Covid And The Rest of Us

[MommyinHonduras]

You don't have to answer, of course, but may I ask how you ended up living in Honduras?

We came as missionaries to provide support to local pastors and we are foster parents to several kids so we are pretty permanent now.

 

[bavaria]

It sounds like something out of a movie, but I've know quite a few people who have gone to work different places overseas and lived in those closed compounds. In the Middle East especially, it's just a different kind of lock-down, I guess.

From my experiences globally, a secure compound is nothing like a pandemic lock down. One can go shopping, meet friends, go for dinner, go to the gym, and do anything really.

I'm not sure what you see as dangerous in the Middle East? With the exception of those (few) countries with active states of war, I find Islamic countries generally have a low rate of personal/petty crime due to the repercussions. I've had no issues or concerns with walking hours at night in Africa, or the Middle East, after doing a bit of research.

From a personal safety issue, the countries I have had more concerns about are certain small cities in Mexico, and parts of Central and South America. Poverty tends to result in increased petty crime and violence, unfortunately.

In Spain for example, the career petty criminals who target North American tourists are out of work. So are the refugees from north Africa who sell knockoff purses to tourists. That means that petty crime has increased as those on the margins cannot find food or work through conventional channels.

 

[Karin1984]

The Netherlands have put several regions on the 'orange list' which means: Strongly advised to quarantine for 14 days upon return and advised only travel when it's necessary.
Brussels, Paris, Marseille and area, Madrid and area, Balearic Islands (Mallorca/Ibiza), and the areas of Burgos, Salamanca, Almeria, Navarra.
Antwerp was already on the list.

I have a trip to Disneyland Paris (which is not excluded yet), via Brussels, in 3 weeks.
I am almost quarantined already, live alone, no family near, and work from home. I only go out for groceries and walks, and on my walks I only walk in quiet areas. So to continue this is not much of a sacrifice. I just do not look forward to people asking questions when I would post something on social media upon return, and argue how 'necessary' Disneyland Paris is. No, my life doesn't depend on it, but visiting DLP does wonders for my mental health.

3 weeks to go! And I'll decide depending on how the situation here and there develops.

 

[Weedy]

I just do not look forward to people asking questions when I would post something on social media upon return, and argue how 'necessary' Disneyland Paris is. No, my life doesn't depend on it, but visiting DLP does wonders for my mental health.

Just tell us on the Disboards about your trip. We’ll appreciate your need to go. Forgot about the rest of social media

 

[ronandannette]

From my experiences globally, a secure compound is nothing like a pandemic lock down. One can go shopping, meet friends, go for dinner, go to the gym, and do anything really.

I'm not sure what you see as dangerous in the Middle East? With the exception of those (few) countries with active states of war, I find Islamic countries generally have a low rate of personal/petty crime due to the repercussions. I've had no issues or concerns with walking hours at night in Africa, or the Middle East, after doing a bit of research.

From a personal safety issue, the countries I have had more concerns about are certain small cities in Mexico, and parts of Central and South America. Poverty tends to result in increased petty crime and violence, unfortunately.

In Spain for example, the career petty criminals who target North American tourists are out of work. So are the refugees from north Africa who sell knockoff purses to tourists. That means that petty crime has increased as those on the margins cannot find food or work through conventional channels.

Admittedly, I've got no personal experience; I've never lived outside Canada. Several friends have worked on-and-off in Saudi and were housed in walled compounds and their wives and daughters certainly didn't feel the kind of freedom they did here at home. Not necessarily because it was dangerous - more of a cultural thing. Friends that worked in the Sudan wouldn't have dreamed of taking their families with them. Maybe things have changed in the past 20 years.

 

[bavaria]

Admittedly, I've got no personal experience; I've never lived outside Canada. Several friends have worked on-and-off in Saudi and were housed in walled compounds and their wives and daughters certainly didn't feel the kind of freedom they did here at home. Not necessarily because it was dangerous - more of a cultural thing. Friends that worked in the Sudan wouldn't have dreamed of taking their families with them. Maybe things have changed in the past 20 years.

Saudi Arabia unfortunately has a very large population working and living in poverty (not the kingdom of billionaires we all imagine, similar to the UAE) For Sudan, I do think that it depends on the area. More likely it was the role of women which was a greater issue; in mosques for instance women get a lesser experience, but the same can be said for the kotel in Jerusalem. It's unfortunately a cultural issue, but not necessarily a safety one.

