll be able to book for your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd picks. Also, I think you can get value from a partial day with G+. If you follow the stacking strategy you can build up multiple LL's without even being in the park for afternoon/evening for a wait-free experience. That's what we did for DHS when DW wanted to sleep in one morning. It could also be done on arrival day while traveling to Orlando. Likewise for AK on our last day. Our flight was at 4pm and we had a pretty good idea from research what LL's we could expect to get and use before we had to leave. I would say that G+ rewards flexibility. If you have multiple fixed commitments (eg ADR's) at different times it will cut down on your ability to capitalize on an LL opportunity. But it's not necessary to be in the park all day to do it.
 
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You know, I keep hearing this (bolded), but for the life of me I can't figure out what those may be? I'm not picking on you jbish because I see this all over these boards. What exactly are these "closed" people eaters and "other things" not available (EPCOT excluded because it is just a mess although its crowds are far more easily navigated).

For example, at Studios: B&TB, Indiana Jones, Frozen Sing Along all back as well as modified character visits and cavalcades. Does missing Fantasmic! at night really account for the massive crowds in the morning and early afternoon?

All valid points - and I really do agree with what you've written. You've really given a lot of examples of how the crowds are really there - there just are more people for sure. I guess my point was that there are still a few things that are either not available or limited in availability. For instance, just to stick with HS, Voyage of the Little Mermaid is closed and not coming back. Whatever your feelings on it, it did consume people throughout the day. Is Star Wars Launch Bay fully open? I don't even know - but again, just another place for bodies to be. I do agree that most of the shows are back and I'm sure that is helping a bit with crowds. And then I think there are indirect effects of the restaurants not being at full capacity. Are all of the HS TS restaurants at full capacity? (I know they're all fully booked as nothing is available the week we're there in April.) But, again, indirectly, not having something like Flying Fish operating every day means that's just one less place to go. I know there are others that aren't open every day.

Disney removes a Lauau (and HDDR's return is in question) to put up a monstrous DVC tower which will add more people while overcharging those on property and forcing others to less pricey digs off-site. Those off-site folks still arrive in droves and adding hotel rooms does not help an overcrowded park situation.
And herein lies the real problem - Disney is doing NOTHING to help relieve the crowd pressure. Building another hotel/DVC just to house more guests but give them NO new places to go? That is just short-sighted and feeds the narrative that they are just trying to get more squeeze more revenue out of the guests.
 

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