Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Cyberc1978]

Maybe this is controversial but here goes.

Davids tend to think that his contract does not apply to him. At least not if it cost him money. Current owners are not getting their 30% even though they should.

Even if a new owner "accepts" davids contract terms and give davids his points to rent and then we have a new pandemic, then Davids assume that owners will issue a refund. If owners wont, what will Davids do? We have already clarified that taking davids or an owner to court over $1,000 - $2,000 is not worth it.

I know that going forward you couldn't use Davids again but the owners that Davids have screwed now, most likely wont work with him again too.

Just saying if Davids dont play by the rules why should everyone else?

 

[McCrae]

I think this is a great question and discussion. I’ve been wondering the same thing and so far all I’ve got is this, FWIW.

In the event of a resort closure, under no circumstances should DVC members keep a renter’s deposit or payment if that member has a reasonable opportunity to use or re-rent their returned points.

Similarly, a renter should not be entitled to a full refund or credit for points returned to a member if those points are effectively worthless due to imminent expiry.

Basically I think that members and renters are helping each other out with something the other wants. And when that arrangement can’t deliver due to circumstances beyond either’s control, then both should share the collateral damage.

Not saying I know exactly what that looks like. But I think for starters, renters should always be given point expiry dates upfront, as it then becomes their responsibility to understand the limitations and risk of the ‘product’ they are renting.

And finally, going forward I think more flexible and direct rescheduling arrangements should be permitted between member and renter. If brokers’ policies and fixed contracts prove too inflexible for this, they will start finding themselves cut out of the picture. Maybe brokers need to retool themselves to simply charge a modest finder’s fee for pairing members and renters from a database, but nothing more.

As an owner this wouldn’t work for me. I want a simple easy transaction without any complications. I want all sales to be final and would only agree to provide a refund if I was directly responsible for a reservation being cancelled. I would like to have the ability but not the obligation to amend/reschedule reservations in the event of a resort closing.

I would expect a better drafted contract for the renter making it clear that under no circumstances would refunds be available. The discounted price obtained through renting is a reflection of the risks involved for the renter.

 

[Cyberc1978]

a question for renters.

It seems that Florida state are working on re-opening, IF resorts are open but parks are not do you still wanna go? Even if parks are open would you feel safe enough to go?

 

[Grnl706]

a question for renters.

It seems that Florida state are working on re-opening, IF resorts are open but parks are not do you still wanna go? Even if parks are open would you feel safe enough to go?

I won't be going. My reservation is mid June. I've already booked a room directly with Disney for next year. I was flying, which I don't feel comfortable doing, and it is a 14 hour drive which j never intended to do. I wouldn't go that far for a resort stay only. If the parks are open, I think it would still be too altered for the trip we have to make.

 

[yankeesfan123]

I think this is a great question and discussion. I’ve been wondering the same thing and so far all I’ve got is this, FWIW.

In the event of a resort closure, under no circumstances should DVC members keep a renter’s deposit or payment if that member has a reasonable opportunity to use or re-rent their returned points.

Similarly, a renter should not be entitled to a full refund or credit for points returned to a member if those points are effectively worthless due to imminent expiry.

Basically I think that members and renters are helping each other out with something the other wants. And when that arrangement can’t deliver due to circumstances beyond either’s control, then both should share the collateral damage.

Not saying I know exactly what that looks like. But I think for starters, renters should always be given point expiry dates upfront, as it then becomes their responsibility to understand the limitations and risk of the ‘product’ they are renting.

And finally, going forward I think more flexible and direct rescheduling arrangements should be permitted between member and renter. If brokers’ policies and fixed contracts prove too inflexible for this, they will start finding themselves cut out of the picture. Maybe brokers need to retool themselves to simply charge a modest finder’s fee for pairing members and renters from a database, but nothing more.

As a renter, why is it my fault that the owner decided to use potentially distressed points to book the room? I don’t get a refund or credit because the owner decided to use potentially distressed points? See, as a renter thru David’s, I don’t know anything about whether or not points are distressed, so why should I take on that risk?

I know you brought up a good idea about going forward renters should know when the points “expire”, but dealing with the current issue, that shouldn’t matter.

 

[Bowen Family]

As a renter, why is it my fault that the owner decided to use potentially distressed points to book the room? I don’t get a refund or credit because the owner decided to use potentially distressed points? See, as a renter thru David’s, I don’t know anything about whether or not points are distressed, so why should I take on that risk?

I know you brought up a good idea about going forward renters should know when the points “expire”, but dealing with the current issue, that shouldn’t matter.

Agreed! My suggestion is only meant to apply to future rentals, and not applicable to the current situation. Renters should be able to make informed decisions about the points they’re paying for. They may decide to go ahead with a riskier rental anyways, but at least it was with full knowledge.

