Deep dive into Fastpass/Genie+ on Defunctland

[pixiedust2u]

There are threads on these boards hundreds of pages long in which even obsessive, seasoned Disney veterans are hopelessly confused about how Genie+ works. Is the kind of visitor who never bothered to learn about Fastpass+ going to do any better with Genie+?

And even if they do, the bottom line is that they, just like the rest of us, won’t be able to skip more than a couple of lines on highly desired rides on crowded days—despite Disney’s marketing making them think that they could use Genie+ once on each ride in the park.

The Defunctland video does a great job of explaining the problem with Fastpass+ and it’s predecessors. I’m not convinced that Genie+ solves that problem at all, or accomplishes any goal other than revenue generation.

Hoping to watch some of this today while wrapping presents! Thanks for posting.

grasshopper you make such a good point regarding guests who didn’t preplan previously with FP+, they aren’t going to do much better with genie+. Both systems require advanced research, understanding and planning. Just because you don’t “activate” your genie+ until 7am vs 60 days out you, still need to know what the heck your doing!

 

[kathy884]

I get what you’re saying. And, in theory, that is what Genie+ is intended to accomplish. But in practice, Genie+ seems to be a failure when measured against this goal. Will the first-time visitor be knowledgeable, organized, and quick enough to snag a SDD Genie+ LL at precisely 7:00 a.m.? And even if they are, their return time is likely to be for late afternoon or evening. Will they be savvy enough to pull a second LL at precisely 11:00 (even though the app doesn’t tell you when you’re next eligible)? Etc.

There are threads on these boards hundreds of pages long in which even obsessive, seasoned Disney veterans are hopelessly confused about how Genie+ works. Is the kind of visitor who never bothered to learn about Fastpass+ going to do any better with Genie+?

And even if they do, the bottom line is that they, just like the rest of us, won’t be able to skip more than a couple of lines on highly desired rides on crowded days—despite Disney’s marketing making them think that they could use Genie+ once on each ride in the park.

The Defunctland video does a great job of explaining the problem with Fastpass+ and it’s predecessors. I’m not convinced that Genie+ solves that problem at all, or accomplishes any goal other than revenue generation.

I didn't take the video as saying that Genie + in any way was an improvement. I took it more as a "Here's how we got to this New Monster" and "Why they weren't happy with the old monster and older iterations". The new hybrid approach "Genie +" sure looks like it was formed by a committee as an individual wouldn't come up with something so convoluted. It sounds like the wishful thinking is that the pay system might if they are lucky mean fewer people will buy it, so maybe an improvement for stand by lines for those who don't research and a better guest experience for them. But reality may be and from what I am reading might already be that more people than anticipated are buying it/will buy it, so like you said just generate more dollars and not really improve most guest experiences. For those who do research as to how it works, are offsite visitors, and are willing to pay the little extra, it does IMHO put them in a slightly better position than before to compete with Disney hotel guests for coveted shorter queue opportunities for some of the headliners, but at the same time the offsite guests loose all opportunities for rope drop that only Disney hotel guests have now. Also like you said you won't be able to skip more than a couple of stand by lines on highly desired rides.

It sounds too like people need to place their own limits too on how much they try to use this (balance a few shorter lines with being too tied to the phone) -- IT bugs appear to be a big part of the tied to the phone piece with this rollout. I remember so much complaining on these boards about the magic bands and fastpass+ and IT bugs when this came out, and total disgust with the reserving a ride 90 or 60 days in advance (how ridiculous). The complaining on this new system seems very similar to me, not worse (and another problematic IT rollout that isn't helping matters just like before).

 

[TioAdis78]

Yes, I think most of us here were friends of the Fastpass Monster and learned the tips and tricks for proper care and feeding of the monster on these boards.

It's quite something to hear that the statistics bear what many of us knew empirically, that for some of us to be friends with the monster, many others had to be eaten by it.

 

[Rileygirl]

I so really enjoyed watching this video. Honestly, it was so well done. I don’t know how they got animal kingdom or magic kingdom numbers and flow on those days, but if they were accurate, this was a spectacular analysis. Disney should ask to borrow the design.

