Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Deb & Bill]

Maybe David's new business plan is to buy a bunch of DVC contracts in the next year or two during the recession. Otherwise, he is going to find DVC points much harder to come by to rent. While there are some people who don't read the fine prints, I imagine a fair number of owners would do a quick google search before putting hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of points for rent. Hopefully, they will end up finding warnings on sites such as this or other similar ones.

LAX

That would require David to put out a lot of cash to buy all those premium resorts, plus to pay all their annual fees.

 

[foodiddiedoo]

I haven’t seen a single report yet on outcomes of chargebacks, and there was someone on here yesterday that filed theirs back in March. So it clearly takes time.

I have seen one report of a denied insurance claim on the grounds that the voucher was offered, but with the caveat they could try again if the voucher failed to deliver.

Yeah I have a received provisional credit on my card from the chargeback I filed in Mid-April. The bank told me not to spend it for 30 days or so while they give David's more time to respond but he hasn't as of yet.

 

[LAX]

Apparently, the limit is based upon how the title reads. So, John A. Doe gets the first 8000, John B. Doe gets the next 8000, and so on.

I was going to say if there is a will (and cash), there is a way! My comment about David's getting his own supply of points was more or less tongue-in-cheek. He is acting as if he is the only game in town. I think unless other brokers go in the same direction (which they might, similar to what airlines do), he won't have enough points to rent. He already claimed he was in short supply pre-COVID, and he will get even less now after this self-destruction, IMHO.

Even if all brokers end up being anti-owners, most owners would still be better off doing points transfer or renting on their own. I would even argue that gifting to friends and family is a better option than worrying about whether the resort would be open at the time of a rented reservation. As I have mentioned on multiple occasions before on this thread, if I end up running the risk of losing points (risk of another pandemic/event shutting all DVC resorts is admittedly small, but you never know), what's the point of renting?

LAX

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

I was going to say if there is a will (and cash), there is a way! My comment about David's getting his own supply of points was more or less tongue-in-cheek. He is acting as if he is the only game in town. I think unless other brokers go in the same direction (which they might, similar to what airlines do), he won't have enough points to rent. He already claimed he was in short supply pre-COVID, and he will get even less now after this self-destruction, IMHO.

Even if all brokers end up being anti-owners, most owners would still be better off doing points transfer or renting on their own. I would even argue that gifting to friends and family is a better option than worrying about whether the resort would be open at the time of a rented reservation. As I have mentioned on multiple occasions before on this thread, if I end up running the risk of losing points (risk of another pandemic/event shutting all DVC resorts is admittedly small, but you never know), what's the point of renting?

LAX

Recall David is not a corporation but an individual working with family. I don't know how many family but 4 or 5 adds up to a lot of points... 8K for 4 people is 32K points. 32K making (?) 2 point after the work aspect of Dave is over (out of commission) still is 64K per year in savings on his own commission. Then 6 more after dues. It adds and he is in the business it would be really smart of them

 

[Dracula]

Recall David is not a corporation but an individual working with family. I don't know how many family but 4 or 5 adds up to a lot of points... 8K for 4 people is 32K points. 32K making (?) 2 point after the work aspect of Dave is over (out of commission) still is 64K per year in savings on his own commission. Then 6 more after dues. It adds and he is in the business it would be really smart of them

But DVC points represent a real estate interest, an asset, and in bankruptcy creditors would come after David's assets. Why would David set up a business that is limited by how much capital he has, and whatever rules Disney comes up with, when he can grow an intermediary model with nearly zero capital investment? I am sure that if his contract is not acceptable to owners, he would need to change it again. Furthermore, in a pandemic or other force majeure, David would still lose the use of his points, just like the owners do. I am fairly confident David wants to run a business as an intermediary, not renting out his own points.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

8K for 4 people is 32K points.

Hmmm... so if I put 4000 points in my name and 4000 points in my wife's name, we CAN live at AKV!!!!!!!

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

But DVC points represent a real estate interest, an asset, and in bankruptcy creditors would come after David's assets. Why would David set up a business that is limited by how much capital he has, and whatever rules Disney comes up with, when he can grow an intermediary model with nearly zero capital investment? I am sure that if his contract is not acceptable to owners, he would need to change it again. Furthermore, in a pandemic or other force majeure, David would still lose the use of his points, just like the owners do. I am fairly confident David wants to run a business as an intermediary, not renting out his own points.

As a rhetorical question I have no answer. David has decided to do and has done many things, just recently that not only make no sense to me but that seem to me to make his business and his problems worse.