 

[Cyberc1978]

As a renter, why is it my fault that the owner decided to use potentially distressed points to book the room? I don’t get a refund or credit because the owner decided to use potentially distressed points? See, as a renter thru David’s, I don’t know anything about whether or not points are distressed, so why should I take on that risk?

I know you brought up a good idea about going forward renters should know when the points “expire”, but dealing with the current issue, that shouldn’t matter.

Problem already start when you as a renter makes the reservation with David’s.

Say you want to travel 3/20-3/28-2021. That reservation can be made now and points for the reservation is all but distressed.
Furthermore an owner with an April UY can ensure the dates BUT the points expire 3/31-2021.

IMO renters want all the savings when staying onsite but they don’t want any of the risks. IMO that doesn’t add up.

if you don’t want any of the risks you shouldn’t have any of the savings.

Hopefully no owners in their right mind are gonna take all risks and then only getting paid pennies on the dollar which David’s are offering.

 

[Bowen Family]

As an owner this wouldn’t work for me. I want a simple easy transaction without any complications. I want all sales to be final and would only agree to provide a refund if I was directly responsible for a reservation being cancelled. I would like to have the ability but not the obligation to amend/reschedule reservations in the event of a resort closing.

I would expect a better drafted contract for the renter making it clear that under no circumstances would refunds be available. The discounted price obtained through renting is a reflection of the risks involved for the renter.

I’ve seen some members here make this claim that the “discounted price” is a reflection of the risk that ought be borne entirely by renters. Respectfully, I fundamentally disagree.

For a lot of reasons, the DVC rental ‘product’ is less valuable than direct cash rooms from Disney. The going rental rate is simply a reflection of that. Don’t believe me? Try renting out your points at Disney cash rates. Even if you matched Disney’s low risk cancellation policies, the renter would still have to book 11 months out to compete for limited supply, forego house keeping, pay upfront, deal with brokers and contracts, etc. Rental points simply wouldn’t be competitive. The price is the price. If a renter pays that price in full, they are entitled to reasonable protection. Full stop.

Look at it another way. Suppose you buy a used Hyundai. After you’ve paid, the original owner says, “Sorry pal, the car’s wrecked and no longer available. And I’m keeping your money. Next time buy a new Mercedes.”

Life just doesn’t work that way!

 

[Donna M]

Agreed! My suggestion is only meant to apply to future rentals, and not applicable to the current situation. Renters should be able to make informed decisions about the points they’re paying for. They may decide to go ahead with a riskier rental anyways, but at least it was with full knowledge.

I agree that renters need to understand what they are agreeing to, but I don't think it would be reasonable for renters to understand the whole "points expiring" thing, nor be expected to. If I was renting, I would assume that the points are good, that all the contracts out there would be able to give me the reservation that I would need. I would be thinking that renting points is similar to renting a hotel room with some differences, that the savings are worth it, or were worth it up till this fiasco. All the ins and outs of banking, borrowing, and rule of four, or whatever it's called, can be confusing enough for the owners.

I am an owner and have mention David's to other DVC friends, though I haven't needed to use them myself. After what has happened and the way the new contract reads, especially the section on having to cover more expensive accommodations if something happened, there's no way I would rent out points now, nor will I mention David's in any positive light.

 

[lawboy2001]

I’ve seen some members here make this claim that the “discounted price” is a reflection of the risk that ought be borne entirely by renters. Respectfully, I fundamentally disagree.

For a lot of reasons, the DVC rental ‘product’ is less valuable than direct cash rooms from Disney. The going rental rate is simply a reflection of that. Don’t believe me? Try renting out your points at Disney cash rates. Even if you matched Disney’s low risk cancellation policies, the renter would still have to book 11 months out to compete for limited supply, forego house keeping, pay upfront, deal with brokers and contracts, etc. Rental points simply wouldn’t be competitive. The price is the price. If a renter pays that price in full, they are entitled to reasonable protection. Full stop.

Look at it another way. Suppose you buy a used Hyundai. After you’ve paid, the original owner says, “Sorry pal, the car’s wrecked and no longer available. And I’m keeping your money. Next time buy a new Mercedes.”

Life just doesn’t work that way!

This whole comparison of the cost of booking rooms from Disney vs rent DVC points is invalid. The rooms for cash from Disney are not generally DVC rooms. Look up availability for DVC rooms on the Disney site for next fall or winter, and you'll see that not many have a realistic opportunity to book many DVC rooms for cash from Disney. I.e. you want a one bedroom at VGF -- good luck!!!! Boardwalk? Same.

If people want to stay in a DVC room with a full kitchen or even kitchenette, rather than a hotel room, there are 2 realistic options -- buy DVC or rent from an existing owner.

This whole discussion started with someone saying "Renters want discounts from cash rates!" and off we went.