I think there was one large flaw in the analysis by defunctland and by Disney, and I, the humble disboarder will now show the fatal flaw in both sides thinking. (Tongue in cheek here - in case you have not had your morning coffee)

The monster fans knew how to appease the monster by flinging knowledge, research, planning, and up to date information found in places like this board, in order to have a great experience at the WDW. The monster did not eat them during stand by lines era, fast pass era, or the fast pass plus era. But doing some research on these boards and other places, I think the Genie is swallowing us up no matter what we try to throw at it.

The problem is WHO the monster fans are. They are not just Disney fans that populate this board, a small portion of the population depicted by defunctland or as envisioned by Disney (obviously guessing on the mouses mind) There is an entire industry of fans grown, cultivated, and enslaved by Disney themselves, and it’s called DVC.

DVC members are savvy people and ones who expect an enjoyable experience. It’s absolutely true that they won’t need to experience every ride on their trip, but they DO expect to enjoy more than three attractions in a day. The rising price of the AP, the uncertainty if the AP will always be available, the frustration of using Genie to get any kind of day scheduled, this is punch to the DVC gut.

If Genie cannot work to some semblance of satisfaction for monster lovers, it’s going to impact an entire division of WDW, not just a small percentage of Disney fanatics.

I have been watching Disney resale on and off since Feb of last year. I was fascinated by how much stripped contracts were going for, and the how FEW contracts were out there, compared to several years ago. Perhaps watching the availability for contracts might be a pulse point on how the DVC community is reacting to Genie.

To sum up my point: There is quite a large army of dedicated monster lovers that have been cultivated for many years by Disney itself, and if the monster consistently eats them no matter what they throw at it (including money) well, they will probably just take their wallets and leave.

 

[Grasshopper2016]

I didn't take the video as saying that Genie + in any way was an improvement. I took it more as a "Here's how we got to this New Monster" and "Why they weren't happy with the old monster and older iterations".

Agreed. Someone above suggested that Genie+ is, in fact, an improvement. I was just disagreeing with that.

There is quite a large army of dedicated monster lovers that have been cultivated for many years by Disney itself, and if the monster consistently eats them no matter what they throw at it (including money) well, they will probably just take their wallets and leave.

Agreed as well. And it's not just DVC and the handful of fanatics who post on boards like this. It is all of the regular visitors who have made a family tradition out of regular Disney trips, and expect a certain value for their money.

 

[T-Daddy]

I don't find it counter-intuitive. (Edit) If you're giving a poor experience to a new customer, espeically when they've spent a ton of money, you will likley lose them forever.

Yes you want to treat your most loyal customers favourably, but not at the heavy detriment of new customers that you're also looking to make into long-term loyal customers.

Disney was not treating new customers poorly. The new customer is just ignorant or lazy about gaming the system. All of us were once newbs. We survived. We got experienced. Friends gave us tips. We read the blogs. It's really not that complicated to book fast passes. And I see nothing wrong with giving people staying on property a 30 day leg up booking fastpasses. That is a perk for paying inflated prices for Disney's mediocre hotels.

 

[jimmymc]

Hoping to watch some of this today while wrapping presents! Thanks for posting.

grasshopper you make such a good point regarding guests who didn’t preplan previously with FP+, they aren’t going to do much better with genie+. Both systems require advanced research, understanding and planning. Just because you don’t “activate” your genie+ until 7am vs 60 days out you, still need to know what the heck your doing!

I disagree. It's like what Defunctland mentioned with paper fastpasses: even if you have no idea what Genie+ is until your first park day, you can learn about it and be on even territory your second day. With FP+, you were already 60 days too late and had no way to recover. Learning the system 6 months out or the day before doesn't give you an advantage.

 

[Rileygirl]

I disagree. It's like what Defunctland mentioned with paper fastpasses: even if you have no idea what Genie+ is until your first park day, you can learn about it and be on even territory your second day. With FP+, you were already 60 days too late and had no way to recover. Learning the system 6 months out or the day before doesn't give you an advantage.

