Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[WDWEPCOT]

If David’s goes under all is not lost - in this thread someone went to a LOT of trouble on several occasions to explain the whole process of credit cards in regards to a business that goes bankrupt- please read the thread if you are concerned
Also in this very long thread it is discussed doing a chargeback After you took the voucher - you may wish to read up on that one too
Credit card chargebacks are from date of expected services in most cases - all covered in the excellent piece posted earlier

Thank you for referring me to bone up on contract law but alas I have no need to do such things as the saying goes Been There Done That Bought The shirt - I appreciate your attempts to assist but my ships sailed months ago - just so you know I have horses in both races as owner who is renting out points and being screwed over by David’s and as renter who David’s tried to screw. You will gain no sympathy from me - this man and his company care none for his customers or clients or the word of law
One final note - there are MANY excellent Owners (and renters) on this thread please do not make blind assumptions that Owners are just taking 70% and their points and running - it is NOT the case ! It does a major disservice to everyone!

Renters - please don’t feel all is lost - please read this thread - you may find some help -

Yes this thread has been ugly and yes this thread has been super awesome ! Take the good with the bad! Life is not all rainbows and sunshine ! Sorry if I upset you!!

 

[meryll83]

Very pleased to say it's finally my turn to report some good news on my chargeback!

We were due to travel to Disneyland from the UK back in April, and rented points through David's to stay at VGC. After the resort closed and chaos ensued, we eventually raised a chargeback later that month after initially trying to get a refund from David's, being asked to wait for the voucher, and then being very disappointed when we saw what the terms of the voucher actually were.
My bank (based in the UK) initiated the chargeback fairly quickly and returned the funds to my account, with the caveat that David's had 45 days to challenge this...
About a week before the 45 days were up, my bank let me know David's had challenged my claim, based on vouchers being an acceptable alternative to a cash refund under Canadian law...

However, my bank weren't satisfied that evidence had been provided by David's to validate this, so advised they had now given David's another 45 days to provide this.
Cue more waiting, but yesterday that 45 days was up, and no further contact was made by David's, so it's good to hear that those returned funds are now permanently mine!

Good luck to everyone else still going through the process, or trying to work things out with David's or their renters/owners!

As a sort of related aside... I may end up with some of my own DVC points that I am unable to use before they're due to expire, so might have to consider renting them out. I think I 'd still feel more comfortable using a firm with expertise rather than doing this independently, so have there been any other DVC rental companies that have handled the pandemic situation well, and that others would recommend using? (Not sure whether recommendations are allowed on the boards, so please feel free to PM me if not!)

 

[Bowen Family]

Very pleased to say it's finally my turn to report some good news on my chargeback!

We were due to travel to Disneyland from the UK back in April, and rented points through David's to stay at VGC. After the resort closed and chaos ensued, we eventually raised a chargeback later that month after initially trying to get a refund from David's, being asked to wait for the voucher, and then being very disappointed when we saw what the terms of the voucher actually were.
My bank (based in the UK) initiated the chargeback fairly quickly and returned the funds to my account, with the caveat that David's had 45 days to challenge this...
About a week before the 45 days were up, my bank let me know David's had challenged my claim, based on vouchers being an acceptable alternative to a cash refund under Canadian law...

However, my bank weren't satisfied that evidence had been provided by David's to validate this, so advised they had now given David's another 45 days to provide this.
Cue more waiting, but yesterday that 45 days was up, and no further contact was made by David's, so it's good to hear that those returned funds are now permanently mine!

Good luck to everyone else still going through the process, or trying to work things out with David's or their renters/owners!

As a sort of related aside... I may end up with some of my own DVC points that I am unable to use before they're due to expire, so might have to consider renting them out. I think I 'd still feel more comfortable using a firm with expertise rather than doing this independently, so have there been any other DVC rental companies that have handled the pandemic situation well, and that others would recommend using? (Not sure whether recommendations are allowed on the boards, so please feel free to PM me if not!)

I live in Ontario where David’s operates and in researching my options I discovered that our provincial government did in fact change the Ontario Travel Industry Act along these lines as a sort of lifeline to the travel industry following COVID.

Pre-COVID, if your prepaid accommodations or services were unavailable through no fault of your own, you had the OPTION of accepting a vendor’s proposed voucher/credit, or receiving a full refund.

As a temporary COVID-related measure, the government allowed travel industry vendors (agents/hotels/airlines/etc) sole discretion to offer credits/vouchers to affected customers.

I think David’s took this temporary measure a step too far when they additionally inserted a clause that would allow them to modify or cancel the credit without any recourse to the consumer. Just speculation on my part, but absent that red flag, I suspect I would have lost my own chargeback claim. But I singled out that bad faith clause in my submission, and was successful without any apparent defence/rebuttal from David’s.