 

[Cyberc1978]

I’ve seen some members here make this claim that the “discounted price” is a reflection of the risk that ought be borne entirely by renters. Respectfully, I fundamentally disagree.

For a lot of reasons, the DVC rental ‘product’ is less valuable than direct cash rooms from Disney. The going rental rate is simply a reflection of that. Don’t believe me? Try renting out your points at Disney cash rates. Even if you matched Disney’s low risk cancellation policies, the renter would still have to book 11 months out to compete for limited supply, forego house keeping, pay upfront, deal with brokers and contracts, etc. Rental points simply wouldn’t be competitive. The price is the price. If a renter pays that price in full, they are entitled to reasonable protection. Full stop.

Look at it another way. Suppose you buy a used Hyundai. After you’ve paid, the original owner says, “Sorry pal, the car’s wrecked and no longer available. And I’m keeping your money. Next time buy a new Mercedes.”

Life just doesn’t work that way!

I agree to the extent that if you pay full Disney price you should have the same protection.

a stay at BWV either direct or through an owner is the same except for housekeeping and the cancellation policy.

Saving up to 50% does come with a risk. As before corona renting is not for everyone and that’s totally okay.

btw you can’t book ie BWV directly with Disney more than 11 months out. Disney need to follow the same set of rules as owners.

 

[CraigInPA]

As a renter, why is it my fault that the owner decided to use potentially distressed points to book the room? I don’t get a refund or credit because the owner decided to use potentially distressed points? See, as a renter thru David’s, I don’t know anything about whether or not points are distressed, so why should I take on that risk?

I would posit that the vast majority of points offered for rent are banked points, followed by current year points where the Owner wants to go somewhere else. In a direct renter-owner contract, the owner could state the expiration of the points and allow the renter to decide whether to book a no-refund reservation.

When I rented points directly, I was completely up front with the renter that the points (all of which were banked points) expired on November 30, and I would be willing to re-schedule his trip if he found it necessary to change it from the original May date. As it was, he did end up needing to change it, and I successfully moved it to October. It was understood, by contract, that the contract was non-refundable for any reason.

When you rent from a broker, who masks the details of the transaction from you, you rightly assume that the broker is working in both your and the owner's interest to mitigate risk. As we've seen, David's did not even consider resort closure in his contract, despite the fact that resort closures had occurred in the past due to hurricanes.

It seems that the future business model may be to rent points based upon when they expire. For example, if you want an October 2021 reservation at BLT and it's November 2020, you need to rent BLT points. In matching you to owners, you have a choice of taking banked points expiring in November at $18/point, current year (1) points expiring in April 2022 for $22/point, or current year refundable (2) points expiring in April 2022 for $24/point. The current year (1) and current year refundable (2) points could have change privileges, allowing a reservation up to their expiration date. The current year refundable (2) would have the ability to get a refund up to 3 months before the expiration of the points (i.e., when they can still be banked) less a service fee of $2 per point. Current year (1) and banked points would have no refund for any reason whatsoever.

 

[MIDisFan]

I’ve seen some members here make this claim that the “discounted price” is a reflection of the risk that ought be borne entirely by renters. Respectfully, I fundamentally disagree.

For a lot of reasons, the DVC rental ‘product’ is less valuable than direct cash rooms from Disney. The going rental rate is simply a reflection of that. Don’t believe me? Try renting out your points at Disney cash rates. Even if you matched Disney’s low risk cancellation policies, the renter would still have to book 11 months out to compete for limited supply, forego house keeping, pay upfront, deal with brokers and contracts, etc. Rental points simply wouldn’t be competitive. The price is the price. If a renter pays that price in full, they are entitled to reasonable protection. Full stop.

Look at it another way. Suppose you buy a used Hyundai. After you’ve paid, the original owner says, “Sorry pal, the car’s wrecked and no longer available. And I’m keeping your money. Next time buy a new Mercedes.”

Life just doesn’t work that way!

Odd that something less valuable would be in such high demand. The problem is that when you agreed to use a broker and signed the contract, as a renter, you took on all the risk. Fair or not, those were the agreed upon terms. If brokers start demanding owners be flexible to make changes or refunds, they will find an even greater shortage of points to rent. Moving forward, the brokers are changing the terms to at best offer you a credit in the event of a resort closure beyond control of any party. What difference would it make if the owners points were distressed or not to the renter.

 

[McCrae]

I’ve seen some members here make this claim that the “discounted price” is a reflection of the risk that ought be borne entirely by renters. Respectfully, I fundamentally disagree.

For a lot of reasons, the DVC rental ‘product’ is less valuable than direct cash rooms from Disney. The going rental rate is simply a reflection of that. Don’t believe me? Try renting out your points at Disney cash rates. Even if you matched Disney’s low risk cancellation policies, the renter would still have to book 11 months out to compete for limited supply, forego house keeping, pay upfront, deal with brokers and contracts, etc. Rental points simply wouldn’t be competitive. The price is the price. If a renter pays that price in full, they are entitled to reasonable protection. Full stop.

