Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Dracula]

We are owners and have been using our OKW every year from 1993 to about 2015. Kids are grown and we decided to do some cruising. We didn't trust the internet for renting out points but when we read on here about Davids we did a little research and found he lived less than a mile from us and his office was even closer, lol. So we stopped in for a visit to check him out. They seemed legit so we rented through them and used the money to pay for maintenance fees and the rest paid for most of our cruise. We continued using them 4 or 5 different times and it was very easy, no problems. We have one contract with him for the fall, hopefully that works out.
We dont have any points to rent in the future since we plan on using them, but if we wanted to rent them, I would still consider using Davids, if he survives. My theory being, he hasn't harmed me in any way so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
flame away, lol

Hoping for the best only works until the unimaginable happens. Assume your reservation in the fall is canceled, and your friendly neighbourhood David asks you to refund the 70%. You do it because everything worked well in the past. Now if you were to have points to rent again, would you still rent through David?

 

[disneykins]

Hoping for the best only works until the unimaginable happens. Assume your reservation in the fall is canceled, and your friendly neighbourhood David asks you to refund the 70%. You do it because everything worked well in the past. Now if you were to have points to rent again, would you still rent through David?

Not sure what I'd do. I'm not going to worry about it until it happens. If the renter asked to cancel now, I'd say no, I have a contract and I'm confident Disney resorts will be open in the fall. And they made this reservation in early April. If the resorts are still closed (or closed due to a new outbreak of something) I would deal with that at the time. And I'm sure that would be a small worry for me in the grand scheme of things, people dying, businesses crashing, unemployment, etc.

 

[cmrdgrs]

I'll throw in my 2 cents. FWIW, I am an owner, not a renter.

This may sound obvious, but from reading these boards over the past couple of months, it appears that a good portion of the DVC community doesn't really understand the difference. As an owner, I am an owner. I am not a renter. I own a portion of Saratoga Springs Resort. Disney Vacation Club Management is simply a hired management service. We (all of the owners at SSR) collectively pay them a management fee to provide the service of operating these resorts on our behalf.

When DVCM decided to close the resorts, this wasn't a financial decision for them to make. They made this decision on our behalf because that is what we hired them to do. If collectively (not sure what percentage of the ownership would qualify) decided that DVCM wasn't acting in our best interest, we could technically hire someone else to do the job. FWIW, I am not sure on what would have to happen, and how this would work.

When an owner rents out a non-refundable reservation, the owner is still responsible to fulfill their end of the contract. If they do not, the contract could either be considered null and void. The risk that the renter is taking on is that they agree that their deposit is non-refundable provided the owner still offers up the lodging. I think we can all agree that if the owner rents out their points and then cancelled the reservation and kept the points for their own use, the renter should be entitled to a refund.

Going back to my original point, when DVCM decided to shut down the resorts, they did so on our behalf. In other words, we shut down the resort ourselves. As an individual, I may not have decided to shut down the resort, but my paid representative did. We cannot claim that the resort shut down was to no fault of our own. We are the owners. We are the ones who hired DVCM. Our representative was the one who made that decision. We therefore did not fulfill our end of the contract. The renter did not sign up for the risk of resort shut downs. We did when we bought a deeded real estate interest.

For those who claim that the renter should bare some of the risk because they are getting a "deal" compared to Disney prices, I say to them, they are taking on some of the risk. The renter is renting up to 11 months in advance, and cannot cancel for any reason with the expectation of getting their deposit back. That is the risk they took by getting the "deal". They did not sign up for the risk of the owner cancelling the reservation (again, we are the ones who closed the resorts) and leaving them with nothing. If the resorts opened up but the renter cannot travel because of border issues, or their own countries restrictions, then I believe that is on the renter.

I agree with you CanadaDisney05 -- Although DVC Owners didn't have a "say" in the resorts closing, we do pay DVCM to make these decisions for us and this is the decision they made. For the owner, this was a risk that might not have been anticipated when they made the decision to rent their points, but it happened -- so now what?

For me, I just think the idea of all points being equal just doesn't work in the broker model. This whole situation with the resorts being shut down may happen again. For that reason, if I was a renter, I would only be willing to book if an owner was willing to fully refund me in the event of a resort closure. If an owner doesn't want to do that I think I would just book direct with Disney.