 

[Sandisw]

The owner was unable to make the points available. The points were returned to the owner. Florida like every other state has an obligation of good faith and fair dealing expectation that all contracts have to operate under. Florida rental law clearly states that this obligation applies to all rental contracts in the state. If this ever actually goes to court there is no way the owners get to keep the money for canceled reservations.

However, the contract doesn’t specifically say the 70% is owed back, The owner may simply be on the hook to provide the same points to the broker for renting again.

Again, its been gone back and forth and given that his new contracts are specific, I venture that his legal team helped him realize the flaw and it’s why we have not heard of owners being sued by him,

He didn’t want the contract frustrated exactly because then he had to give renters the cash.

I do agree that unless a court steps in to determine exactly what was rented and what was not, we can all speculate. But, I do not think any longer the return of the funds was a given, especially since the owner did not receive all the funds owed.

 

[Bearval]

I live in Ontario where David’s operates and in researching my options I discovered that our provincial government did in fact change the Ontario Travel Industry Act along these lines as a sort of lifeline to the travel industry following COVID.

Pre-COVID, if your prepaid accommodations or services were unavailable through no fault of your own, you had the OPTION of accepting a vendor’s proposed voucher/credit, or receiving a full refund.

As a temporary COVID-related measure, the government allowed travel industry vendors (agents/hotels/airlines/etc) sole discretion to offer credits/vouchers to affected customers.

I think David’s took this temporary measure a step too far when they additionally inserted a clause that would allow them to modify or cancel the credit without any recourse to the consumer. Just speculation on my part, but absent that red flag, I suspect I would have lost my own chargeback claim. But I singled out that bad faith clause in my submission, and was successful without any apparent defence/rebuttal from David’s.

I would think that the changes the OTIA made might only be enforceable in Ontario or Canada. This would be why most if not all of the charge backs from the US have been successful.

 

[CraigInPA]

The contract can state Canadian law applies but the property being rented is in Florida and if any of this would go to court Florida law would most likely apply. If Canadian law would apply in Canada there is a duty of honest performance implied in all contracts regardless of what the contract states.

You are clearly not a lawyer.

When venue and applicable law are specified in a contract, you can't just pop into your local courthouse and expect them to invalidate both of these in favor of having the case heard in that courthouse. If both parties agreed to the venue and applicable law change, it *might* happen. But, I don't see any small claims judge accepting a case involving a company in Canada and litigants located anywhere else on the planet. You'd have to go to federal court, where the cost to file would exceed the total value of any rental.

 

[Brianstl]

You are clearly not a lawyer.

When venue and applicable law are specified in a contract, you can't just pop into your local courthouse and expect them to invalidate both of these in favor of having the case heard in that courthouse. If both parties agreed to the venue and applicable law change, it *might* happen. But, I don't see any small claims judge accepting a case involving a company in Canada and litigants located anywhere else on the planet. You'd have to go to federal court, where the cost to file would exceed the total value of any rental.

This involves the rental of real estate. In those cases 99.99999% of the time jurisdiction and venue is determined by where the real estate is located regardless of what the contract states. Just because something is written into a contract doesn’t make it so.

 

[CraigInPA]

This involves the rental of real estate. In those cases 99.99999% of the time jurisdiction and venue is determined by where the real estate is located regardless of what the contract states. Just because something is written into a contract doesn’t make it so.

You're clearly not a lawyer. Contract terms, in general, govern unless the resulting agreement is illegal.

 

[Brianstl]

You're clearly not a lawyer. Contract terms, in general, govern unless the resulting agreement is illegal.

You can't transfer jurisdiction in a rental contract from the state the immovable property is located in to another state much less another country. Choice of forum and choice of law clauses are worthless because the laws governing are those in the state where the property is located at the time the right to use that property is created.

Also, I never said I was a lawyer.

 

[Dixie1337]

I got an email saying that someone wants to take over my december AKL reservation. I'm so happy I could cry! Now I'm just waiting and hoping the owner follows through. I'm nervous AF. If they change their mind about re-assigning the reservation I'm out of options. If they follow through I'll receive a cash refund less a $3 per point fee, which I think is fair.

 

[VivalaDisney]

You can't transfer jurisdiction in a rental contract from the state the immovable property is located in to another state much less another country. Choice of forum and choice of law clauses are worthless because the laws governing are those in the state where the property is located at the time the right to use that property is created.

Also, I never said I was a lawyer.

DVC points can be used for resort stays at DVC properties in three states. DVC points can be used for cruises; the ones showing on DVC's website depart from seven US states and territories, and at least five countries. Under your knowledge of jurisdiction for contracts involving a vacation club, which state or country should govern for a reservation at HHI? At Aulani? And where would jurisdiction be when DVC points are used for a reservation on a cruise which departs England and arrives in Spain, when the points owner lives in Illinois, the points renter lives in Missouri, the DVC points are from an Aulani contract, and David's is in Canada? There is a reason jurisdiction is set forth in contracts.