Look at it another way. Suppose you buy a used Hyundai. After you’ve paid, the original owner says, “Sorry pal, the car’s wrecked and no longer available. And I’m keeping your money. Next time buy a new Mercedes.”

Life just doesn’t work that way!

Renters like owners have a choice. If they don't like the contract terms walk away.

David's contracts with renters did not make it clear enough what the risks were. If they had he wouldn't be facing the problems he now does.

 

[Bowen Family]

Renters like owners have a choice. If they don't like the contract terms walk away.

The problem with David's contracts with renters is that the risks were not clearly spelt out.

Agreed on all points! And I am definitely walking away.

 

[chicagodisneyguy]

Renters like owners have a choice. If they don't like the contract terms walk away.

Honestly at this point I don't know how anyone on either side of the transaction can use David's and feel their interests are protected. Even if best case scenario of June 1st happens there are decent odds another flare up could cause a second closure. I just can't see how renter's savings or owner's revenue is worth the risks currently involved.

 

[disneypharm]

As an owner this wouldn’t work for me. I want a simple easy transaction without any complications. I want all sales to be final and would only agree to provide a refund if I was directly responsible for a reservation being cancelled. I would like to have the ability but not the obligation to amend/reschedule reservations in the event of a resort closing.

I would expect a better drafted contract for the renter making it clear that under no circumstances would refunds be available. The discounted price obtained through renting is a reflection of the risks involved for the renter.

Really? He has already created a new contract (see one of the terms below) that clearly states that the accommodation is non-refundable in the event of another closure. So, what else do you need? Right now, most renters are stuck and will be taking a voucher and sign a new contract, hoping to get something out of this mess. However, as I have said before, I don't understand why any renter in their right mind will be willing to sign a new contract that does not guarantee any accommodation!!

It is like sellers online trying to sell you something, you pay them, but they will not guarantee you a product!! LOL!!

"In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted."
"

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

I think this is a great question and discussion. I’ve been wondering the same thing and so far all I’ve got is this, FWIW.

In the event of a resort closure, under no circumstances should DVC members keep a renter’s deposit or payment if that member has a reasonable opportunity to use or re-rent their returned points.

Similarly, a renter should not be entitled to a full refund or credit for points returned to a member if those points are effectively worthless due to imminent expiry.

Basically I think that members and renters are helping each other out with something the other wants. And when that arrangement can’t deliver due to circumstances beyond either’s control, then both should share the collateral damage.

Not saying I know exactly what that looks like. But I think for starters, renters should always be given point expiry dates upfront, as it then becomes their responsibility to understand the limitations and risk of the ‘product’ they are renting.

And finally, going forward I think more flexible and direct rescheduling arrangements should be permitted between member and renter. If brokers’ policies and fixed contracts prove too inflexible for this, they will start finding themselves cut out of the picture. Maybe brokers need to retool themselves to simply charge a modest finder’s fee for pairing members and renters from a database, but nothing more.

How could this be implemented? Since David knows the status of points should renters get a discount on banked or soon to expire points matched to a more stringent no refunds policy?

 

[Amymouse13]

I'm pretty sure most renters myself included interpreted no refunds to pertain to any reason I needed to cancel or reschedule not limited to family illness, jobs, etc... Clearly not that our reservation could be cancelled by another to no fault of ours and be due nothing... Actually appeared to acknowledge that by saying if owner cancelled we received refund.

 

[McCrae]

Really? He has already created a new contract (see one of the terms below) that clearly states that the accommodation is non-refundable in the event of another closure. So, what else do you need? Right now, most renters are stuck and will be taking a voucher and sign a new contract, hoping to get something out of this mess. However, as I have said before, I don't understand why any renter in their right mind will be willing to sign a new contract that does not guarantee any accommodation!!

It is like sellers online trying to sell you something, you pay them, but they will not guarantee you a product!! LOL!!

"In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted."
"

Really? He has already created a new contract (see one of the terms below) that clearly states that the accommodation is non-refundable in the event of another closure. So, what else do you need? Right now, most renters are stuck and will be taking a voucher and sign a new contract, hoping to get something out of this mess. However, as I have said before, I don't understand why any renter in their right mind will be willing to sign a new contract that does not guarantee any accommodation!!

It is like sellers online trying to sell you something, you pay them, but they will not guarantee you a product!! LOL!!

"In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted."
"

The idea of non refundable bookings is not unique or a new idea. It's common practice in the field sports industry where the weather can force cancellations.

No one is forced to accept this clause and as long as the renters understand and accept what risks they are taking on , its not a problem.

David's current contract makes it clear that an owner would be required to refund a renter. The conditions are clear. As an owner it's up to me to decide if I want to accept this or not.