Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

I have two rentals coming up just at the end of my use year. Does anyone know if the contract forbids us talking to the renter? I can't see anything in the agreement to say so. Surely if it doesn't say anything we can just contact them and have a conversation. I feel stuck between a rock and hard place at the moment.
If I were you, I wouldn't worry about the contract. Do what you feel right doing. All bets are off IMO in relationship to the broker agreement. IMO, a broker in a different country is not going to bring you to court. But, that's just my opinion, you have to follow your heart.
 
David's DVC is most likely set up as an LLC which means only the company assets are at risk (none of the owners property can be seized or taken to repay debt) , since this company does not manufacture any product and most likely only consists of employees, leased office space and equipment the only real asset of any value would be David's Goodwill. Right now his company is trying to maneuver thru this to save the goodwill since if it declares bankruptcy they will have to start from scratch and build the business back up which has taken them years to get to where they are now.
Although if they are stating 2000+ rentals have already been affected and this goes on for another 2 months we could be looking at 5000+ rentals. If they were for an average of $3000 each we are looking at $15,000,000. If 40% of that has already been payed to owners we are talking $9 Million still in their possession. If 50% of that can be rebooked through cash bookings for a new (or existing but different) company, they get their commission on that and then could claim additional monies owed to a different LLC by ramping up their debt from another company. The above is all fictional and could be on the very high end, I'm just trying to illustrate the amount of money that could be in play here.
 
Please cite the law which states that "double dipping is illegal".

You won't find one that covers this situation, not even under consumer protection law. Why is that? Because the owner's agreement with David's (a corporation) requires the owner to do specific tasks, which they did. The risk is upon David's to monetize the resulting reservation. If David's cannot monetize the reservation under the terms of the contract, David's takes the loss. While consumers are generally protected against paying something for nothing, corporations are not.

You also seem to be under the belief that the owner and renter have a contract that excludes David's and supersedes the agreements in place between them and David's. That is not the case. You need to look at all 3 contracts to understand why David's is actually responsible to both parties, but neither the owner nor renter have a responsibility to each other beyond the owner not cancelling the reservation made (which no one can argue is the case in this situation).

You've convinced me! The owner fulfilled their obligations, the issues with the renters not being able to obtain what they paid for is for resolution between David's and the renter.
 


Although if they are stating 2000+ rentals have already been affected and this goes on for another 2 months we could be looking at 5000+ rentals. If they were for an average of $3000 each we are looking at $15,000,000. If 40% of that has already been payed to owners we are talking $9 Million still in their possession. If 50% of that can be rebooked through cash bookings for a new (or existing but different) company, they get their commission on that and then could claim additional monies owed to a different LLC by ramping up their debt from another company. The above is all fictional and could be on the very high end, I'm just trying to illustrate the amount of money that could be in play here.
This doesn't take into account reservations that are not affected and still paid in full for other months. This broker has literally millions of dollars at their disposal. This unwillingness to "take a loss" is just ridiculous. Obviously no one wants to lose money, but anyone and everyone in the travel industry is losing money.
 
I have two rentals coming up just at the end of my use year. Does anyone know if the contract forbids us talking to the renter? I can't see anything in the agreement to say so. Surely if it doesn't say anything we can just contact them and have a conversation. I feel stuck between a rock and hard place at the moment.
Personally if I were you I would start by contacting the rental company first, explain the situation, ask what would happen if I cancelled and what would happen (i.e, would you receive your 30%) if I didn't and Disney ends up being closed.

If they didn't respond in a few days (or gave an answer that didn't make sense based on your use year) then I would make a decision on contacting the renter.
 
My contract says the owner is to provide me with a reservation with arrival on date x and departure on date y. Explain to me how you think the owner has done the task of providing me with that if I am unable to check in on arrival date, have no reservation for the length of stay, and have no reservation on the departure date.