 

[cmrdgrs]

One more thing to throw out there -- If a DVC Member had purchased Travelex, those DVC members I know that put in a claim against Travelex (or tried to) were denied their claim because of RCI being an option for "saving" their points. Travelex did not pay out either in this situation.

Those that got paid their 70% from David that amount wasn't a whole lot more than what Travelex might have paid them had they paid on the claim.

 

[Dracula]

One more thing to throw out there -- If a DVC Member had purchased Travelex, those DVC members I know that put in a claim against Travelex (or tried to) were denied their claim because of RCI being an option for "saving" their points. Travelex did not pay out either in this situation.

Those that got paid their 70% from David that amount wasn't a whole lot more than what Travelex might have paid them had they paid on the claim.

Travelex for DVC owners is not a CFAR insurance, and resort closure due to pandemic is not one of the reasons covered. Unlike David, however, Travelex would reimburse additional travel expenses associated with the trip, like non-refundable airfare.

 

[cmrdgrs]

Travelex for DVC owners is not a CFAR insurance, and resort closure due to pandemic is not one of the reasons covered. Unlike David, however, Travelex would reimburse additional travel expenses associated with the trip, like non-refundable airfare.

I understand that Travelex is not = to Cancel for Any Reason Insurance. The person I know that submitted the claim was not denied the claim on the pandemic as not being a covered reason for coverage. They were denied the claim because they had the ability to move the points into RCI and therefore they did not lose their points.

All I was saying was that when David pays out 70% of the agreed upon price in their contract that the amount he is paying = more than the price per point that Travelex would pay on those same points. I wasn't looking at lost airfare or anything else.

 

[Bowen Family]

I'll throw in my 2 cents. FWIW, I am an owner, not a renter.

This may sound obvious, but from reading these boards over the past couple of months, it appears that a good portion of the DVC community doesn't really understand the difference. As an owner, I am an owner. I am not a renter. I own a portion of Saratoga Springs Resort. Disney Vacation Club Management is simply a hired management service. We (all of the owners at SSR) collectively pay them a management fee to provide the service of operating these resorts on our behalf.

When DVCM decided to close the resorts, this wasn't a financial decision for them to make. They made this decision on our behalf because that is what we hired them to do. If collectively (not sure what percentage of the ownership would qualify) decided that DVCM wasn't acting in our best interest, we could technically hire someone else to do the job. FWIW, I am not sure on what would have to happen, and how this would work.

When an owner rents out a non-refundable reservation, the owner is still responsible to fulfill their end of the contract. If they do not, the contract could either be considered null and void. The risk that the renter is taking on is that they agree that their deposit is non-refundable provided the owner still offers up the lodging. I think we can all agree that if the owner rents out their points and then cancelled the reservation and kept the points for their own use, the renter should be entitled to a refund.

Going back to my original point, when DVCM decided to shut down the resorts, they did so on our behalf. In other words, we shut down the resort ourselves. As an individual, I may not have decided to shut down the resort, but my paid representative did. We cannot claim that the resort shut down was to no fault of our own. We are the owners. We are the ones who hired DVCM. Our representative was the one who made that decision. We therefore did not fulfill our end of the contract. The renter did not sign up for the risk of resort shut downs. We did when we bought a deeded real estate interest.

For those who claim that the renter should bare some of the risk because they are getting a "deal" compared to Disney prices, I say to them, they are taking on some of the risk. The renter is renting up to 11 months in advance, and cannot cancel for any reason with the expectation of getting their deposit back. That is the risk they took by getting the "deal". They did not sign up for the risk of the owner cancelling the reservation (again, we are the ones who closed the resorts) and leaving them with nothing. If the resorts opened up but the renter cannot travel because of border issues, or their own countries restrictions, then I believe that is on the renter.

Now that is a refreshing take! But I think you may have just got yourself uninvited from the DVC member christmas party.

 

[cmrdgrs]

Now that is a refreshing take! But I think you may have just got yourself uninvited from the DVC member christmas party.

But.... this is why [some] private owners who rent have 100% reimbursed renters.

It's the middleman broker situation that is changing the dynamic of what owners will do and the limitations brokers are placing on owners for what they would like to do which is gumming up the works.

 

[cm8]

But.... this is why [some] private owners who rent have 100% reimbursed renters.