I think I am more in line with grasshopper. Although it’s POSSIBLE that a new guest could come up to speed on the second day, I am going to say that is very unlikely. Certainly cast members won’t be showing new users the tweaks and go around to possibly maximize their experience with Genie , and there will be no time for the guest to educate themselves on the best use while in the theme park.

At the end of the day, they will STILL be outgunned by knowledgeable vets. What is the quality of their experience? That remains to be seen, because perhaps a day with tiki birds, pirates, and buzz will be exciting enough for them to have a great time. Disney, you know, is just magically themed and can be a bit jaw dropping just walking into that park.

But grasshopper also brings up another thought provoking comment. WDW has been going since 1971, it’s not only DVC that has a huge contingency of monster lovers, but there is also a huge contingency of ap holders that are monster lovers. And also local resident monster lovers. And once every three year monster lovers. Off site penny wise monster lovers. I think the question may be twofold
1. How many monster lovers compared to first time users go to disney on any given day.
2. How the internet with its instantaneous delivery of information can impact even first time goers over the next 5 years.

Now people might say, oh, not sure if the internet will really impact that statistic, but I am going to tell you, five years ago when fast pass plus was going to be installed, the number of people who debated with me on this board arguing that no one would plan their fast passes sixty days out. HA!

But think about this, if 70% of the daily visitor comes to disney prepared to throw fruit at the monster, Disney is just going to end up with a monster the size of a black hole. And I honestly think that with the internet, and the dollar cost of a disney trip, it’s not just fans and fanatics who will be scouring the internet, Tik Tok, utube and the like on how to do a disney trip right, it’s going to be everyone.

One last point. I have noticed in peoples trip reports back, the amount of grumpy guests in the theme parks. Fights broke out at one point. I think this could indicate that genie is NOT making any guests happy, newbies or monster lovers. It’s failing at both ends. (Possibly) It will be interesting to see if the general unhappiness of the guests continue to be evident in disser comments on return from the parks, even if they get the IT straightened out.

 

[TommyJK]

Disney was not treating new customers poorly. The new customer is just ignorant or lazy about gaming the system. All of us were once newbs. We survived. We got experienced. Friends gave us tips. We read the blogs. It's really not that complicated to book fast passes. And I see nothing wrong with giving people staying on property a 30 day leg up booking fastpasses. That is a perk for paying inflated prices for Disney's mediocre hotels.

Having a system with a steep learning curve, that required heavy knowledge/experience (and that spawns external cottage industries on how to "game" the system for maximum benefit) creates an immediate barrier to newcomers, on top of the added monetary barrier of being a "60 +10" visitor to get that absolute greatest benefit. Sure, as you say there will be the ones who didn't know how to use it at first and they learned over time how to join the "Friends of the Monster" club, but I'm certain there were many more others who simply said "This sucks, I'm not coming back". Disney has said as much with noting continued and overwhelming guest feedback about lines waits being too long.

Now maybe I should have used a different phrase than saying Disney treated new customers poorly. Perhaps I should have stated it as Disney had a poor system in place that put new customers at an overly imbalanced disadvantage vs. seasoned customers, much moreso than the advantage a seasoned customer would have if there was no FP+ at all. This defucntland video shows in meticulous detail how true this was.

If the FP+ system was so great, and Genie+ as many say is just Disney wanting to monetize line skipping, then they just could have kept FP+ as-is, and just started charging for it. But they didn't. They're trying to re-balance things and have a system that *tries* to level the playing field of line skipping benefit between seasoned vets vs newcomers. Not saying Genie+ will be successful at doing that, but it's at least part of the attempt with Genie+.

Now that all being said, the real problem is not what kind of line-skipping scheme they're using. It's the root issue of the ratio of # of guests to overall # of attractions/attraction capacity. Until that gets better balanced, there will likely not be a "good" line skipping scheme at Disney that greatly helps the majority of guests overall (and not just a small minority). People need to accept that going to Disney means you're going to wait in some long lines. And the days of a sliver of the guests who are vets, watch every Blogger tips and tricks video on how to best game the system, and have the $ to be a "60 +10"er who get less than 30 minute waits for 8+ attractions a day (while 90% of the guests waits are inflated longer so that a sliver of guests can prosper) are over.