Again I am absolutely not saying this is the owners, David's (I am actually not with David's, if I was I would be happy right now because I know I at least may have a chance at a new reservation without having to jump through hoops), or my fault. I am not blaming anyone. I think everyone is entitled to something and unfortunately may lose something. But back to my point - making the assumption that you're an owner and can walk away may not be the correct assumption.

This thread is about David's, not whatever broker you are using. David's uses 3 contracts:

David's-Owner: This is clear that David's has no wiggle room on the remaining payment.

David's-Renter: This is clear that they intend to rent a non-refundable, non-changeable reservation.

David's-Owner-Renter: This is clear that the Owner is paid if they do not cancel the reservation. This is clear that the Renter is renting a reservation that is non-refundable and non-changeable.

The issue with the David's-Renter and David's-Owner-Renter contracts is that they could breach some consumer protection laws in the event of a resort closure. i.e., the Renter gets no reservation and no refund. David's has introduced a voucher system to reimburse the Renter's loss in order to address that shortcoming.
 


Personally if I were you I would start by contacting the rental company first, explain the situation, ask what would happen if I cancelled and what would happen (i.e, would you receive your 30%) if I didn't and Disney ends up being closed.

If they didn't respond in a few days (or gave an answer that didn't make sense based on your use year) then I would make a decision on contacting the renter.

Thanks, yes that is what I am currently doing trying to ensure that I have it in writing what is going to happen. Just wondered if I had missed anything in the contract that stopped me having a conversation. Much rather refund but only if the renter gets the refund. I have used Davids for years don't want him to go under, but it is important that the owner and renter have a chance to sort it out. I know I will lose something but better that than it all. I have asked them to check with the renters and see what they want to do. Would love a copy of that email, but I have started the process early enough to ensure that something gets done. I am persistent and won't give up once I get started on something, determined to find a solution.
 
I have a friend that rented through David's, but her reservation is in December. Here was her thinking on contacting the owner directly:

Her thought on looking up the owner using public records (and they have a very unique name) is that if David's folds she plans to offer the owners the additional 30% that the broker was not able to pay out. Yes, she paid the broker in full, but she figures paying the owner directly the 30% they didn't get paid from the broker is less money than a new rental or a hotel room.

The broker's goal is keep owners and renters separate to protect their base of DVC owners. The last thing a broker wants is for renters to find a decent/reliable owner and bypass their services.
As an owner with multiple active reservations with David's stretching through October, I would love being contacted by the renter and work out such a plan - but only if David is bankrupt, or in default of a previous contract. The additional 30% due the owner is actually only an additional 23% payable by the renter, since David takes a $4.50 per point. An even fairer system is for the renter to only pay ~11.5% extra (or ~$2.20 per point) - this would in effect share the loss caused by David's bankruptcy between the owner and renter.
 
I follow these thread pretty closely. Just some info that i just found out from my credit card that might be helpful.

I spoke to Chase Visa about charge backs for an upcoming trip i have in May.

First.. I am not able to file the charge back until the trip is officially cancelled by Davids.

Second.. If you are unhappy with the voucher idea you can still file a charge back.

Third.. If you take the voucher option and reschedule for say, November, and Davids goes bankrupt in June you can still file for a charge back and most likely get your money back.
 
This doesn't take into account reservations that are not affected and still paid in full for other months. This broker has literally millions of dollars at their disposal. This unwillingness to "take a loss" is just ridiculous. Obviously no one wants to lose money, but anyone and everyone in the travel industry is losing money.
I would not expect David to have millions of dollars at his disposal. His $4.50 cut has most likely already been spent on business expenses (including wages to his staff) and dividends to the owners. The only cash he has is the 30% due to the owners, but this is offset by the liability of making these payments once check-ins resume at the DVC resorts. Depending on how long the resort closure continues and the success rate of credit card chargebacks, it may be in David's best interest to declare bankruptcy and move on - there is no alternative once the chargeback amount exceeds the 30% held in reserve, he would just be out of cash.