It's the middleman broker situation that is changing the dynamic of what owners will do and the limitations brokers are placing on owners for what they would like to do which is gumming up the works.

Exactly

 

[cmrdgrs]

We are owners and have been using our OKW every year from 1993 to about 2015. Kids are grown and we decided to do some cruising. We didn't trust the internet for renting out points but when we read on here about Davids we did a little research and found he lived less than a mile from us and his office was even closer, lol. So we stopped in for a visit to check him out. They seemed legit so we rented through them and used the money to pay for maintenance fees and the rest paid for most of our cruise. We continued using them 4 or 5 different times and it was very easy, no problems. We have one contract with him for the fall, hopefully that works out.
We dont have any points to rent in the future since we plan on using them, but if we wanted to rent them, I would still consider using Davids, if he survives. My theory being, he hasn't harmed me in any way so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
flame away, lol

I'm sorry to read that you think you will be "flamed." I don't really think anyone is interested in flaming anyone else. Heated discussion -- yes, I think when people are losing money (as renters) or losing points (as owners) they can get, shall we say, passionate....

If you're happy with David, I'd say keep using him.

IMPO, I think you are foolish to hand over to a broker 22.5% of the "profit" you could put in your own pocket -- simply to be a matchmaker for you. You could use this 22.5% to pay even more towards your MFs or more towards your cruises, but they are your points, if you are happy with David and his services, why change anything?

 

[lovethesun12]

@Bowen Family I was like you. After extensive research, I wanted to try various DVC resorts to see which one was our future "home". I had previously stayed at Poly (like 15 times!), but never at my other two choices: BCV and BLT. So, I rented some points. I stayed at BCV at the end of food and wine, and BLT at the beginning of flower and garden. I'm really glad I did, because both my wife and I both decided that BLT was perfect for us.

When we purchased our first resale contract, it came completely loaded. We banked the current year points. Because we had planned to go somewhere other than WDW the next year, we suddenly had 320 points we needed to get rid of inside 18 months. We decided to rent them through David's, and had a good experience with that. Later, when we bought an add-on that also came loaded, we had another 60 points we needed to use or lose. Those we rented ourselves through disboards. It was an easy process once we had someone who was realistic about availability and how many points were needed for his desired stay. Since then, we've added on again, but banked the points and then used them the next year.

So, in answer to your question as to what made me decide to rent points, it was simply because we (or anyone in the family) had no use for them before they expired.

So why not let them expire?

 

[lovethesun12]

Now that is a refreshing take! But I think you may have just got yourself uninvited from the DVC member christmas party.

Yes. The one where all the renters hand over 5-10k and the owners give them fresh air in return and wonder why the renters are feeling so "entitled".

ETA: Disclaimer: Yes I do realize some owners are trying to rebook and give refunds. This applies to the ones who think renters are entitled for wanting something for the thousands they spent while they are keeping their points and 70%.

 

[CmdrThor]

As an owner, one thing this has taught me: If I do rent out my points, I am renting out specific points that can be used for a reservation and not necessarily a specific reservation. Renting those specific points may be conditioned on initially acquiring a specific reservation...but you are buying the points, and not the reservation those points are backing.

i.e. you get "X number of Feb 2020 use year points, that can be used for a reservation between now and Jan 31, 2021. If you contact me 2 weeks before the banking deadline, i'll bank them in to be able to be used for a reservation from Feb 1, 2021 to Jan 31, 2022. Your reservation at ABC Resort for X sized room for Y-Z dates is already booked. You can have one courtesy rebooking, subject to availability. Additional rebookings cost $20 each, subject to availability. No changes within 45 days of check in, Points not used before they expire are forfeit and no refunds will be provided" Something like that. At this point, I would also be sure to include a resort closure clause, where i'll do a free rebook if the resort is closed through no fault of the owner or renter...subject to points usage restrictions previously established...giving the renter the same flexibility that DVC gives me to use those points...banking deadlines, waived holding, extended usage, etc...again, all subject to availability..

i has the same thought initially. But as I thought about it more I think I am going to be up front that a resort closure equals a refund. I will also offer modifications for a small fee, but if I am charging a certain price for a confirmed reservation, part of that price is due to the fact that the reservation is desirable and difficult to get. They won’t get the same value rescheduling. Additionally, I am already seeing most renters looking for owners saying up front they want it in writing that they will get a refund if the resort is closed. It’s the right thing to do as an owner, and it is very rare. If it does happen, I will either attempt to re-rent, use the points on my own, or donate a reservation to a friend or family.