 

[Rileygirl]

Having a system with a steep learning curve, that required heavy knowledge/experience (and that spawns external cottage industries on how to "game" the system for maximum benefit) creates an immediate barrier to newcomers, on top of the added monetary barrier of being a "60 +10" visitor to get that absolute greatest benefit. Sure, as you say there will be the ones who didn't know how to use it at first and they learned over time how to join the "Friends of the Monster" club, but I'm certain there were many more others who simply said "This sucks, I'm not coming back". Disney has said as much with noting continued and overwhelming guest feedback about lines waits being too long.

Now maybe I should have used a different phrase than saying Disney treated new customers poorly. Perhaps I should have stated it as Disney had a poor system in place that put new customers at an overly imbalanced disadvantage vs. seasoned customers, much moreso than the advantage a seasoned customer would have if there was no FP+ at all. This defucntland video shows in meticulous detail how true this was.

If the FP+ system was so great, and Genie+ as many say is just Disney wanting to monetize line skipping, then they just could have kept FP+ as-is, and just started charging for it. But they didn't. They're trying to re-balance things and have a system that *tries* to level the playing field of line skipping benefit between seasoned vets vs newcomers. Not saying Genie+ will be successful at doing that, but it's at least part of the attempt with Genie+.

Now that all being said, the real problem is not what kind of line-skipping scheme they're using. It's the root issue of the ratio of # of guests to overall # of attractions/attraction capacity. Until that gets better balanced, there will likely not be a "good" line skipping scheme at Disney that greatly helps the majority of guests overall (and not just a small minority). People need to accept that going to Disney means you're going to wait in some long lines. And the days of a sliver of the guests who are vets, watch every Blogger tips and tricks video on how to best game the system, and have the $ to be a "60 +10"er who get less than 30 minute waits for 8+ attractions a day (while 90% of the guests waits are inflated longer so that a sliver of guests can prosper) are over.

TRUE.

BUT there is a rub. Genie is not the only thing in play here. Under the current ‘ Dicktator’ there are some additional sweeping changes that are going to impact monster lovers.

1.Genie takes away the ability to do more than 5 or 6 good attractions for a vet, and they are going wonder about the value of buying that ticket again.

2.Genie does not help the monster lover ride more attractions, even if you throw money at it, that is going to significantly decrease the pleasure of the monster lover trip.

3.WDW has (apparently?) cut back on custodial services, and dissers are reporting back on dirty parks and dirty bathrooms. This is seriously impacts the magic of being in the park. Monster lovers won’t like this, and newbies may not see as much Magic. It’s just like any other theme park, dirty, frustrating and over crowd

4. WDW has (apparently) cut back on transportation costs, leaving guests frustrated and angry about trying to get around disney, monster lovers are not going to like that, and not newbies either.

5. WDW has gotten rid of Magical Express. This is interesting to me because Disney implemented Magical Express to help keep guests stranded at Wdw, unable to stray to outside theme parks or restaurants. Monster lovers are not going to be happy to pay for extra transportation costs, and those that rent cars might be more inclined to wander off. Same with newbies.

6. The QUALITY of upcoming new attractions under the new Dick. If the Star Wars hotel is any example of the level of imagineering and degree of set design, Disney is in serious trouble.

Monster lovers (who are probably a significantproportion of daily visitors, and not just the weird fan/fanatic) and Newbies alike will not be coming back.


The dick plus the genie is a very bad combination. I am going to call it big dick genie energy, and it’s a black hole kids.
JMHO

 

[TommyJK]

I think I am more in line with grasshopper. Although it’s POSSIBLE that a new guest could come up to speed on the second day, I am going to say that is very unlikely. Certainly cast members won’t be showing new users the tweaks and go around to possibly maximize their experience with Genie , and there will be no time for the guest to educate themselves on the best use while in the theme park.

At the end of the day, they will STILL be outgunned by knowledgeable vets. What is the quality of their experience? That remains to be seen, because perhaps a day with tiki birds, pirates, and buzz will be exciting enough for them to have a great time. Disney, you know, is just magically themed and can be a bit jaw dropping just walking into that park.