But I still maintain that living in a secure compound as an expat is generally far more open and free than a true COVID lockdown like in Melbourne currently, or what South Africa had. I know people who live in gated compounds in parts of Africa, and they could not do what they normally do, including buying cigarettes and alcohol, and 'non-essential' groceries.

 

[penn19]

We came as missionaries to provide support to local pastors and we are foster parents to several kids so we are pretty permanent now.

I love hearing stories like this. You and Bavaria and a few others. Just fascinating stories. And I think it it helps educate people who don’t/can’t live that life.

 

[ronandannette]

The Netherlands have put several regions on the 'orange list' which means: Strongly advised to quarantine for 14 days upon return and advised only travel when it's necessary.
Brussels, Paris, Marseille and area, Madrid and area, Balearic Islands (Mallorca/Ibiza), and the areas of Burgos, Salamanca, Almeria, Navarra.
Antwerp was already on the list.

I have a trip to Disneyland Paris (which is not excluded yet), via Brussels, in 3 weeks.
I am almost quarantined already, live alone, no family near, and work from home. I only go out for groceries and walks, and on my walks I only walk in quiet areas. So to continue this is not much of a sacrifice. I just do not look forward to people asking questions when I would post something on social media upon return, and argue how 'necessary' Disneyland Paris is. No, my life doesn't depend on it, but visiting DLP does wonders for my mental health.

3 weeks to go! And I'll decide depending on how the situation here and there develops.

If this is the case, I really can't see how you pose a risk to anyone but yourself (providing you don't actively have Covid when you travel of course). Is it people there in Holland that would disapprove of the trip or here on the (North American-slanted) DIS or other similar social media?

What is the general attitude where you are towards the current restrictions (whatever they may be specifically) and to travel?

P.S. We went to DLP for a single day upon arrival in Europe from Canada in 2017. I wish I could say it was amazing but we were so tired and physically numb from the 9 hour flight I honestly don't remember much of the experience at all.

 

[kimblebee]

I suspect that one of the reasons Canadian ships are allowed to go through American waters and the opposite is not allowed has to do with the amount of reports of US citizens not following our travel restrictions. I have read many articles and reports of US citizens being up here when they are not supposed to be but I must have missed all the ones about Canadians doing the same in the States.

I’m glad to see I’m not the only one who feels like this. No, we don’t want to be enemies, but for now, keep your citizens at home.

 

[ronandannette]

I’m glad to see I’m not the only one who feels like this. No, we don’t want to be enemies, but for now, keep your citizens at home.

I don't disagree with this at all, or with the border restrictions - but having a tour boat puttering through our waters is not really a threat.

 

[kimblebee]

I don't disagree with this at all, or with the border restrictions - but having a tour boat puttering through our waters is not really a threat.

Granted, if they follow the rules 100%, there’s no harm. Because we’ve seen the rules be broken already, I think we’re right to be weary.

 

[ronandannette]

Granted, if they follow the rules 100%, there’s no harm. Because we’ve seen the rules be broken already, I think we’re right to be weary.

I'm not really sure how they even could break the rules in this case. The boat tours are for sightseeing only and don't port anywhere. Just return trips, several hours in length, starting and ending at the tour operator's own facility in up-state New York.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Granted, if they follow the rules 100%, there’s no harm. Because we’ve seen the rules be broken already, I think we’re right to be weary.

Aren't Canadians breaking the rules though from a Canadian guideline? They are going on non-essential, leisure travel over into U.S. waters..the U.S is allowing it on a technicality (commercial vs recreational boat) but aren't Canadians supposed to not be doing leisure travel within the U.S.? (and apologies if I'm wrong on that). And that reason was the impression I got when the U.S. tour boat operator said in the article he didn't want to get Canadians in trouble; he just wanted to be able to do the same thing as they were able to do.

If that's okay then, then I don't see why U.S. citizens can't do the same. I mean unless you're going to tell me that it's okay for Canadians to travel into the U.S. because it's just the waters and not land to land..but if that were the case why, knowing Canadians are engaging in leisure activities within the boundaries of the U.S., would it not be okay for the exact same activity of water boundaries to be done with U.S. citizens doing it across Canadian water boundaries?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I love hearing stories like this. You and Bavaria and a few others. Just fascinating stories. And I think it it helps educate people who don’t/can’t live that life.