I don't know how each travel insurance policy works, but on my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, which I am using to charge travel expenses, there is an explicit coverage for travel interruption due to airline or travel agent insolvency. With such a clause, there should be much easier for renters to pursue a successful recovery of their expense. Hence I am beginning to wonder whether a sooner rather than later David's bankruptcy would not be best for everyone involved.
 
I follow these thread pretty closely. Just some info that i just found out from my credit card that might be helpful.

I spoke to Chase Visa about charge backs for an upcoming trip i have in May.

First.. I am not able to file the charge back until the trip is officially cancelled by Davids.

Second.. If you are unhappy with the voucher idea you can still file a charge back.

Third.. If you take the voucher option and reschedule for say, November, and Davids goes bankrupt in June you can still file for a charge back and most likely get your money back.
This is great to know - thank you so much for sharing!
 
I follow these thread pretty closely. Just some info that i just found out from my credit card that might be helpful.

I spoke to Chase Visa about charge backs for an upcoming trip i have in May.

First.. I am not able to file the charge back until the trip is officially cancelled by Davids.

Second.. If you are unhappy with the voucher idea you can still file a charge back.

Third.. If you take the voucher option and reschedule for say, November, and Davids goes bankrupt in June you can still file for a charge back and most likely get your money back.
This is wonderful information, thank you for sharing!

I used my Chase Sapphire card so I'll definitely be keeping this in mind if my reservation gets cancelled.

I feel like it may be better to just do the charge back instead of accepting the voucher? I don't know.
 
This is wonderful information, thank you for sharing!

I used my Chase Sapphire card so I'll definitely be keeping this in mind if my reservation gets cancelled.

I feel like it may be better to just do the charge back instead of accepting the voucher? I don't know.
Thats how i feel. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned that if Davids offers you the voucher maybe the credit card company wouldnt help you with a charge back. However, the lady specifically said that if its not your original trip that you booked you have the right do file a dispute. So once my date comes I think that is what i will do and they just booked with Disney.
 
We ended up with points we could not use after a resale purchase, so we decided to rent them. I decided to rent thru David's because I liked the "no refunds". I was nervous that if I rented them out myself and someone who didn't understand the rules on DVC points asked to reschedule or cancel a reservation (which I would have no problem doing if it was possible) and I couldn't help them because of point expiration or availability issues I would feel so bad. I would have a hard time not helping someone but I would also not want to be screwed either. I felt using David's shielded me from that! I thought I would be able to just imagine the wonderful vacation I helped the happy renter have and not worry about it because if a problem had come up for the renter I never would have known about it.
Then this happened! What a crazy situation!

One of our rentals is caught up in this whole mess (it was for March 15th - 17th, I did reschedule them even though I didn't have to since the resort was open but since DVC helped me out by putting my points back into the 2020 UY - I was able to help them out). Thankfully the other one was completed in January. I hope the resort is open for the new dates because I would like to be done with this process! I definitely learned that if I ever find us in the position with points we can't use again and we decide to rent them I will do it myself. I learned that just because I don't have to worry about something doesn't mean I won't. I obviously still felt responsible for the renter being happy. It would have been much easier for me to have been in direct contact with the renter in this circumstance. I don't like the way David's is handling the situation and I worry that if they can't go during the rescheduled time David's is going to request I re-rent to someone else and my original renter will end up with a travel voucher and that would make me sad.
I find this whole thing stressful...and I am not out any money.
Good luck everyone and stay safe!
 
Thats how i feel. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned that if Davids offers you the voucher maybe the credit card company wouldnt help you with a charge back. However, the lady specifically said that if its not your original trip that you booked you have the right do file a dispute. So once my date comes I think that is what i will do and they just booked with Disney.
Yeah, my husband and I just decided we'll go for the dispute and just get our money back. When we go next year, we'll just pay extra to book with Disney. The peace of mind to be able to cancel is worth way more than any savings we got renting. I got travel insurance too when I booked last year, in line with all the advice I saw, and that doesn't even help.