But if I were in the business buying a lot of 60-70 per point contracts not caring about the annual pass or any discount seems to generate a great ROI. There probably is SOME reason he did not limit his liability

 

[LAX]

But DVC points represent a real estate interest, an asset, and in bankruptcy creditors would come after David's assets. Why would David set up a business that is limited by how much capital he has, and whatever rules Disney comes up with, when he can grow an intermediary model with nearly zero capital investment? I am sure that if his contract is not acceptable to owners, he would need to change it again. Furthermore, in a pandemic or other force majeure, David would still lose the use of his points, just like the owners do. I am fairly confident David wants to run a business as an intermediary, not renting out his own points.

The way he has it set up, it's a no brainer! I can make tons of $$$ while other people (mostly owners) take on the risks. Who wouldn't want a "risk-free" money-making scheme?! Heck, if I can find these owners, I am willing to undercut David's commission.

LAX

 

[cmrdgrs]

So, I have a question, sort-of on topic and sort-of not I guess. For those owners that would like to continue to use a broker, but aren't happy with what David is currently putting in their contract, what would you like to see? What do you think is "fair" to you as an owner?

And to the renters out there -- what do you think is fair to you?

I have no doubt that David will continue to have owners offer points to him for rentals, I guess I'm just wondering, in owners and renters minds -- what do you think is fair?

 

[yankeesfan123]

So, I have a question, sort-of on topic and sort-of not I guess. For those owners that would like to continue to use a broker, but aren't happy with what David is currently putting in their contract, what would you like to see? What do you think is "fair" to you as an owner?

And to the renters out there -- what do you think is fair to you?

I have no doubt that David will continue to have owners offer points to him for rentals, I guess I'm just wondering, in owners and renters minds -- what do you think is fair?

I’d love to answer... but I think it might start an argument.

The only way to avoid an argument is to make David’s take all the risk. But that’s not realistic.

 

[Madame]

So, I have a question, sort-of on topic and sort-of not I guess. For those owners that would like to continue to use a broker, but aren't happy with what David is currently putting in their contract, what would you like to see? What do you think is "fair" to you as an owner?

And to the renters out there -- what do you think is fair to you?

I have no doubt that David will continue to have owners offer points to him for rentals, I guess I'm just wondering, in owners and renters minds -- what do you think is fair?

Brokers should only take points that won’t be lost due to force majeure. Owners should only offer points that they won’t lose because of the same. I bet a huge share of points rented via brokers do not have a big window of use (banked).

If I were a renter I would not want to rent points about to expire, or would expect a larger discount.

I personally won’t ever use a broker again. I’ll rent out myself, using one of The excellent contracts found here and make sure the renter knows the life of the points. I think that would be fair. Brokers can do one. Useless services.

 

[Sandisw]

So, I have a question, sort-of on topic and sort-of not I guess. For those owners that would like to continue to use a broker, but aren't happy with what David is currently putting in their contract, what would you like to see? What do you think is "fair" to you as an owner?

And to the renters out there -- what do you think is fair to you?

I have no doubt that David will continue to have owners offer points to him for rentals, I guess I'm just wondering, in owners and renters minds -- what do you think is fair?

If I was to book with a broker again, I think i would want to see that if something happens via resort closure, that the renter is entitled to a reschedule to be worked out with the owner.

If no reschdule can happen, then the owner keeps the 70% paid, and is done with the transaction. The broker can then make whatever deal they want with the renter as they still have the 30% not paid to the owner and their commission.

 

[cmrdgrs]

I’d love to answer... but I think it might start an argument.

The only way to avoid an argument is to make David’s take all the risk. But that’s not realistic.

You could PM me, I'm very curious what people are thinking.

 

[Amymouse13]

Interesting question... I'm glad I found this group to learn contract law...

It seems the owners simply want their money due and renters just want their reservation. I'm not sure we should presume a pandemic would occur again, but we also aren't out of this one. As the number of deaths seems to be constantly increasing, I'm less convinced I'd be wanting to go to Disney any time again soon... I'm not even convinced there will for sure be a vaccine.

The biggest question is my mind is how dvc acts to make owners whole. I'm not for screwing over the owner, I'm not for owner double dipping, and I'm not for David double dipping.

Ideally same owner and renter rebooking... Guess that means points not expiring. Maybe those need different price and contract

 

[Dracula]

So, I have a question, sort-of on topic and sort-of not I guess. For those owners that would like to continue to use a broker, but aren't happy with what David is currently putting in their contract, what would you like to see? What do you think is "fair" to you as an owner?