Very much agreed. Throughout the several threads it's been refreshing to see more worldly information given. We all can get stuck, including me, just looking at things through our lens not only from an area-specific view but also whatever country we have citizenship's view. Some of the things I've learned about it is just so darn interesting to me

 

[maddiel]

Aren't Canadians breaking the rules though from a Canadian guideline? They are going on non-essential, leisure travel over into U.S. waters..the U.S is allowing it on a technicality (commercial vs recreational boat) but aren't Canadians supposed to not be doing leisure travel within the U.S.? (and apologies if I'm wrong on that). And that reason was the impression I got when the U.S. tour boat operator said in the article he didn't want to get Canadians in trouble; he just wanted to be able to do the same thing as they were able to do.

If that's okay then, then I don't see why U.S. citizens can't do the same. I mean unless you're going to tell me that it's okay for Canadians to travel into the U.S. because it's just the waters and not land to land..but if that were the case why, knowing Canadians are engaging in leisure activities within the boundaries of the U.S., would it not be okay for the exact same activity of water boundaries to be done with U.S. citizens doing it across Canadian water boundaries?

I think you are confusing and conflating several different things here:

- Canada and the US agreed jointly to close the land border to non-essential travel.
- Canada has closed all it's other borders (sea and air) to non-Canadians. with exceptions for essential travel. The US has not closed their sea and air borders to Canadians.
- Canada has not limited it's citizens from traveling for non-essential reasons to the US.
- Canada gets to make the rules for entry to Canada. The US gets to make the rules for entry to the US. Often, the rules are similar. They are not always the same. In this case they are not.

M daughter lives close to the area where this is happening. I asked her about issues with boaters and she said that people are reporting frequent cases of Americans who are crossing over to the Canadian side by boat when they are aren't allowed to. It sounds like private boats are more of a problem than the tour boats. I might discount the stories. but stories about the US tourists visiting Banff enroute to Alaska were true and cases of US boaters traveling into Canadian waters in BC have also been documented., so I expect it's probably true.


M.

 

[ronandannette]

I think you are confusing and conflating several different things here:

- Canada and the US agreed jointly to close the land border to non-essential travel.
- Canada has closed all it's other borders (sea and air) to non-Canadians. with exceptions for essential travel. The US has not closed their sea and air borders to Canadians.
- Canada has not limited it's citizens from traveling for non-essential reasons to the US.
- Canada gets to make the rules for entry to Canada. The US gets to make the rules for entry to the US. Often, the rules are similar. They are not always the same. In this case they are not.

M daughter lives close to the area where this is happening. I asked her about issues with boaters and she said that people are reporting frequent cases of Americans who are crossing over to the Canadian side by boat when they are aren't allowed to. It sounds like private boats are more of a problem than the tour boats. I might discount the stories. but stories about the US tourists visiting Banff enroute to Alaska were true and cases of US boaters traveling into Canadian waters in BC have also been documented., so I expect it's probably true.


M.

I'm practically positive all the cases are private individuals flaunting the rules - certainly it was in the case of the Americans in Banff. I, for one, wasn't satisfied with them simply receiving fines and being allowed to go their way. I would have like to have had an example made by having their vehicles impounded and the travellers escorted back across the border and barred from re-entry. That treatment would also be appropriate for boaters - IMO. But this tour boat thing is entirely different - and since waivers are available, I totally think they should have one.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think you are confusing and conflating several different things here:

- Canada and the US agreed jointly to close the land border to non-essential travel.
- Canada has closed all it's other borders (sea and air) to non-Canadians. with exceptions for essential travel. The US has not closed their sea and air borders to Canadians.
- Canada has not limited it's citizens from traveling for non-essential reasons to the US.
- Canada gets to make the rules for entry to Canada. The US gets to make the rules for entry to the US. Often, the rules are similar. They are not always the same. In this case they are not.

M daughter lives close to the area where this is happening. I asked her about issues with boaters and she said that people are reporting frequent cases of Americans who are crossing over to the Canadian side by boat when they are aren't allowed to. It sounds like private boats are more of a problem than the tour boats. I might discount the stories. but stories about the US tourists visiting Banff enroute to Alaska were true and cases of US boaters traveling into Canadian waters in BC have also been documented., so I expect it's probably true.


M.

I'm not disagreeing with the bullet points you've laid out but I thought that on the Canadian website it said "avoid all non-essential travel outside of Canada" as a travel guidance. Are you prohibited? No because of the U.S. not considering a non-stop river crossing a border crossing but your country has advised you to avoid all non-essential travel outside of Canada. Maybe these Canadians on these tour boats don't consider a jaunt across the river where you're now in U.S. waters as non-essential travel (though it is in principle) or a risk for COVID spread unless it's coming from the people on the tour and I think that's in part what the U.S. tour boat companies' points are too.

