Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[McCrae]

Honestly at this point I don't know how anyone on either side of the transaction can use David's and feel their interests are protected. Even if best case scenario of June 1st happens there are decent odds another flare up could cause a second closure. I just can't see how renter's savings or owner's revenue is worth the risks currently involved.

I agree.

 

[McCrae]

I’ve seen some members here make this claim that the “discounted price” is a reflection of the risk that ought be borne entirely by renters. Respectfully, I fundamentally disagree.

For a lot of reasons, the DVC rental ‘product’ is less valuable than direct cash rooms from Disney. The going rental rate is simply a reflection of that. Don’t believe me? Try renting out your points at Disney cash rates. Even if you matched Disney’s low risk cancellation policies, the renter would still have to book 11 months out to compete for limited supply, forego house keeping, pay upfront, deal with brokers and contracts, etc. Rental points simply wouldn’t be competitive. The price is the price. If a renter pays that price in full, they are entitled to reasonable protection. Full stop.

Look at it another way. Suppose you buy a used Hyundai. After you’ve paid, the original owner says, “Sorry pal, the car’s wrecked and no longer available. And I’m keeping your money. Next time buy a new Mercedes.”

Life just doesn’t work that way!

What made you decide to rent points?

 

[Dracula]

I'm pretty sure most renters myself included interpreted no refunds to pertain to any reason I needed to cancel or reschedule not limited to family illness, jobs, etc... Clearly not that our reservation could be cancelled by another to no fault of ours and be due nothing... Actually appeared to acknowledge that by saying if owner cancelled we received refund.

David surely knows how to put the "fun" in "no refunds". Disney fans would appreciate

 

[Sandisw]

As a renter, why is it my fault that the owner decided to use potentially distressed points to book the room? I don’t get a refund or credit because the owner decided to use potentially distressed points? See, as a renter thru David’s, I don’t know anything about whether or not points are distressed, so why should I take on that risk?

I know you brought up a good idea about going forward renters should know when the points “expire”, but dealing with the current issue, that shouldn’t matter.

I think if the renter is getting a significant savings then they have to decide if it’s worth the risk of renting,

As an owner, I wouldn’t rent through a broker with having to return fund, regardless of point status because getting points back that I can’t use...which is why i rented in the first place...doesn’t do me any good. I’d be forced to get into another contract,

Having said that, I think it needs to be clear to renters the options and what happens and then they get to make an informed choice,

Now, if I was renting privately, then my deal with a renter, if a resort closed, would be to refund them a set dollar amount..$5... for a cancelation. Some might be okay with it and some will not,

Id be willing to make minor changes as long as they were far enough away and within the expiration of the points since I’d be collecting 100% at time of original booking

 

[Bowen Family]

What made you decide to rent points?

Fair question.

1) We're thinking of buying DVC and wanted to try the experience. I still think DVC is a great product when used primarily for personal use. But the broker industry's cracks are now showing and we're done with it.

2) We thought the rental price was competitive, and the contract fair, on the reasonable presumption that everyone is able to come out ahead in the end.

Now your turn. What made you decide to rent out your points?

 

[CraigInPA]

@Bowen Family I was like you. After extensive research, I wanted to try various DVC resorts to see which one was our future "home". I had previously stayed at Poly (like 15 times!), but never at my other two choices: BCV and BLT. So, I rented some points. I stayed at BCV at the end of food and wine, and BLT at the beginning of flower and garden. I'm really glad I did, because both my wife and I both decided that BLT was perfect for us.

When we purchased our first resale contract, it came completely loaded. We banked the current year points. Because we had planned to go somewhere other than WDW the next year, we suddenly had 320 points we needed to get rid of inside 18 months. We decided to rent them through David's, and had a good experience with that. Later, when we bought an add-on that also came loaded, we had another 60 points we needed to use or lose. Those we rented ourselves through disboards. It was an easy process once we had someone who was realistic about availability and how many points were needed for his desired stay. Since then, we've added on again, but banked the points and then used them the next year.

So, in answer to your question as to what made me decide to rent points, it was simply because we (or anyone in the family) had no use for them before they expired.

 

[Madame]

Fair question.

1) We're thinking of buying DVC and wanted to try the experience. I still think DVC is a great product when used primarily for personal use. But the broker industry's cracks are now showing and we're done with it.

