Covid And The Rest of Us

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In a recent poll, Canada was about 75% would get the vaccine, 11% unsure and 15% probably or definitely not.

For the UK, 53% would definitely get it, 20% would be fairly likely to get it and 16% wouldn't get it

I found an Australian article on a poll that said 56% would immediately get vaccinated, 35% would be vaccinated but not immediately and 10 % wouldn't get vaccinated.

I googled for Germany/EU and found this article: "In April, 74% of survey participants in Germany, the UK, Denmark, the Netherlands, Italy, France and Portugal said they would be willing to get vaccinated. By June, that number had dropped to 68%, researchers found"

To compares the the USA, to a recent poll there said that 65% would get it ad 35% wouldn't.



I wouldn't get a Russian certified vaccine, but as soon as Health Canada approves one, I would get it. (Well, once people in higher risk groups than me have the chance, I would get it)

M.
Thank you. Those figures are around what I’ve seen, too. I can understand some will be hesitant.
My family, relatives, and many friends are in either research or medical field. And, I, wouldn't even be the first to get a vaccine that went from R&D to commercial approval within one year, even if it was the US FDA approving it.

As a health care worker I suppose I will not have a choice, so I’m sure I’ll be getting it fairly soon after one becomes available.
 
In a recent poll, Canada was about 75% would get the vaccine, 11% unsure and 15% probably or definitely not.

For the UK, 53% would definitely get it, 20% would be fairly likely to get it and 16% wouldn't get it

I found an Australian article on a poll that said 56% would immediately get vaccinated, 35% would be vaccinated but not immediately and 10 % wouldn't get vaccinated.

I googled for Germany/EU and found this article: "In April, 74% of survey participants in Germany, the UK, Denmark, the Netherlands, Italy, France and Portugal said they would be willing to get vaccinated. By June, that number had dropped to 68%, researchers found"

To compares the the USA, to a recent poll there said that 65% would get it ad 35% wouldn't.



I wouldn't get a Russian certified vaccine, but as soon as Health Canada approves one, I would get it. (Well, once people in higher risk groups than me have the chance, I would get it)

M.
This is a survey from the local news station in Orlando. It’s from a few weeks ago.
B58914B0-303D-4020-B59B-9E0E66134000.png
 
In a recent poll, Canada was about 75% would get the vaccine, 11% unsure and 15% probably or definitely not.

For the UK, 53% would definitely get it, 20% would be fairly likely to get it and 16% wouldn't get it

I found an Australian article on a poll that said 56% would immediately get vaccinated, 35% would be vaccinated but not immediately and 10 % wouldn't get vaccinated.

I googled for Germany/EU and found this article: "In April, 74% of survey participants in Germany, the UK, Denmark, the Netherlands, Italy, France and Portugal said they would be willing to get vaccinated. By June, that number had dropped to 68%, researchers found"

To compares the the USA, to a recent poll there said that 65% would get it ad 35% wouldn't.



I wouldn't get a Russian certified vaccine, but as soon as Health Canada approves one, I would get it. (Well, once people in higher risk groups than me have the chance, I would get it)

M.


As a Canadian, I am in the wait and see camp when it comes to the vaccine. I am high risk, but I am also not supposed to get a bunch of vaccines. So, it will depend what's in it. I may have to rely on herd immunity and just cross my fingers. Also, I will continue to isolate as much as possible.
 


This is a survey from the local news station in Orlando. It’s from a few weeks ago.
View attachment 517697

I tried to use articles that discussed polls taken using traditional polling methods - and at that I know they vary based on the wording of the questions and the sample selection biases of the pollsters and are subject to changes of opinion over time. Online facebook pols like this one can't credibly be used to predict anything unfortunately.

M.
 
I invoked the ire of kiwis elsewhere for suggesting that in a few years or decades, Jacinda Ardern will not be seen as a hero of the pandemic.