 

[YourEveryDayAdam]

i has the same thought initially. But as I thought about it more I think I am going to be up front that a resort closure equals a refund. I will also offer modifications for a small fee, but if I am charging a certain price for a confirmed reservation, part of that price is due to the fact that the reservation is desirable and difficult to get. They won’t get the same value rescheduling. Additionally, I am already seeing most renters looking for owners saying up front they want it in writing that they will get a refund if the resort is closed. It’s the right thing to do as an owner, and it is very rare. If it does happen, I will either attempt to re-rent, use the points on my own, or donate a reservation to a friend or family.

That is definitely very fair. If that's something the rental market demanded from owners, then I would only ever likely rent current year points, and only for reservations that are not within my banking window. But, I think at that point I would just forgo renting my points and either double up and stay in a 1 bedroom, go for a longer trip, or gift them to a family member. I'd rather use the points when they are in their prime rather than have to try to figure out what to do with potentially distressed points.

 

[CraigInPA]

So why not let them expire?

I paid the dues on those points. Do the math and you'll see that it was thousands of dollars that would have been wasted by not utilizing those points in some way.

 

[CraigInPA]

i has the same thought initially. But as I thought about it more I think I am going to be up front that a resort closure equals a refund. I will also offer modifications for a small fee, but if I am charging a certain price for a confirmed reservation, part of that price is due to the fact that the reservation is desirable and difficult to get. They won’t get the same value rescheduling. Additionally, I am already seeing most renters looking for owners saying up front they want it in writing that they will get a refund if the resort is closed. It’s the right thing to do as an owner, and it is very rare. If it does happen, I will either attempt to re-rent, use the points on my own, or donate a reservation to a friend or family.

I think the whole concept of refunding non-refundable reservations is crazy!

Let the status of the points dictate what happens next. If the renter rented points (converted to a reservation) and the resort closes, they can still use the points for another reservation while those points are still valid. If they don't want to travel during those periods, or there is no availability, then the renter will take the full loss. Be up front with the renter as to when the points expire, and offer re-bookings (for a nominal fee) for convenience. If you want to be bold and daring, offer a 50% cash refund for any cancellation more than 31 days before check-in. There is absolutely no need to follow the broker's (broken) business model.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

I think the whole concept of refunding non-refundable reservations is crazy!

Let the status of the points dictate what happens next. If the renter rented points (converted to a reservation) and the resort closes, they can still use the points for another reservation while those points are still valid. If they don't want to travel during those periods, or there is no availability, then the renter will take the full loss. Be up front with the renter as to when the points expire, and offer re-bookings (for a nominal fee) for convenience. If you want to be bold and daring, offer a 50% cash refund for any cancellation more than 31 days before check-in. There is absolutely no need to follow the broker's (broken) business model.

See the bolded part. I think this is the biggest grey area. With the brokers it seems like it is clear that as a renter, you are renting the reservation, not points. You never get access to the points. You can't do what you want with them. You can't go ahead and re-rent them out to a third party. In a private transaction, it really depends what the the contract states.

With no contract, my personal thought would be:

1) if the owner is taking points and bookings reservation on behalf of the renter, they are renting a reservation.

2) if the owner is transferring points into another owners account, then they are renting points.

 

[CraigInPA]

See the bolded part. I think this is the biggest grey area. With the brokers it seems like it is clear that as a renter, you are renting the reservation, not points. You never get access to the points. You can't do what you want with them. You can't go ahead and re-rent them out to a third party. In a private transaction, it really depends what the the contract states.

With no contract, my personal thought would be:

1) if the owner is taking points and bookings reservation on behalf of the renter, they are renting a reservation.

2) if the owner is transferring points into another owners account, then they are renting points.

The brokers have created a model where all points have the same value, whether they are banked or current year, or whether they are used for a reservation that is within or outside their banking window. This, as we see, is a broken model. Banked points with a fixed end date that cannot be extended are inherently less valuable than ones which can be banked.