2) We thought the rental price was competitive, and the contract fair, on the reasonable presumption that everyone is able to come out ahead in the end.

Now your turn. What made you decide to rent out your points?

Your response here makes it look like you didn’t strike first. You did. How about we focus on the broker, to whom all of us « paid » (owners losing potential $ & that $ going to the broker is exactly like owners paying for their services), and whose contract seems to protect no one.

 

[McCrae]

Fair question.

1) We're thinking of buying DVC and wanted to try the experience. I still think DVC is a great product when used primarily for personal use. But the broker industry's cracks are now showing and we're done with it.

2) We thought the rental price was competitive, and the contract fair, on the reasonable presumption that everyone is able to come out ahead in the end.

Now your turn. What made you decide to rent out your points?

I had some available, choice either bank them or rent. Decided to rent. It was an easy process.

 

[MIDisFan]

Fair question.

1) We're thinking of buying DVC and wanted to try the experience. I still think DVC is a great product when used primarily for personal use. But the broker industry's cracks are now showing and we're done with it.

2) We thought the rental price was competitive, and the contract fair, on the reasonable presumption that everyone is able to come out ahead in the end.

Now your turn. What made you decide to rent out your points?

Not to speak for someone else, but for me, simple---surplus of points. It's been years since i've rented points through a broker. If I recall correctly, the contract always seemed to favor the broker and the owner. Reservations were non refundable for any reason short of the owner not honoring the reservation. The reason most choose to go through a broker rather than a private party is for the false sense of security the brokers push acting as an escrow service. The reality is, they seem to be doing far less for their customers than a private owner is willing to. At a premium, I might add.

The situation is horrible for renters and owners. It's not fair to blame either when that falls entirely on the brokers imho

 

[cmrdgrs]

Honestly at this point I don't know how anyone on either side of the transaction can use David's and feel their interests are protected. Even if best case scenario of June 1st happens there are decent odds another flare up could cause a second closure. I just can't see how renter's savings or owner's revenue is worth the risks currently involved.

To me, I guess this is really where the miscommunication is, brokers don't have anyone's best interests in mind. They are a business and exist to make money and have there own best interest in mind, and are trying to figure out how to make the maximum amount of money and pay owners the least amount of money.

I'm not saying that brokers don't want to provide a service that had perceived value and [up till now] seemed to make people happy -- Some owners clearly don't want to deal with renters directly. These owners seem to want some level of anonymity, and they didn't want to have to find renters interested in using their points. What I find interesting is that the owners still provided all the same "services" they would have to provide for the renter, as if they rented their points privately. So the owners are doing the same amount of work. All the high paid broker did was play the role of a high paid match maker.

Renters had a perceived feeling of being "safe" and that their vacation money was safe by using the broker instead of booking directly with an owner. Renters are willing to accept a non-refundable discounted DVC vacation if the cancellation is their fault. The thought that Disney & DVCM would close resorts leaving owners and renters hanging never entered into anyone's consciousness.

As we have seen from this scenario a point isn't a point when there is a problem. This fact has shown the flaw in the broker model. Aside from "premium" resorts that are hard to book or have high demand, flexibility to accommodate a change in the event of a force majeure has real value to the broker.

It seems like the biggest issue that I've seen were everyone takes issue is that brokers are not willing to take any type of loss on their very high commission in this situation ($4.50pp = 22.5% profit on each transaction).

And what do owners and renters get for the 22.5% profit the broker took in the transaction? Not a whole lot we have come to find out.

Maybe the outcome of this is that brokers will be less popular? Maybe "classified" ads for DVC rentals will become more popular?

Can someone else enter the market with a broker model mousetrap? It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

 

[Cloudy]

I'm pretty sure most renters myself included interpreted no refunds to pertain to any reason I needed to cancel or reschedule not limited to family illness, jobs, etc... Clearly not that our reservation could be cancelled by another to no fault of ours and be due nothing... Actually appeared to acknowledge that by saying if owner cancelled we received refund.

This would be an interesting poll. I am a renter, although not through David's. I had a one week rental at WBC through Redweek (May 8th) and a 2 month rental (April and May) at a privately owned condo in Clearwater. I booked a no cancellation reservation. I interpreted this to mean no refunds for any reason: illness, lost job, hurricane, or now pandemic. The only reason I would expect a refund is if the owner cancelled as either fraud or an elective reason on their end (they had an illness and now needed the condo).

