Current owners: Do you feel that renters are impacting resort availability?

[Dyefrog]

I find this issue very similar to walking reservations.

Not technically against the rules, but not the way the product was intended to be used.

I see walking reservations as a necessary tool to stand any chance of getting popular reservations. As mentioned earlier, as personal renters, we are at a disadvantage to commercial enterprises that have more robust and sophisticated advantages that make it nearly impossible to compete. As @BeachClub2014 mentioned above, it's completely fair if we all have the same opportunities. If I could have access to the same tools the professionals have, I wouldn't complain but not being tech savvy, I have no idea how to access them. If there is a subscription or fee, the once or twice a year DVC owner can't justify it.

My response though was about availability and not commercial renting.

If renting was completely banned, I don’t think people would see any meaningful change in room availability for the rooms that people really take issue with seeing being offered.

But, you are correct that we all get to be okay with our opinions and I get that it matters to some who was able to get the room.

I would love to see if you are correct but I'm not convinced. We will never know but I see this as similar to Wall Street traders having the edge over retail investors using sophisticated real time trading advantages where even a millisecond gives them an edge. I'm a more recent DVC owner so still wet behind the ears but I doubt the original intent of DVC anticipated this “problem”.

 

[tjkraz]

High end spec renters know all of the workarounds. They know all of the loopholes. Some likely have tools which boost their success above and beyond any run-of-the-mill member. 5000 points in the hands of a spec renter are being targeted at things like AKV Value and BWV standard studios.

Take those same 5000 points out of the hands of the spec renter, and they're not being used entirely for AKV Value and BWV Standard. Average Joe hoping to book those rooms for their *vacation* immediately has a greater chance for success.

This isn't about getting to a place where December BWV Standard View studios are still available 9 months out. It's about the idea that right now, (hypothetically) there may be a 5% chance of booking BWV Standard in early December, in part because a highly educated, manipulative group is grabbing the rest of the availability. Without those spec rentals, perhaps that success rate rises to 10% or 15% or 20%. In my mind, that's a win.

There is also evidence suggesting that some spec renters are holding rooms right up to 31 days before arrival, at which point they dump the reservation and use the points for something else. Problem is that room cancelled 31 days out is almost useless to DVC members who tend to be longer-term planners. The room could even get rolled over to CRO as breakage. (Some rooms may even get held longer than that, because people have learned to play games with points that get put in the Holding account.)

OP: I think the key to success is flexible expectations. If you expect to frequently vacation the same dates / resort / room type every year, consider a Fixed Week purchase if available. If you're of the mind that you'll spend years rotating between different dates and resorts, you'll find a match far more often than not. Even as a resort owner, you're not going to get a Value or Standard room every single time at 11 months. You're not going to always get a Rivera Tower Studio. You're not going to get Beach Club reliably at 7 months. But if you're open to a variety of other destinations--including the likes of Saratoga, Old Key West and Animal Kingdom Villas when booking late or during the absolute highest demand times of the year--you will probably be satisfied.

 

[CarolMN]

My comments have all been directed at availability, as well. I haven't suggested a ban on renting so not sure if your reference to such was intended for me. I do not think renting should be banned.

The issue for me is rental brokers using web tools to snag access to premium rooms at premiums times. Doing so tilts the playing in their favor and disadvantages the average owner. If you and others are fine with that, then cool. I am not.

High end spec renters know all of the workarounds. They know all of the loopholes. Some likely have tools which boost their success above and beyond any run-of-the-mill member. 5000 points in the hands of a spec renter are being targeted at things like AKV Value and BWV standard studios.

Take those same 5000 points out of the hands of the spec renter, and they're not being used entirely for AKV Value and BWV Standard. Average Joe hoping to book those rooms for their *vacation* immediately has a greater chance for success.

This isn't about getting to a place where December BWV Standard View studios are still available 9 months out. It's about the idea that right now, (hypothetically) there may be a 5% chance of booking BWV Standard in early December, in part because a highly educated, manipulative group is grabbing the rest of the availability. Without those spec rentals, perhaps that success rate rises to 10% or 15% or 20%. In my mind, that's a win.