I think me and the other poster aren't trying to tell either country what to do and we're not saying they aren't allowed to make their own rules (I have never said anything to the contrary ) We're just saying in this case as presented it's not making the most sense for the purposes of preventing spread of COVID (which was the reason given). It's a discussion neither one of us is actually in control here.

I'm aware of U.S. citizens going off exploring Canada rather than going to Alaska or flagrantly disobeying that, on the other thread about it I was against that too and commented as such. I may be American but I'm still able to criticize citizens of my own country.

That isn't the same issue here. Exploring Canada while under the guise of going to Alaska or not even under the guise of going to Alaska isn't the same parameters as what's being discussed. Private boats are being caught, per the article. I do actually agree with sending back across the border--it's probably something the U.S. could do for other countries so I don't see why Canada couldn't do it to us if caught. These seem to be workable to me to be a win-win. If the tour boats aren't operating now because it's not allowed, and they are being honest in that, they stand to lose so much more if they were allowed and yet broke the rules--it can be set up to be a high deterrent.

If anything I'm thinking this is in part an emotional response (and I've gotten that also from a few of the comments here and there) rather than a practical response to COVID as a situation. You don't have to allow ALL boat traffic in order to allow some, under strict allowances.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

but visiting DLP does wonders for my mental health.

This is off-topic for this thread but a local DISer here in my area she and her husband went to DLP last year and loved it. While quite different in her mind than WDW it was neat for a lot of it. She loved the castle and landscaping around it especially. They went to France to explore a few other places but spent at least a day at DLP (I can't remember if they did a few days or not).

I'd like to go to DLP and DisenySea&Tokyo Disneyland personally. My husband got to go to Kyoto about 6 years ago for business related travel. If we could have afforded me to go (his company was paying for his stuff) we would have. That would have been great to have taken a day at least to see the Disney parks there. Unfortunately even if we did want to spend $$$ to get there it's going to be a long long time before we could even think about going at this rate (and I'm not looking to travel international anytime soon anyways).

 

[maddiel]

If that's okay then, then I don't see why U.S. citizens can't do the same. I mean unless you're going to tell me that it's okay for Canadians to travel into the U.S. because it's just the waters and not land to land..but if that were the case why, knowing Canadians are engaging in leisure activities within the boundaries of the U.S., would it not be okay for the exact same activity of water boundaries to be done with U.S. citizens doing it across Canadian water boundaries?

I just pointed out that this exact fact is true: The land and the water agreements between the two countries are different. right now as far as Canadians entering the US.

I'm not disagreeing with the bullet points you've laid out but I thought that on the Canadian website it said "avoid all non-essential travel outside of Canada" as a travel guidance. Are you prohibited? No because of the U.S. not considering a non-stop river crossing a border crossing but your country has advised you to avoid all non-essential travel outside of Canada. Maybe these Canadians on these tour boats don't consider a jaunt across the river where you're now in U.S. waters as non-essential travel (though it is in principle) or a risk for COVID spread unless it's coming from the people on the tour and I think that's in part what the U.S. tour boat companies' points are too.

There are often advisories that citizens of one country don't travel to another country. They do not carry the same weight as prohibitions.

I suspect the Canadian officials are being particularly strict because it isn't always easy to tell what boats are private and what boats are tour boats and they are cracking down on all US boats on their side of the boarder because it's the easiest way to stop the boats that are making illegal landings. But no matter why, it is their right to stop boats that are illegally entering the country.

If I were a CBSA officer, I would tell the Canadian boat operators to knock off crossing the boarder into the US unless they wanted to run the risk of having all their passengers have to quarantine if they were found to be on the wrong side of the border.

If anything I'm thinking this is in part an emotional response (and I've gotten that also from a few of the comments here and there) rather than a practical response to COVID as a situation. You don't have to allow ALL boat traffic in order to allow some, under strict allowances.

TBH, having a patchwork of special circumstances sounds like a bureaucratic nightmare to manage for no real benefit. But maybe that's just my emotional response?

M.

 

[Skywalker]

I'm not really sure how they even could break the rules in this case. The boat tours are for sightseeing only and don't port anywhere. Just return trips, several hours in length, starting and ending at the tour operator's own facility in up-state New York.

For a three-hour tour?