For full disclosure, in the end, the owner of the Redweek rental gave me a full refund after a request by Redweek not initiated by me (WBC closed during our dates). For the Clearwater rental, we have agreed with the owner to split the loss 50/50 (we were prepared to go but the Condo Association is not allowing renters).

 

[cmrdgrs]

This would be an interesting poll. I am a renter, although not through David's. I had a one week rental at WBC through Redweek (May 8th) and a 2 month rental (April and May) at a privately owned condo in Clearwater. I booked a no cancellation reservation. I interpreted this to mean no refunds for any reason: illness, lost job, hurricane, or now pandemic. The only reason I would expect a refund is if the owner cancelled as either fraud or an elective reason on their end (they had an illness and now needed the condo).

For full disclosure, in the end, the owner of the Redweek rental gave me a full refund after a request by Redweek not initiated by me (WBC closed during our dates). For the Clearwater rental, we have agreed with the owner to split the loss 50/50 (we were prepared to go but the Condo Association is not allowing renters).

The biggest problem I see is that the closure is due to a party not even represented or involved in the agreement. In your rental case, in Clearwater, the the Condo Association has made the decision to not allow renters and the owner of the condo has no say in the matter. In the case of Disney, Disney made the decision to close, and DVCM on my behalf as an owner made the decision to close the resort. As an owner, I had no say in the matter.

Brokers pay one price to owners for their points because that model is simply and easy to understand. What if brokers shifted and paid more money to owners for bankable/current UY points and less money for banked points or when a reservation is made in the last 4 months of the owners UY? Obviously, the same would be true for renters they pay more for bankable/current UY points and less for reservations made on banked points or in the last four months of an owners UY?

Honestly, this is what I do on personal level when I rent. I never book a rental in the last 4 months of my UY and I try to book rentals early in my UY to give me maximum flexibility.

 

[YourEveryDayAdam]

As an owner, one thing this has taught me: If I do rent out my points, I am renting out specific points that can be used for a reservation and not necessarily a specific reservation. Renting those specific points may be conditioned on initially acquiring a specific reservation...but you are buying the points, and not the reservation those points are backing.

i.e. you get "X number of Feb 2020 use year points, that can be used for a reservation between now and Jan 31, 2021. If you contact me 2 weeks before the banking deadline, i'll bank them in to be able to be used for a reservation from Feb 1, 2021 to Jan 31, 2022. Your reservation at ABC Resort for X sized room for Y-Z dates is already booked. You can have one courtesy rebooking, subject to availability. Additional rebookings cost $20 each, subject to availability. No changes within 45 days of check in, Points not used before they expire are forfeit and no refunds will be provided" Something like that. At this point, I would also be sure to include a resort closure clause, where i'll do a free rebook if the resort is closed through no fault of the owner or renter...subject to points usage restrictions previously established...giving the renter the same flexibility that DVC gives me to use those points...banking deadlines, waived holding, extended usage, etc...again, all subject to availability.

From an owners perspective, the purpose of rentals is that I have points that I either can't use or don't want to use. For renters, the purpose of rentals is discounted rooms at Disney Resorts, but there is some aspect of "you get what you pay for"...if you want full flexibility, return policy, refunds, daily housekeeping, etc. then you have to pay full retail. Those privileges are built in to the price of those accommodations.

We as owners took that same bargain of "you get what you pay for"...We get these rooms at a significant discount, while also accepting significant limitations. From my perspective, if renters want to participate in that system, then they should also be taking on the risks/limitations of that system. Caveat Emptor...buyers should be responsible for knowing what they are buying before hand. Unless an owner misleads a renter about what they are buying, then it is up to the renter to know what they are buying into and it's limitations. Renters aren't buying a hotel room. They are buying one-time-usage of a timeshare.

 

[cmrdgrs]

As an owner, one thing this has taught me: If I do rent out my points, I am renting out specific points that can be used for a reservation and not necessarily a specific reservation. Renting those specific points may be conditioned on initially acquiring a specific reservation...but you are buying the points, and not the reservation those points are backing.

i.e. you get "X number of Feb 2020 use year points, that can be used for a reservation between now and Jan 31, 2021. If you contact me 2 weeks before the banking deadline, i'll bank them in to be able to be used for a reservation from Feb 1, 2021 to Jan 31, 2022. Your reservation at ABC Resort for X sized room for Y-Z dates is already booked. You can have one courtesy rebooking, subject to availability. Additional rebookings cost $20 each, subject to availability. No changes within 45 days of check in, Points not used before they expire are forfeit and no refunds will be provided" Something like that. At this point, I would also be sure to include a resort closure clause, where i'll do a free rebook if the resort is closed through no fault of the owner or renter...subject to points usage restrictions previously established...giving the renter the same flexibility that DVC gives me to use those points...banking deadlines, waived holding, extended usage, etc...again, all subject to availability.