Fiji, one of the poorest countries in the world, has begged to join the until now fictional 'trans Tasman travel bubble'. 40 percent of their income comes from tourism; 60 percent from NZ/Australia and most of the rest from the US. This is not an island paradise by any means. If tourists would ever venture outside their resort bubble, they would see the high levels of poverty. The soil is very poor, which is why there are no wonderful fruits and vegetables served in the resorts.

Schools and villages if they are lucky are 'sponsored' by a resort, meaning that there are 'tours' throughout the week of tourists who do want to do more than just enjoy the resort. In turn, the village head takes donations from the tourists, the women sell their trinkets, and schools show the supplies, buildings, uniforms, etc 'donated' by Americans, Australians, New Zealanders in hopes that more will choose to do the same.

So now what? The resorts closed. Ex-pats lost their jobs, so their personal staff did too. The resorts usually donated the food they had to the population, but that has run out. The fleet of helicopters that fly between the islands has been grounded. The pilots have returned to their native Czechia, etc. The main carrier was grounded. The crew if lucky returned to India (which grounded flights for months) The people who live on the beach next to some of the best resorts offering massages and horseback riding have no customers. 'Remittances' ie money sent from family overseas, has dried up as they lost their jobs in the UAE, etc.

Any COVID plan by wealthier nations which includes closing borders should in my opinion also address foreign aid and how we will deal with the impact our actions have on others. But leaders don't want to do that when they are busy going into national debt to provide services to their own people. Australia permitted 170 workers in to come pick fruit in the near future. The income they will earn as farm labourers is going to have a minimal impact on the starvation at home.

This is just another example of what I mean by our 'privilege'. We sit in fear of a disease which has not had a high death rate, and support decisions which will mean millions will starve this year. Most of those are 'unseen' because most people in privileged countries have not travelled there, or do not know them as people, just numbers.

There is a lack of balance of action vs threat in most of the world

How many cases of COVID in Fiji? 27. How many COVID deaths? 1. How many deaths will come from starvation? Unknown.
If you ever come to Texas, look me up. You seem like you would be a fascinating person to talk to.
I know I will get jumped for this but can you give me any of your sources for the information you have? I think sometimes we forget that there’s a great big world out there beyond our own countries.
 


They have published for NL where people got infected for the last 3 months
44% Direct family
20% Nursing home
16% At work
15% Other family members.

The nursing home infections are the remainder of the peak, there are hardly new cases coming from nursing homes
That leaves 5% for infection via undetermined community spread. I personally believe that's about right for Canada as well. The odds of contracting Covid from a random, brief encounter seem very low provided social distancing, hand-hygiene and now masking, is in place. One thing that has never been determined, or at least never been highly publicized, is definitive data on how or even if Covid is efficiently transferred from surfaces.
Prevalence of anti-vax activists has a lot of effect, but I ain't going down that rabbit hole.....

I think it's universal that more people tend to say they may not or won't get a vaccine when the question is merely academic. What the numbers are when the vaccines are actually available AND proof of vaccine is required for something that people want to do (travel, go to work, get their hair done, go to school, etc) may be quite different.