And to the renters out there -- what do you think is fair to you?

I have no doubt that David will continue to have owners offer points to him for rentals, I guess I'm just wondering, in owners and renters minds -- what do you think is fair?

I think a $3 per point commission is fair for intermediating between owners and renters. In exchange, the intermediary would assume credit card fees ~$0.60 per point, and reimburse the renter in case of resort closure, with the owner having to re-rent points or, if the points expire, getting to keep the 70% but forgoing the 30% remainder. Hopefully in a couple of years the pandemic would be behind us and will become an insurable risk.

 

[Sandisw]

Interesting question... I'm glad I found this group to learn contract law...

It seems the owners simply want their money due and renters just want their reservation. I'm not sure we should presume a pandemic would occur again, but we also aren't out of this one. As the number of deaths seems to be constantly increasing, I'm less convinced I'd be wanting to go to Disney any time again soon... I'm not even convinced there will for sure be a vaccine.

The biggest question is my mind is how dvc acts to make owners whole. I'm not for screwing over the owner, I'm not for owner double dipping, and I'm not for David double dipping.

Ideally same owner and renter rebooking... Guess that means points not expiring. Maybe those need different price and contract

DVC is a timeshare which means they don’t have to make us whole, but rather make sure the system works moving forward, Some of what they have done was nice and has helped owners, but it wasn’t done with that as it’s main focus,

What many DVC owners are now learning is that booking reservations in the last 4 months of your UY is even more risky than one ever imagined because things can happen outside ones control.

 

[Amymouse13]

DVC is a timeshare which means they don’t have to make us whole, but rather make sure the system works moving forward, Some of what they have done was nice and has helped owners, but it wasn’t done with that as it’s main focus,

What many DVC owners are now learning is that booking reservations in the last 4 months of your UY is even more risky than one ever imagined because things can happen outside ones control.

My point was more no one wants to lose out... Owners don't want to have to refund, renters don't want to lose all their money outside contract terms (old contract), and David's isn't really working for free so.... My point was if dvc extends life might resolve the conundrum...

 

[Sandisw]

My point was more no one wants to lose out... Owners don't want to have to refund, renters don't want to lose all their money outside contract terms (old contract), and David's isn't really working for free so.... My point was if dvc extends life might resolve the conundrum...

True, but only some points are being extended, not all...and only ones that apply to the closure for expiring during it,

So, yes, no one wants to lose in this situation, but even DVC cant necessarily help owners who can’t use points even if extended.

This entire situation has shown a big weakness in the brokers set up.

 

[cmrdgrs]

True, but only some points are being extended, not all...and only ones that apply to the closure for expiring during it,

So, yes, no one wants to lose in this situation, but even DVC cant necessarily help owners who can’t use points even if extended.

This entire situation has shown a big weakness in the brokers set up.

Yes. I have an Aug UY and I have points that may be effected (610) so, I don't know yet what will happen if resorts aren't open in June & July

 

[Bowen Family]

So, I have a question, sort-of on topic and sort-of not I guess. For those owners that would like to continue to use a broker, but aren't happy with what David is currently putting in their contract, what would you like to see? What do you think is "fair" to you as an owner?

And to the renters out there -- what do you think is fair to you?

I have no doubt that David will continue to have owners offer points to him for rentals, I guess I'm just wondering, in owners and renters minds -- what do you think is fair?

I think this is a great question and discussion. I’ve been wondering the same thing and so far all I’ve got is this, FWIW.

In the event of a resort closure, under no circumstances should DVC members keep a renter’s deposit or payment if that member has a reasonable opportunity to use or re-rent their returned points.

Similarly, a renter should not be entitled to a full refund or credit for points returned to a member if those points are effectively worthless due to imminent expiry.

Basically I think that members and renters are helping each other out with something the other wants. And when that arrangement can’t deliver due to circumstances beyond either’s control, then both should share the collateral damage.

Not saying I know exactly what that looks like. But I think for starters, renters should always be given point expiry dates upfront, as it then becomes their responsibility to understand the limitations and risk of the ‘product’ they are renting.

And finally, going forward I think more flexible and direct rescheduling arrangements should be permitted between member and renter. If brokers’ policies and fixed contracts prove too inflexible for this, they will start finding themselves cut out of the picture. Maybe brokers need to retool themselves to simply charge a modest finder’s fee for pairing members and renters from a database, but nothing more.