There is also evidence suggesting that some spec renters are holding rooms right up to 31 days before arrival, at which point they dump the reservation and use the points for something else. Problem is that room cancelled 31 days out is almost useless to DVC members who tend to be longer-term planners. The room could even get rolled over to CRO as breakage. (Some rooms may even get held longer than that, because people have learned to play games with points that get put in the Holding account.)

Agree! I'm OK with renting, but would applaud Disney taking some type of action to prevent this type of spec renting. Just don't know what it might be. Perhaps some type of software that blocks scripts? Perhaps better enforcement of the maximum number of points a Member may own (including as a trustee)?

 

[lowlight]

My comments have all been directed at availability, as well. I haven't suggested a ban on renting so not sure if your reference to such was intended for me. I do not think renting should be banned.

The issue for me is rental brokers using web tools to snag access to premium rooms at premiums times. Doing so tilts the playing in their favor and disadvantages the average owner. If you and others are fine with that, then cool. I am not.

It’s not only the bots, it’s certain rental market agents explicitly directing owners to book specific hard to get rooms at specific hard to get resorts at specific busy times of the year. The agent then lists the spec rental for more than they normally do (say up to 28 a point, but I’ve seen more). That isn’t natural demand for a room, it’s an inorganic force putting pressure on an already overwhelmed system. Of course if it doesn’t affect you, you don’t care.

 

[kanerf]

You are not kidding, we had the easiest adr experience we’ve ever had booking for memorial day week, even got the recently reopened 1900 park fare super easy.

Yup, I reserved 1900 Park Fare also.

 

[DVC Doctor]

My comments have all been directed at availability, as well. I haven't suggested a ban on renting so not sure if your reference to such was intended for me. I do not think renting should be banned.

The issue for me is rental brokers using web tools to snag access to premium rooms at premiums times. Doing so tilts the playing in their favor and disadvantages the average owner. If you and others are fine with that, then cool. I am not.

I also 100% agree with this statement and I have been a DVC member for 20 years.

 

[DougEMG]

I'm interested in purchasing DVC. I live local and prefer weekend staycations, so don't care much about getting an entire week at any particular resort. I suppose I would fall into the "sleep around points" group.

I've noticed on several Facebook groups, a number of DVC members are renting a (seemingly) bizarre number of confirmed reservations, all for popular weeks (Memorial Day, 4th of July, RunDisney, etc.). Is it possible that they legitimately reserved those weeks, and no longer need the reservation? Sure. But it just seems like many of these DVC owners are "playing" travel agent with their membership and reserving the most popular weeks, with the intention of renting the points. Examples below.

The last thing I want is to be battling with these people for particular dates and stressing over my bookings. So, my question for current DVC owners is whether or not this is a concern for you, or something Disney is aware of and plans on putting an end to.

Mod deleted actual rentals. We do not allow those to be posted.

SAP points generally mean you are happy staying wherever you can get. So if highly popular rooms are being booked up by members using the rooms themselves or by members renting the rooms out that should not make any difference to someone buying SAP points.

The main thing that will determine if the room you want is available is (1) how many of that room type there are, (2) how early in advance you book and (3) what time of year you go.

If you plan to book only a month or 2 out, then be prepared to stay at the larger resorts in 1 bedrooms a lot of the time. And renters are not going to be impacting your booking at all in that case.

 

[lowlight]

I also 100% agree with this statement and I have been a DVC member for 20 years.

The question is, how do we force DVD/DVCMC to care? Aren’t they supposed to (hah) protect member interests?

 

[DVC Doctor]

The question is, how do we force DVD/DVCMC to care? Aren’t they supposed to (hah) protect member interests?

Well, I am not sure they care, but they should. Disney is more about protecting their own interests over anyone else.