M.
I doubt we'll ever see the day that proof of vaccination is required for mundane activities like getting haircuts. School and travel perhaps, as those areas are overseen by bureaucracy and already has such requirements in place. Private enterprise would have a hard time vetting credentials which, inevitably would be prone to fakery by those who were so motivated.
I was contacted by three families that I know very well in Nigeria that the husbands lost their jobs at the start of the lockdown there. They were hungry and so I got some money to them. I now have to determine how to help them long term so they are able to provide for themselves. As best I can tell there haven’t been a large number of Covid deaths in Nigeria but the government imposed lockdown is a terrible burden on a population that is very poor and have very low savings to provide for a family during a long economy destroying lockdown. When fathers see children going hungry they are forced to take actions that would never be considered in normal circumstances.
I have been through local Ebola outbreaks and have never seen measures adopted that ensure a sizable portion of the population must deal with Insufficient food for their children. My viewpoint is that the world has become unhinged for some reason with a response that is much worse then the virus presents.
:scratchin Very sobering as we sit here in the midst of a very strong social safety net (relatively speaking). And here's something interesting to ponder: It feels like there are "gradients" of what a population will endure and the collective pathos of a nation is directly related to the historical realities of their situations. In brutal and deeply oppressive regimes such as the one you're describing, the idea of limiting mobility and having to wear a mask is not even a petty annoyance. Who among us in the western world would would knuckle under to having our children starve without full-on uprising? :sad1:
In a recent poll, Canada was about 75% would get the vaccine, 11% unsure and 15% probably or definitely not.
For the UK, 53% would definitely get it, 20% would be fairly likely to get it and 16% wouldn't get it
I found an Australian article on a poll that said 56% would immediately get vaccinated, 35% would be vaccinated but not immediately and 10 % wouldn't get vaccinated.
I googled for Germany/EU and found this article: "In April, 74% of survey participants in Germany, the UK, Denmark, the Netherlands, Italy, France and Portugal said they would be willing to get vaccinated. By June, that number had dropped to 68%, researchers found"
To compares the the USA, to a recent poll there said that 65% would get it ad 35% wouldn't.

I wouldn't get a Russian certified vaccine, but as soon as Health Canada approves one, I would get it. (Well, once people in higher risk groups than me have the chance, I would get it)

M.
I'd take a shot from Russia before one that comes out of China. And as it happens, that may not be an issue because China has blatantly flaunted agreements with Canada on a joint-venture vaccine and are now withholding supply from us. Double-dealt by China...what a shock. :sad2:
https://ipolitics.ca/2020/07/09/vac...-trials-in-canada-held-up-by-chinese-customs/
https://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-is-back-in-new-zealand-after-102-days-11597143065 Found this article for a bit of information, the reason stated for the lockdown is because they have no idea yet where the family would have contracted the virus after no cases in 102 days. Looking to see what they come up as I have been following how they were going to proceed as the only place with no known cases and are an island.
I think it's obvious that NZ, like every other place on the planet has continued to have asymptomatic carriers and undiagnosed cases. The virus was not eradicated, simply undetected, as I believe it is and will continue to be everywhere.
 
That leaves 5% for infection via undetermined community spread. I personally believe that's about right for Canada as well. The odds of contracting Covid from a random, brief encounter seem very low provided social distancing, hand-hygiene and now masking, is in place. One thing that has never been determined, or at least never been highly publicized, is definitive data on how or even if Covid is efficiently transferred from surfaces.

I didnt say undetermined, the last 5% is 0.3% church community, 0.4% school or day care etc. And other small percentages.
I will have a look at the originaliteit article of our cdc later. As it is unclear to me what percentage is really undetermined.
 
I didnt say undetermined, the last 5% is 0.3% church community, 0.4% school or day care etc. And other small percentages.
I will have a look at the originaliteit article of our cdc later. As it is unclear to me what percentage is really undetermined.
Excuse me for the assumption - listing 95% made it seem that way. Personally, I'd be skeptical of any claim that there are no cases of undetermined origin.
 
Thank you. Those figures are around what I’ve seen, too. I can understand some will be hesitant.


As a health care worker I suppose I will not have a choice, so I’m sure I’ll be getting it fairly soon after one becomes available.
I was contacted by three families that I know very well in Nigeria that the husbands lost their jobs at the start of the lockdown there. They were hungry and so I got some money to them. I now have to determine how to help them long term so they are able to provide for themselves. As best I can tell there haven’t been a large number of Covid deaths in Nigeria but the government imposed lockdown is a terrible burden on a population that is very poor and have very low savings to provide for a family during a long economy destroying lockdown. When fathers see children going hungry they are forced to take actions that would never be considered in normal circumstances.
I have been through local Ebola outbreaks and have never seen measures adopted that ensure a sizable portion of the population must deal with Insufficient food for their children. My viewpoint is that the world has become unhinged for some reason with a response that is much worse then the virus presents.
Yep. The "cure" is worse than the disease.
 