While the newbie visitor will still be outgunned by the vet just from a knowledge/experience standpoint, The way the system has been setup now they'll at least be armed with a pistol rather than a stick. Since the vet can only pick one line skip at a time that they started picking that morning (instead of 3 picked at 60 days out), that newbie who just learned the day before about the basics of Genie+ will have a much better chance of say getting a Peter Pan, because the vet picked BTMR first and didn't have Spalsh, Peter Pan, and BTMR all scooped up 60 days ago.

But grasshopper also brings up another thought provoking comment. WDW has been going since 1971, it’s not only DVC that has a huge contingency of monster lovers, but there is also a huge contingency of ap holders that are monster lovers. And also local resident monster lovers. And once every three year monster lovers. Off site penny wise monster lovers. I think the question may be twofold
1. How many monster lovers compared to first time users go to disney on any given day.
2. How the internet with its instantaneous delivery of information can impact even first time goers over the next 5 years.

I'd wager you're heavily over-estimating how many daily guests potentially belong to the "Monster Lover" club.

Now people might say, oh, not sure if the internet will really impact that statistic, but I am going to tell you, five years ago when fast pass plus was going to be installed, the number of people who debated with me on this board arguing that no one would plan their fast passes sixty days out. HA!

But think about this, if 70% of the daily visitor comes to disney prepared to throw fruit at the monster, Disney is just going to end up with a monster the size of a black hole. And I honestly think that with the internet, and the dollar cost of a disney trip, it’s not just fans and fanatics who will be scouring the internet, Tik Tok, utube and the like on how to do a disney trip right, it’s going to be everyone.

Long lines and overcrowding has been a problem at Disney for quite a while. Also the internet with it's vloggers, tip sites, etc have been around for a long time too. The info has been there to scour for a long time. I don't see some new shift happening that will greatly change the number of people who uber research.

One last point. I have noticed in peoples trip reports back, the amount of grumpy guests in the theme parks. Fights broke out at one point. I think this could indicate that genie is NOT making any guests happy, newbies or monster lovers. It’s failing at both ends. (Possibly) It will be interesting to see if the general unhappiness of the guests continue to be evident in disser comments on return from the parks, even if they get the IT straightened out.

This isn't a new thing localized to Disney Parks. People just in general are becoming increasingly more emboldened to be jerks to lash out for their perceived entitlements and cause trouble over it. See airline passengers, unruly grocery shoppers etc.

 

[Rileygirl]

Of course I have no numbers. And what a pleasure to watch this video with some one who had numbers when they designed that simulation. That is fantastic.

But, I am going to say I think both Disney and defunctland are seriously underestimating the number of monster lovers out there. Can I prove it? Nope. But the basic inability of Genie to even being able to provide a modicum of decent options when people are paying for the plus option, and attempting to pay the up charge for the best rides supports the theory that there are a lot of users out there trying to stack the odds in their favour, and it’s overwhelming the system.

As you say, the current number of riddles and attractions do not support genie. I will follow it up by saying, the number of savvy Disney visitors even if it’s their first visit, is exponentially increasing and will continue increase due to ready knowledge on the internet. End result, black hole monster.

 

[TommyJK]

TRUE.

BUT there is a rub. Genie is not the only thing in play here. Under the current ‘ Dicktator’ there are some additional sweeping changes that are going to impact monster lovers.

1.Genie takes away the ability to do more than 5 or 6 good attractions for a vet, and they are going wonder about the value of buying that ticket again.

Not quite. It takes the ability of a vet to do more than 5 or 6 good attractions at a less than 30 minute wait at the expense of a newbie only getting 0-2 rides at a less than 30 minute wait. And instead the idea (not saying that it will work in practice) of Genie+ is the vet could get 2-3 at a less than 30 minute wait, while the newb could also more easily also get 2-3 too. Again not saying Genie+ will succeed in this (see my comments about the bigger problem being # of attractions vs. # of guests) but that's at least the attempt.

2.Genie does not help the monster lover ride more attractions, even if you throw money at it, that is going to significantly decrease the pleasure of the monster lover trip.