IF some members are using software BOTS to log into their account and keep refreshing for available rooms at the exact second of 11 month availability (and yes, I assume those tools are available), then Disney should create some alternative form of two factor verification that would be designed to slow down or eliminate the software bots from having a competitive advantage over a regular member using the DVC website.

 

[Jillpie]

Yes, it is really annoying me. As a 21 year owner of BCV, I have prided myself in always being able to get October at the 11 month window. Never ever having a problem. Until this past year. I was shocked. Logged in and could get nothing for this coming Fall. First time ever. Disney will never do anything, unless it hurts their bottom line. They just don't care enough, and that pisses me off.

 

[eandt]

You are clearly an active DISboard member, so I think your concerns are valid. My opinion is YES, these spec rentals are negatively impacting any DVC member that wants to book a popular week as the pros are aggressively going after the most in demand weeks at popular resorts and spec renting for maximal profit. As someone posted, nobody is getting too worked up over SSR or OKW studios, but any value room, BCV, BWV, Poly, etc are getting harder harder to book, even at the 11 month opening.

The issue for me is the spec rentals as someone (or many people) are strategically booking the most in demand weeks like Christmas, or July 4 or Thanksgiving and booking the cheapest option like value rooms and then renting them for maximum they can (like well over $20pp) and technically this is allowed, but rather sleezy to me (in my opinion). Where if they simply booked rooms on request, rather than spec rental, that would be more equitable to everyone. But again, they are gaming the system for maximal profit and that technically is allowed.

However, my concern with your post is that you are local and looking for sleep around points, and prefer weekend trips and unless you are booking at 11 months out, you are not battling anyone. The challenge for you as a local, is that you may want to book last minute trips with short booking windows and will probably be disappointed if you want studios at popular resorts as those book up during the 8-11 month booking window. If you buy DVC at a specific location like BLT, then you will have maximum opportunity to reserve 11 months out, but you may or may not do that.

Remember at 7 months before your checkin date - ALL DVC points are equal and the most popular or smallest resorts sellout around that time.

Never rented from a ‘commercial’ renting site but what’s to stop an owner from purchasing a rental they desire once in a while and then renting their own points to cover the cost? Do rental companies have some kind of advantage over an actual owner to get these coveted rooms? If not what is the issue?

 

[Brian Noble]

Commercial renters focus on the rooms that combine the highest margin with the lowest "out the door" price. Those tend to be studios in the lowest view categories at a handful of resorts. But, those rooms tended to go first anyway, and were IMO always a bit of a crapshoot.

If you are truly okay with sleep-around points, the presence of commercial renters is not particularly a problem. That's because you are not booking things at 11 months (or possibly even right at 7) and so those highest-demand rooms weren't an option for you in the first place.

If, on the other hand, you were buying specifically for one particular low-point studio type, I'd tell you to reconsider. But I would tell you that whether commercial renting wasn't a thing---it's worse with them, but it was never good without them.

 

[lowlight]

Do rental companies have some kind of advantage over an actual owner to get these coveted rooms? If not what is the issue?

Unequivocally, yes. Not even accounting for the automated scripts they are likely using, if they have 100 owners looking to rent with their site a month, they have 99 more chances of getting that hard to get room, as they pretty much tell you what room and date they want you to book and it’s always the most valuable (rarest) ones.

 

[Sandisw]

Unequivocally, yes. Not even accounting for the automated scripts they are likely using, if they have 100 owners looking to rent with their site a month, they have 99 more chances of getting that hard to get room, as they pretty much tell you what room and date they want you to book and it’s always the most valuable (rarest) ones.

In your example, though it’s 100 owners each booking one rental…so you have to look at those transactions as indivual.

Sure, the broker makes a profit off each one, but if every one of those rooms is booked by a different owner, that’s a different situation than those one membership that are being used for multiple hard to get rooms.

If one of the issues is, whether renting or not, is using an automated script to grab rooms, then I do think that DVC could institute something to prevent any owner from doing that, like a captcha or other verification method, like a code each time.

 

[lowlight]

In your example, though it’s 100 owners each booking one rental…so you have to look at those transactions as indivual.