Who said only one neighbor was responsible? PP mentioned Australia and the US in the post you quoted. I did not take his post as a "laying blame" at ANY country, but just an example of what is happening.
I'm glad that my comment has provoked discussion. There are no easy answers, and while most of Europe has seemed to do well with opening up borders, etc, cases are rising (but not deaths)

I think one of the challenges is that even for non-Americans, the US situation is dominating everything. If I read news sites, message boards, etc almost every single news article about some other country has Americans joining to complain about their leadership, or their numbers. And pretty much every day my German news site has an article about the US. The reality is that the situation is very different in other places so we need to find a different path.

Tourism is considered 'soft aid', meaning that the money spent goes to the receiving country in the form of jobs and spending. NZ and Australia are no longer providing that 'soft aid' to countries, which gives them even more of an economic hit. In the case of the Pacific islands, there has been talk about a travel bubble for months, but no action. In order for that to occur, time is required to restart flights, schedule staff, open resorts, book a holiday, develop airport testing, etc. So even if this bubble gets announced by end of August (just a mythical date), it will take until well into October until any positive impact is felt. Do these countries have an obligation to increase aid to offset the lack of soft aid which results from their decision to lock borders? Will geopolitical instability increase if we continue to negatively impact poorer nations through our actions?

These are philosophical discussions, and is the reason why a degree in political science etc requires philosophy classes. Our leaders struggle with this when making decisions. The reality is that most eventually will have to consider the common good, and that means that there will always be people who do not benefit from the decision. Those who feel vulnerable still have the decision of staying indoors, and protecting themselves as much as possible. But decisions are not made based on the minority, for the most part.

I also wish that there were daily tickers for diagnoses and hospitalizations and deaths from other illnesses. I'm not sure if we have discussed the 'collateral damage' of delayed diagnosis and treatment and surgery for cancer, etc but we all know that it exists in our countries. I pulled the data recently for someone in my 'COVID and cancer' group to show her that in her region (not Germany, but one of the countries we have discussed), 30x more people die daily from cancer than from COVID. I know that the standard response is that cancer is not infectious, but that doesn't negate the fact that many of us are at more risk from other illnesses.
 
I was contacted by three families that I know very well in Nigeria that the husbands lost their jobs at the start of the lockdown there. They were hungry and so I got some money to them. I now have to determine how to help them long term so they are able to provide for themselves. As best I can tell there haven’t been a large number of Covid deaths in Nigeria but the government imposed lockdown is a terrible burden on a population that is very poor and have very low savings to provide for a family during a long economy destroying lockdown. When fathers see children going hungry they are forced to take actions that would never be considered in normal circumstances.
I have been through local Ebola outbreaks and have never seen measures adopted that ensure a sizable portion of the population must deal with Insufficient food for their children. My viewpoint is that the world has become unhinged for some reason with a response that is much worse then the virus presents.
It seems that we have some similar experiences. What worries me is that we are seeing the results only after a few months of shut down, and the economic impact will continue for years in these countries. How long will it take for the hoards of Chinese to return to Kenya and Tanzania for migration for instance? Even with countries like the Seychelles, Maldives, etc open, the number of people travelling there is low as the usual feeder markets are not or cannot travel right now. (And those are trips usually planned long in advance)
If you ever come to Texas, look me up. You seem like you would be a fascinating person to talk to.
I know I will get jumped for this but can you give me any of your sources for the information you have? I think sometimes we forget that there’s a great big world out there beyond our own countries.
You're very kind. I'm just an ordinary person, who was blessed to be able to travel in the last many years almost continuously. I didn't sleep much or stay still very much in those years. I definitely travel off the beaten path, and I talk to ordinary people. My circle of contacts is very broad and diverse, so I am able to hear different information than what appears in the daily news. I would rather sit in the dark and discuss the rapidly changing lifestyle of the Masai with a chief who has changed his views on the education of women, female mutilation, the end of the nomadic lifestyle, and polygamy than go to sleep or read a book. I've had the opportunity to meet people all over the globe where tourists rarely go, so that influences my thoughts as I know that we are here privileged by an accident of birth to be living in 'wealthy' countries.