 

[Brianstl]

DVC points can be used for resort stays at DVC properties in three states. DVC points can be used for cruises; the ones showing on DVC's website depart from seven US states and territories, and at least five countries. Under your knowledge of jurisdiction for contracts involving a vacation club, which state or country should govern for a reservation at HHI? At Aulani? And where would jurisdiction be when DVC points are used for a reservation on a cruise which departs England and arrives in Spain, when the points owner lives in Illinois, the points renter lives in Missouri, the DVC points are from an Aulani contract, and David's is in Canada? There is a reason jurisdiction is set forth in contracts.

The original David's contract stated you are renting points that represent accommodations at a specific location in Florida. With those contracts you aren't renting a cruise. The contract that the owner purchased states the owner is buying a real estate interest. The owner is renting out their real estate interest. That interest is immovable property.

Disney might call it Disney Vacation Club, but owners don't own a club membership. It is a timeshare and the owner bought, as stated in their contract, real estate. The owner pays taxes on that real estate. The owner is renting out use of that real estate.

 

[WDWEPCOT]

Nope. I bought a time share I suggest you research time shares
I DO NOT own the real estate - DVC does I purchased an interest in it which is only good for a stated number if years per my contract with DVC
If I rent my points my contract with David’s states the renter is renting a points which represent a reservation - it never stated real estate .
I’m not really sure what your point is with all of this but I would like to expand on one thing stated
Yup just because something is written into a contract doesn’t make it so - per Chase non refundable - you can’t take someone’s money and not give them the product or service regardless of the contract - you are correct there!!

 

[Sandisw]

Lets remember that this thread has gone back and forth many times in what an owners obligation was when resorts were closed and unless David’s chose to take an owner to court to force them to return funds, and had won, everything else is pure speculation,

Now that resorts are open, other than Aulani and VGC, it’s more about owners and renters dealing with people uncomfortable or unable to go.

 

[Dean Marino]

Boy, with all of this? Glad we bailed on any renting....

We donated our points, to a lovely family within driving distance of WDW. We feel pretty good, no one can sue us, and WDW does not get to steal those points for rental .

 

[WDWEPCOT]

That was very nice of you I’m glad you were able to do that !

 

[NARM Again]

I just found this thread today as I’ve been and have read quite a few pages but haven’t had the time to go through everything. In Feb I rented my points for a reservation in December but the Renter has said that they do not want to go. David’s have stated that they are looking for someone to take over the reservation but I’m thinking about cancelling and returning the 70% but only it benefits the Renter.

Renters - how much were you offered back if the Owner cancelled and returned the 70%?

Owners - how long did you have to return the 70% and were there any additional fees?

 

[starry_solo]

I just found this thread today as I’ve been and have read quite a few pages but haven’t had the time to go through everything. In Feb I rented my points for a reservation in December but the Renter has said that they do not want to go. David’s have stated that they are looking for someone to take over the reservation but I’m thinking about cancelling and returning the 70% but only it benefits the Renter.

Renters - how much were you offered back if the Owner cancelled and returned the 70%?

Owners - how long did you have to return the 70% and were there any additional fees?

AFAIK from reading these hundreds of pages, renters are only offered the voucher. But then again, none of the owners have cancelled the reservation as I recall.

 

[Sandisw]

I just found this thread today as I’ve been and have read quite a few pages but haven’t had the time to go through everything. In Feb I rented my points for a reservation in December but the Renter has said that they do not want to go. David’s have stated that they are looking for someone to take over the reservation but I’m thinking about cancelling and returning the 70% but only it benefits the Renter.

Renters - how much were you offered back if the Owner cancelled and returned the 70%?

Owners - how long did you have to return the 70% and were there any additional fees?

As mentioned, the process was a voucher. He has given renters cash back minus a fee in order to Re rent reservations now resorts are open.

I would contact him and say you are willing to cancel and return the funds .on the condition the bulk goes to the renter.

You do have the renters information so I would CC them as part of the email. Worst he says is no and you then decide to stick with it or return and walk away.

 

[dragonflymom]

But then again, none of the owners have cancelled the reservation as I recall.

The reason why owners here do not cancel is that you would be violating contract terms if you cancel unilaterally (even if you return the 70%) since your obligation is to make the room available on the reservation date(s). If you want your points back, then work with David's and the renters to see whether they can release you from your obligations. Otherwise, the option of re-renting is definitely worth exploring since December is a popular time and depending on your resort and room type, it may be easily re-rentable.