Sure, the broker makes a profit off each one, but if every one of those rooms is booked by a different owner, that’s a different situation than those one membership that are being used for multiple hard to get rooms.

Right, but the question was, does commercial spec renting affect availability of hard to get rooms. In my example, those 100 owners that are being directed towards the subset of hard to get rooms would not ordinarily all be booking those at their own behest. Maybe a few would, but not 100. The commercial renting company is introducing inorganic demand to the system by requesting those 100 owners target those rooms specifically. Yes, those rooms would be booked quickly regardless, but the extra pressure from the rental company caused the “cup” to fill up more quickly than it otherwise would.

 

[DVC Doctor]

Right, but the question was, does commercial spec renting affect availability of hard to get rooms.

My simple opinion, and 20 year DVC experience, is......YES!!!!

 

[Bearval]

I'm interested in purchasing DVC. I live local and prefer weekend staycations, so don't care much about getting an entire week at any particular resort. I suppose I would fall into the "sleep around points" group.

I've noticed on several Facebook groups, a number of DVC members are renting a (seemingly) bizarre number of confirmed reservations, all for popular weeks (Memorial Day, 4th of July, RunDisney, etc.). Is it possible that they legitimately reserved those weeks, and no longer need the reservation? Sure. But it just seems like many of these DVC owners are "playing" travel agent with their membership and reserving the most popular weeks, with the intention of renting the points. Examples below.

The last thing I want is to be battling with these people for particular dates and stressing over my bookings. So, my question for current DVC owners is whether or not this is a concern for you, or something Disney is aware of and plans on putting an end to.

Mod deleted actual rentals. We do not allow those to be posted.

Absolutely they are. If you have 100 DVC owners trying to walk/book the same 10 rooms for their own personal use you have a theoretical 10% chance of starting your walk or booking that room. Add 100 additional DVC members trying to walk/book those same 10 rooms but not for personal use but to rent you now only have a 5% chance for that room.

 

[jimmymc]

I don't think so. In-demand times will always be hard to book for DVC, meanwhile late July has wide-open availability this summer. I think how people travel to Disney has changed, with more emphasis on special events and holidays and less on typical summer travel weeks.

 

[karrit2000]

The people renting points aren't the problem. It's the DVC owners who book high demand dates & accommodations to sell to renters that are the problem. I get that things happen and sometimes a member may need to sell their reservation due to unexpected circumstances. But there is a subset of owners who have turned their ownerships into a money making scheme by selling their points rather than using them for personal trips. One would think that DVC would exercise their rights to shut some of these people down but these "owners" are always one step ahead and are able to skirt the rules. I've owned for almost 30 years and never once have I rented out or bought someone else's points. I have a bit under 500 points at 3 different resorts. I honestly don't get why anyone needs over 1000 points for personal use. Once I'm done using mine I'll sell my contracts rather than try renting out since it's not worth the hassle to me.

 

[Sandisw]

The people renting points aren't the problem. It's the DVC owners who book high demand dates & accommodations to sell to renters that are the problem. I get that things happen and sometimes a member may need to sell their reservation due to unexpected circumstances. But there is a subset of owners who have turned their ownerships into a money making scheme by selling their points rather than using them for personal trips. One would think that DVC would exercise their rights to shut some of these people down but these "owners" are always one step ahead and are able to skirt the rules. I've owned for almost 30 years and never once have I rented out or bought someone else's points. I have a bit under 500 points at 3 different resorts. I honestly don't get why anyone needs over 1000 points for personal use. Once I'm done using mine I'll sell my contracts rather than try renting out since it's not worth the hassle to me.

Off topic, but I have 900 and it’s not enough because I go 4 to 6 times a year and prefer 1 bedrooms or higher.!! Lol

I do not rent other than to friends on the occasional basis, though have done a few rentals and transfers over the years.

But, DVC has all it needs to enforce the rules and one thing none of us know, unless it applies to us or someone we know, we don’t know exaclty what they have done or are doing behind the scenes.