My 'sources' tend to be my own experiences (I'm only discussing places I have been, and situations I have experienced), and the people I have met and the contacts I have made. I do find that Deutsche Welle does some excellent documentaries (in English too) about a lot of these areas, for anyone who may be interested in learning more. And of course the UN branches like UNICEF and UNHCR will highlight issues on their social media.
 
I'm glad that my comment has provoked discussion. There are no easy answers, and while most of Europe has seemed to do well with opening up borders, etc, cases are rising (but not deaths)

I think one of the challenges is that even for non-Americans, the US situation is dominating everything. If I read news sites, message boards, etc almost every single news article about some other country has Americans joining to complain about their leadership, or their numbers. And pretty much every day my German news site has an article about the US. The reality is that the situation is very different in other places so we need to find a different path.

Tourism is considered 'soft aid', meaning that the money spent goes to the receiving country in the form of jobs and spending. NZ and Australia are no longer providing that 'soft aid' to countries, which gives them even more of an economic hit. In the case of the Pacific islands, there has been talk about a travel bubble for months, but no action. In order for that to occur, time is required to restart flights, schedule staff, open resorts, book a holiday, develop airport testing, etc. So even if this bubble gets announced by end of August (just a mythical date), it will take until well into October until any positive impact is felt. Do these countries have an obligation to increase aid to offset the lack of soft aid which results from their decision to lock borders? Will geopolitical instability increase if we continue to negatively impact poorer nations through our actions?

These are philosophical discussions, and is the reason why a degree in political science etc requires philosophy classes. Our leaders struggle with this when making decisions. The reality is that most eventually will have to consider the common good, and that means that there will always be people who do not benefit from the decision. Those who feel vulnerable still have the decision of staying indoors, and protecting themselves as much as possible. But decisions are not made based on the minority, for the most part.

I also wish that there were daily tickers for diagnoses and hospitalizations and deaths from other illnesses. I'm not sure if we have discussed the 'collateral damage' of delayed diagnosis and treatment and surgery for cancer, etc but we all know that it exists in our countries. I pulled the data recently for someone in my 'COVID and cancer' group to show her that in her region (not Germany, but one of the countries we have discussed), 30x more people die daily from cancer than from COVID. I know that the standard response is that cancer is not infectious, but that doesn't negate the fact that many of us are at more risk from other illnesses.
I agree with a lot of what you have posted. No one knows really how to take the next step after getting their case numbers low. I honestly many countries are afraid to reopen borders in fear they will have to go back to where it all started.
 
I agree with a lot of what you have posted. No one knows really how to take the next step after getting their case numbers low. I honestly many countries are afraid to reopen borders in fear they will have to go back to where it all started.
Today there are all sorts of alarmist headlines about German cases being back to May number of daily cases. But hospitalizations and deaths have been flat for months, and are still flat. Average age of diagnosis is more than 20 years younger than before, so the same trend we see in Canada, most of Europe, etc ie younger people diagnosed, but deaths not increasing. Hot spots in food production, just like in other places.

Now they say that they also see cases in travellers returning from other places. Well, as I noted, every German airport now offers free, fast testing for returning travellers (even if not from a hot spot) If that is an option, I am sure many people are taking advantage of it so that may also result in higher cases of asymptomatic people.