The owner maintains the points, and converts those points into a reservation. The renter never gains access to the actual points. The points are reserved for the use of the renter by the owner, and the renter directs the owner what to "spend" those points on. The contract would dictate whether the points can be re-rented to a third party. I expect every contract to prohibit that.

One is required by the DVC POS to utilize a written contract when renting, but to address your other points:
1. Semantics. The contract specifies what the renter is renting. I doubt that anyone will be as stupid as David's and continue to rent "reservations" again.
2. Perhaps. Technically, transferred points cannot be sold.

 

[MIDisFan]

I'll throw in my 2 cents. FWIW, I am an owner, not a renter.

This may sound obvious, but from reading these boards over the past couple of months, it appears that a good portion of the DVC community doesn't really understand the difference. As an owner, I am an owner. I am not a renter. I own a portion of Saratoga Springs Resort. Disney Vacation Club Management is simply a hired management service. We (all of the owners at SSR) collectively pay them a management fee to provide the service of operating these resorts on our behalf.

When DVCM decided to close the resorts, this wasn't a financial decision for them to make. They made this decision on our behalf because that is what we hired them to do. If collectively (not sure what percentage of the ownership would qualify) decided that DVCM wasn't acting in our best interest, we could technically hire someone else to do the job. FWIW, I am not sure on what would have to happen, and how this would work.

When an owner rents out a non-refundable reservation, the owner is still responsible to fulfill their end of the contract. If they do not, the contract could either be considered null and void. The risk that the renter is taking on is that they agree that their deposit is non-refundable provided the owner still offers up the lodging. I think we can all agree that if the owner rents out their points and then cancelled the reservation and kept the points for their own use, the renter should be entitled to a refund.

Going back to my original point, when DVCM decided to shut down the resorts, they did so on our behalf. In other words, we shut down the resort ourselves. As an individual, I may not have decided to shut down the resort, but my paid representative did. We cannot claim that the resort shut down was to no fault of our own. We are the owners. We are the ones who hired DVCM. Our representative was the one who made that decision. We therefore did not fulfill our end of the contract. The renter did not sign up for the risk of resort shut downs. We did when we bought a deeded real estate interest.

For those who claim that the renter should bare some of the risk because they are getting a "deal" compared to Disney prices, I say to them, they are taking on some of the risk. The renter is renting up to 11 months in advance, and cannot cancel for any reason with the expectation of getting their deposit back. That is the risk they took by getting the "deal". They did not sign up for the risk of the owner cancelling the reservation (again, we are the ones who closed the resorts) and leaving them with nothing. If the resorts opened up but the renter cannot travel because of border issues, or their own countries restrictions, then I believe that is on the renter.

I am a DVC owner as well but you have to realize that in reality we are all renters. We purchased a right to use DVC until 2054 for SSR. After that, who knows if they will offer an extension. While I like to believe DVD has our best interests in heart, it's not always the case. I don't think Disney shut down simply on our behalf. The state of Florida had a lot more input than members lol. I understand the point you are trying to make. This whole situation is new territory. The brokers were not prepared for something like this, but regardless, the burden to make it right should fall on their shoulders, not renters and owners. If an owner is trying to keep their points and the 70% initial payment, shame on them. Now that DVC has extended points there's no reason owners can't make new reservations. If you gave a Broker 200 points to rent, what difference does it make if he makes a new reservation with them. Yes, he's getting a second commission, but let him sleep with that.

I feel the brokers should have given renters the option for a refund, credit, or rebook. They should have went to owners and said, we are going to pay u the remaining 30%, but we own the rights to those points now and will take on the risk of the expiration of those points. At least one of the brokers showed their true colors a couple years back and I would never use one again. You would think a business that does really well, some say in the millions of profits a year, would take care of their customers. I believe that situation is still on the BBB website.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

The brokers have created a model where all points have the same value, whether they are banked or current year, or whether they are used for a reservation that is within or outside their banking window. This, as we see, is a broken model. Banked points with a fixed end date that cannot be extended are inherently less valuable than ones which can be banked.

I think this lends credence to the fact that the renter is renting a reservation, not the points themselves. The renter is never given any indication of the type of points, restrictions on the points, risks to the points etc.... The renter requests a specific reservation, and the broker finds an owner that can make that reservation. IMO, the renter is renting a reservation, not the points themselves..... and I'm saying this as an owner, not a renter.