From an owners perspective, the purpose of rentals is that I have points that I either can't use or don't want to use. For renters, the purpose of rentals is discounted rooms at Disney Resorts, but there is some aspect of "you get what you pay for"...if you want full flexibility, return policy, refunds, daily housekeeping, etc. then you have to pay full retail. Those privileges are built in to the price of those accommodations.

We as owners took that same bargain of "you get what you pay for"...We get these rooms at a significant discount, while also accepting significant limitations. From my perspective, if renters want to participate in that system, then they should also be taking on the risks/limitations of that system. Caveat Emptor...buyers should be responsible for knowing what they are buying before hand. Unless an owner misleads a renter about what they are buying, then it is up to the renter to know what they are buying into and it's limitations. Renters aren't buying a hotel room. They are buying one-time-usage of a timeshare.

This is really well said IMO -- given the mess of the closures. I can't speak for others, but I do think it is fair for an owner to offer a workaround to the renter under the same restrictions Disney gives me the owner to work under in the case of a force majeure causing the DVC resort to close. But, then the price for points shouldn't be equal in my mind for a renter.

Take this situation. All renters paid the same price for reservation in the 7 month window. But, in this situation with the closure, all renters did not get the same result given what type of points they unknowingly rented (banked/current UY/borrowed). I guess the broker is trying to make up for that shortfall with the travel vouchers, but the travel vouchers don't seem to be making owners or renters happy, so dealing with this on the back end of the deal, instead of the front end of the deal seems to be backfiring for brokers.

 

[YourEveryDayAdam]

This is really well said IMO -- given the mess of the closures. I can't speak for others, but I do think it is fair for an owner to offer a workaround to the renter under the same restrictions Disney gives me the owner to work under in the case of a force majeure causing the DVC resort to close. But, then the price for points shouldn't be equal in my mind for a renter.

Take this situation. All renters paid the same price for reservation in the 7 month window. But, in this situation with the closure, all renters did not get the same result given what type of points they unknowingly rented (banked/current UY/borrowed). I guess the broker is trying to make up for that shortfall with the travel vouchers, but the travel vouchers don't seem to be making owners or renters happy, so dealing with this on the back end of the deal, instead of the front end of the deal seems to be backfiring for brokers.

Yes, and that is one of the downsides of the broker model for DVC rental. They hide the messy details from the renter. When a broker books a reservation there could be any number of owners that they can pull from, and as a renter, you could end up with points of a WIDE variety of status...current year...borrowed...banked...and any one of the use year months....you simply don't know.

I know why brokers try to hide those details from renters...because it would simply cause confusion and apprehension for the renter that is, in most cases, not necessary for them to be confused about. Brokers SHOULD be matching up owners and renters well...not matching up desired dates with travel in the last 4-months of the use year...paying more for current use-year points...etc...

By removing the broker from the equation, the renter can be much more informed about what they end up with. And, from what we've seen, most renters and owners have been perfectly willing to rebook, compromise, etc. to make everyone happy. It's really been the brokers getting in the way...either because they don't want to give up the relationship to the renter or they are just unwilling to spend the time necessary to make it happen correctly.

 

[Amymouse13]

Yes, and that is one of the downsides of the broker model for DVC rental. They hide the messy details from the renter. When a broker books a reservation there could be any number of owners that they can pull from, and as a renter, you could end up with points of a WIDE variety of status...current year...borrowed...banked...and any one of the use year months....you simply don't know.

I know why brokers try to hide those details from renters...because it would simply cause confusion and apprehension for the renter that is, in most cases, not necessary for them to be confused about. Brokers SHOULD be matching up owners and renters well...not matching up desired dates with travel in the last 4-months of the use year...paying more for current use-year points...etc...