Back in March we were all told to 'flatten the curve'. We did, and deaths are staying flat for the most part in a lot of countries. Yet it seems that the fear is being ramped up again and I'm not quite sure why if we are showing that we can control this even after opening restrictions and even opening borders. I suppose we will see in 2-3 weeks if deaths are also going to increase, but if hospitalizations are flat, and average age is lower, and there are more asymptomatic cases due to targeted testing (food production, airports), then I suspect that we may not see a rise in deaths.
 
Now they say that they also see cases in travellers returning from other places. Well, as I noted, every German airport now offers free, fast testing for returning travellers (even if not from a hot spot) If that is an option, I am sure many people are taking advantage of it so that may also result in higher cases of asymptomatic people.

Almost all the cases in Atlantic Canada since June have been travelers or their first-generation contacts. We do not have access to the kind of testing you do. From all I can tell though, the accuracy of that kind of testing is spotty. Is it actually relied on? From what I read online, travelers to Germany from hot spots are required to quarantine on entry but travelers from areas with low Covid infection rates are not. So am I correct that I would be able to enter Germany and not quarantine or test (unless the airline required it?)

Back in March we were all told to 'flatten the curve'. We did, and deaths are staying flat for the most part in a lot of countries. Yet it seems that the fear is being ramped up again and I'm not quite sure why if we are showing that we can control this even after opening restrictions and even opening borders. I suppose we will see in 2-3 weeks if deaths are also going to increase, but if hospitalizations are flat, and average age is lower, and there are more asymptomatic cases due to targeted testing (food production, airports), then I suspect that we may not see a rise in deaths.

When the case numbers for Florida and some of the other southern US states started to rise again in June/July, the argument was raised that that was okay because death rates hadn't also risen. Of course they did eventually once the diseases progressed to the point that you would expect to see rises in hospitalizations/deaths,but it appears it's not at as high a rated as with the the earlier outbreaks (although it's hard to tell when the data is so flawed.) Presumably this is due to younger/healthier people making up a larger proportion of the cases and to better treatment protocols developed from the earlier experience.


Excuse me for the assumption - listing 95% made it seem that way. Personally, I'd be skeptical of any claim that there are no cases of undetermined origin.

You can find information on Canadian cases here . The number of cases of undetermined origin is about 35% overall and seems to be increasing.

Information on exposure is available for 1 677 cases with illness onset in the week of 29 July to 4 August. Of these:
 19 cases (1%) reported having travelled outside of Canada during the exposure period;
 480 cases (29%) were due to exposure in Canada to a known COVID-19 case;
 830 cases (49%) were due to exposure in Canada to an unknown source;
 30 cases (2%) were due to exposure to a traveler; and
 318 cases (19%) have information on exposure pending.

Of the 115 269 cases with information on exposure provided:
 4 720 cases (4%) reported having travelled outside of Canada during the exposure period;
 63 109 cases (55%) reported exposure in Canada to a known COVID-19 case;
 40 443 cases (35%) reported exposure in Canada to an unknown source;
 961 cases (1%) reported exposure to someone who had travelled; and
 6 036 cases (5%) have information on exposure pending.

M.
 
Florida:
Cases are dropping. Higher counts are still down south in the Miami area.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/View attachment 517875
I wish your graphic included the column for number of tests. The percentage of positive results are something that's of interest to me. I looked at it quickly this morning via another source and it appears that Florida's rate of positive tests is about 8% while, for instance, the rate of positive tests here in Alberta where I live is about 1%. :confused3 I wonder why that is? Of course our population is exponentially smaller but the numbers are relative when you look at percentages instead of total numbers.
 
I wish your graphic included the column for number of tests. The percentage of positive results are something that's of interest to me. I looked at it quickly this morning via another source and it appears that Florida's rate of positive tests is about 8% while, for instance, the rate of positive tests here in Alberta where I live is about 1%. :confused3 I wonder why that is? Of course our population is exponentially smaller but the numbers are relative when you look at percentages instead of total numbers.
Click on the link and slide the graph over
B7229568-539F-425A-8AF6-AE9E456A3DC5.png
 
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