David's told me via email yesterday that if Disney is closed for my June trip to expect expect to be notified mid-May. I'm not sure when your trip is but that's the tiny bit of a timeline I was able to get from them.
 
We ended up with points we could not use after a resale purchase, so we decided to rent them. I decided to rent thru David's because I liked the "no refunds". I was nervous that if I rented them out myself and someone who didn't understand the rules on DVC points asked to reschedule or cancel a reservation (which I would have no problem doing if it was possible) and I couldn't help them because of point expiration or availability issues I would feel so bad. I would have a hard time not helping someone but I would also not want to be screwed either. I felt using David's shielded me from that! I thought I would be able to just imagine the wonderful vacation I helped the happy renter have and not worry about it because if a problem had come up for the renter I never would have known about it.
Then this happened! What a crazy situation!

One of our rentals is caught up in this whole mess (it was for March 15th - 17th, I did reschedule them even though I didn't have to since the resort was open but since DVC helped me out by putting my points back into the 2020 UY - I was able to help them out). Thankfully the other one was completed in January. I hope the resort is open for the new dates because I would like to be done with this process! I definitely learned that if I ever find us in the position with points we can't use again and we decide to rent them I will do it myself. I learned that just because I don't have to worry about something doesn't mean I won't. I obviously still felt responsible for the renter being happy. It would have been much easier for me to have been in direct contact with the renter in this circumstance. I don't like the way David's is handling the situation and I worry that if they can't go during the rescheduled time David's is going to request I re-rent to someone else and my original renter will end up with a travel voucher and that would make me sad.
I find this whole thing stressful...and I am not out any money.
Good luck everyone and stay safe!
We bought a DVC resale contract last year that came with extra points that we rented out. I rented about 25% of them through David's, and the other 75% I rented on my own. I was really nervous renting on my own for the reasons you stated above. Renting on my own ended up being a great experience though. I had a good contract drawn up and when one of my renters wanted to change their dates I was able to do so and felt good about helping them (even though they acknowledged I was under no obligation to do so). I was able to check in with each of my renters before their trips to make sure everything was in order (ME, dining plan, room requests) and afterwards as well to ensure they had a good experience. I made more money doing it that way and it was nice to have contact with the renters myself. I liked knowing who was using our points.
 
I would not expect David to have millions of dollars at his disposal. His $4.50 cut has most likely already been spent on business expenses (including wages to his staff) and dividends to the owners. The only cash he has is the 30% due to the owners, but this is offset by the liability of making these payments once check-ins resume at the DVC resorts. Depending on how long the resort closure continues and the success rate of credit card chargebacks, it may be in David's best interest to declare bankruptcy and move on - there is no alternative once the chargeback amount exceeds the 30% held in reserve, he would just be out of cash.

I don't know how each travel insurance policy works, but on my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, which I am using to charge travel expenses, there is an explicit coverage for travel interruption due to airline or travel agent insolvency. With such a clause, there should be much easier for renters to pursue a successful recovery of their expense. Hence I am beginning to wonder whether a sooner rather than later David's bankruptcy would not be best for everyone involved.
If we based on 5000 rentals @ an average of $3000 per rental @ $19 a point Davids would have $3.5 million in commissions. I don't think his staffing and other business costs come anywhere near that, especially when we are talking only 1/4 of the year at that point.
 
As an owner with multiple active reservations with David's stretching through October, I would love being contacted by the renter and work out such a plan - but only if David is bankrupt, or in default of a previous contract. The additional 30% due the owner is actually only an additional 23% payable by the renter, since David takes a $4.50 per point. An even fairer system is for the renter to only pay ~11.5% extra (or ~$2.20 per point) - this would in effect share the loss caused by David's bankruptcy between the owner and renter.

That's an interesting view that I didn't even consider. Taking the voucher, the renter would already be paying an additional 5.5% more at the new rate. So the compromise would eliminate the risk of a voucher for the cost of $1.1/pt. Insurance if you will. I wonder as a renter, how many would be a proponent of that.
 

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