Also agree with this. Genie+ is attempting to wrestle some of those away from the Monster Lover and make them available for the newb. The pleasure of the Monster Lover will for sure decrease. But as the video demonstrated, the Monster Lover is small fraction of a day's visitors, and FP+ made it worse for the non-monster lover. But that's the goal, and in order to try and make things better for the majority, they going to have to cut into the benefits and joy of the minority who've disproportionately benefitted.

3.WDW has (apparently?) cut back on custodial services, and dissers are reporting back on dirty parks and dirty bathrooms. This is seriously impacts the magic of being in the park. Monster lovers won’t like this, and newbies may not see as much Magic. It’s just like any other theme park, dirty, frustrating and over crowd

4. WDW has (apparently) cut back on transportation costs, leaving guests frustrated and angry about trying to get around disney, monster lovers are not going to like that, and not newbies either.

5. WDW has gotten rid of Magical Express. This is interesting to me because Disney implemented Magical Express to help keep guests stranded at Wdw, unable to stray to outside theme parks or restaurants. Monster lovers are not going to be happy to pay for extra transportation costs, and those that rent cars might be more inclined to wander off. Same with newbies.

6. The QUALITY of upcoming new attractions under the new Dick. If the Star Wars hotel is any example of the level of imagineering and degree of set design, Disney is in serious trouble.

Fully agree with these statements. But I don't see how that relates to what Genie+ is trying to do for guest satisfaction. Disney definitely needs to address these failing as it impacts everyone (but has nothing to do with satisfaction as it relates to line waits)

Monster lovers (who are probably a significantproportion of daily visitors, and not just the weird fan/fanatic) and Newbies alike will not be coming back.

The video goes into great detail showing that the monster lover being a small minority of the overall guests, so I don't agree with your statement saying they are a significant portion of daily visitors. Just like I don't consider this board to be a representation of significant portion of the average daily guests.

The dick plus the genie is a very bad combination. I am going to call it big dick genie energy, and it’s a black hole kids.
JMHO

I agree in that all of the various cost cutting is going to do the real damage to overall guest satisfaction. I also agree that Genie+ is going to sour the experience for the past Monster Lover, but Genie+ by design was bound to do that for the Monster Lover. The question remains to be seen if Genie+ will boost the feedback when it comes to new guest satisfaction as it relates to waiting in line.

 

[Grasshopper2016]

Now that all being said, the real problem is not what kind of line-skipping scheme they're using. It's the root issue of the ratio of # of guests to overall # of attractions/attraction capacity. Until that gets better balanced, there will likely not be a "good" line skipping scheme at Disney that greatly helps the majority of guests overall (and not just a small minority). People need to accept that going to Disney means you're going to wait in some long lines. And the days of a sliver of the guests who are vets, watch every Blogger tips and tricks video on how to best game the system, and have the $ to be a "60 +10"er who get less than 30 minute waits for 8+ attractions a day (while 90% of the guests waits are inflated longer so that a sliver of guests can prosper) are over.

You're absolutely right about the heart of the problem. The ratio of guests to attraction capacity is simply too great for a majority of people to get to ride most rides without waiting in long lines.
As I posted in another thread:

I think the solution is to cap capacity at a reasonable level that ensures that everyone in the parks is able to have a good time and ride all of the major rides. If Disney was in charge of the Super Bowl, they would probably sell a million tickets and then charge extra for the right to sit in a seat (shared with someone else, and only for one quarter, not of your choosing). And you would have to log in at 7:00 a.m. on Super Bowl Sunday to fight for the opportunity to purchase seat access.

I do wonder, though, whether leveling the playing field is going to operate to Disney's advantage as much as they seem to think it will.

First, Genie+ seems to level down, not up. Now everyone has a poor experience! Again, you're right that some of this is just capacity. You can't make everyone have a great time; there aren't enough rides for that. But some things about Genie+ are simply not functioning well. I doubt the designers anticipated how quickly the good rides would sell out for the day, and how few good rides you would be able to get with it.