By removing the broker from the equation, the renter can be much more informed about what they end up with. And, from what we've seen, most renters and owners have been perfectly willing to rebook, compromise, etc. to make everyone happy. It's really been the brokers getting in the way...either because they don't want to give up the relationship to the renter or they are just unwilling to spend the time necessary to make it happen correctly.

Brokers or only David

 

[cmrdgrs]

Brokers or only David

As far as I know, none of the brokers share the details/status of the points they rent. We have several renters on this thread that didn't know anything about points or why certain points might have more value than others. And all the brokers, as far as I can tell from what I've been reading here and on other boards, are issuing travel vouchers just like David.

ETA: The only time that I know of when David shares the status of points is when the points are "distressed" and he is having a "fire sale" for those types of rentals where he sends a flash email.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

I'll throw in my 2 cents. FWIW, I am an owner, not a renter.

This may sound obvious, but from reading these boards over the past couple of months, it appears that a good portion of the DVC community doesn't really understand the difference. As an owner, I am an owner. I am not a renter. I own a portion of Saratoga Springs Resort. Disney Vacation Club Management is simply a hired management service. We (all of the owners at SSR) collectively pay them a management fee to provide the service of operating these resorts on our behalf.

When DVCM decided to close the resorts, this wasn't a financial decision for them to make. They made this decision on our behalf because that is what we hired them to do. If collectively (not sure what percentage of the ownership would qualify) decided that DVCM wasn't acting in our best interest, we could technically hire someone else to do the job. FWIW, I am not sure on what would have to happen, and how this would work.

When an owner rents out a non-refundable reservation, the owner is still responsible to fulfill their end of the contract. If they do not, the contract could either be considered null and void. The risk that the renter is taking on is that they agree that their deposit is non-refundable provided the owner still offers up the lodging. I think we can all agree that if the owner rents out their points and then cancelled the reservation and kept the points for their own use, the renter should be entitled to a refund.

Going back to my original point, when DVCM decided to shut down the resorts, they did so on our behalf. In other words, we shut down the resort ourselves. As an individual, I may not have decided to shut down the resort, but my paid representative did. We cannot claim that the resort shut down was to no fault of our own. We are the owners. We are the ones who hired DVCM. Our representative was the one who made that decision. We therefore did not fulfill our end of the contract. The renter did not sign up for the risk of resort shut downs. We did when we bought a deeded real estate interest.

For those who claim that the renter should bare some of the risk because they are getting a "deal" compared to Disney prices, I say to them, they are taking on some of the risk. The renter is renting up to 11 months in advance, and cannot cancel for any reason with the expectation of getting their deposit back. That is the risk they took by getting the "deal". They did not sign up for the risk of the owner cancelling the reservation (again, we are the ones who closed the resorts) and leaving them with nothing. If the resorts opened up but the renter cannot travel because of border issues, or their own countries restrictions, then I believe that is on the renter.

 

[disneykins]

We are owners and have been using our OKW every year from 1993 to about 2015. Kids are grown and we decided to do some cruising. We didn't trust the internet for renting out points but when we read on here about Davids we did a little research and found he lived less than a mile from us and his office was even closer, lol. So we stopped in for a visit to check him out. They seemed legit so we rented through them and used the money to pay for maintenance fees and the rest paid for most of our cruise. We continued using them 4 or 5 different times and it was very easy, no problems. We have one contract with him for the fall, hopefully that works out.
We dont have any points to rent in the future since we plan on using them, but if we wanted to rent them, I would still consider using Davids, if he survives. My theory being, he hasn't harmed me in any way so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
flame away, lol

 

[CanadaDisney05]

We are owners and have been using our OKW every year from 1993 to about 2015. Kids are grown and we decided to do some cruising. We didn't trust the internet for renting out points but when we read on here about Davids we did a little research and found he lived less than a mile from us and his office was even closer, lol. So we stopped in for a visit to check him out. They seemed legit so we rented through them and used the money to pay for maintenance fees and the rest paid for most of our cruise. We continued using them 4 or 5 different times and it was very easy, no problems. We have one contract with him for the fall, hopefully that works out.
We dont have any points to rent in the future since we plan on using them, but if we wanted to rent them, I would still consider using Davids, if he survives. My theory being, he hasn't harmed me in any way so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
flame away, lol

We'll see how this all shakes out, but for me, I'd rather take my chances with David's who is located in Canada, than having to apply for an ITIN, and file a US tax return.