Second, having a few insider tricks that only the monster lovers know about is a good way to ensure that your most loyal fans will still have a good enough experience to justify continuing to come back again and again. Obviously, Disney has decided that they would rather fill the parks with once-in-a-lifetime guests who will spend more per person than with regulars. But that strikes me as short-sighted (as is much of what the company is doing these days with regard to the parks). It is rarely a recipe for success in the business world to alienate your regular customers and discourage them from coming back. The supply of cash-happy first-timers is not infinite, especially when the economy sours. Plus, the various cutbacks that Rileygirl lists, and others that posters have been lamenting since long before the pandemic even began, have made the experience less "magical" for everyone. As have the operational flaws of Genie+. If the first-timer finds that Genie+ isn't what it's cracked up to be, and that the whole Disney World experience is wildly overpriced and underwhelming, not only won't they come back (again, Disney doesn't seem to care much about that), but they will tell their friends, family, and co-workers not to bother going. The more that happens, the faster the supply of future fleeceable first-timers dries up--especially when the post(ish)-pandemic revenge travel boom comes to an end. At that point, Disney might regret having driven off their long-time reliable guests. Better to have the regulars come back and spend a little less per capita than to have no one come at all. And Disney might regret failing to do more to instill the sense of magic in the first-time visitors that turned us into regulars in the first place. Throw the monster lovers a bone or two!

 

[Prince John Robin Hood]

I didn't realize how much attendance has increased over time. Now I understand why people say that WDW needs a 5th gate.

 

[Rileygirl]

Interesting debate and points. I did wander off topic a bit.

Perhaps I will revise and frame my best point.

Disney is attempting to tame the monster and level the playing field with Genie. I believe this is impossible task because of two things.
1. Can’t prove it, but I believe the monster lovers are a higher percentage than considered by Disney or defunctland. The number of DVC member will make up a per cent age of that number, which has increased over the last ten years. That has to be a fact. Even if only 50% of DVC rooms are being let to dvcers, that has got to make a significant number of monster lovers. How many DVC rooms are there on site?
2. The internet will create monsters who rarely or never have set foot into Disney. The free education and tricks and tips offered by EVERY MEDIUM will ripple effect. It may be the kids watching tik tok will be educating the parents how to jump start genie. The Star Wars fan wanting to see rise of the resistance will be following blogs how to do that. The mom wanting to save money will be watching u tube videos.

The big question is, how many monsters does it take to render Genie plus useless to almost everybody? 30%, 40% or 50%? I don’t know, but it appears, right now, that is the case in the parks. Genie is useless, Genie plus is even worse, and the parks feel extremely crowded, according to reports. And I don’t think this is peak Christmas crowds yet. I think this is already in play.
But what do I know? No facts. Just having some fun. Enjoyed the discussion!

 

[Jrb1979]

I didn't realize how much attendance has increased over time. Now I understand why people say that WDW needs a 5th gate.

They need more attractions in the parks they do have first.

 

[TommyJK]

You're absolutely right about the heart of the problem. The ratio of guests to attraction capacity is simply too great for a majority of people to get to ride most rides without waiting in long lines.
As I posted in another thread:

I do wonder, though, whether leveling the playing field is going to operate to Disney's advantage as much as they seem to think it will.

First, Genie+ seems to level down, not up. Now everyone has a poor experience! Again, you're right that some of this is just capacity. You can't make everyone have a great time; there aren't enough rides for that. But some things about Genie+ are simply not functioning well. I doubt the designers anticipated how quickly the good rides would sell out for the day, and how few good rides you would be able to get with it.

Second, having a few insider tricks that only the monster lovers know about is a good way to ensure that your most loyal fans will still have a good enough experience to justify continuing to come back again and again. Obviously, Disney has decided that they would rather fill the parks with once-in-a-lifetime guests who will spend more per person than with regulars. But that strikes me as short-sighted (as is much of what the company is doing these days with regard to the parks). It is rarely a recipe for success in the business world to alienate your regular customers and discourage them from coming back. The supply of cash-happy first-timers is not infinite, especially when the economy sours. Plus, the various cutbacks that Rileygirl lists, and others that posters have been lamenting since long before the pandemic even began, have made the experience less "magical" for everyone. As have the operational flaws of Genie+. If the first-timer finds that Genie+ isn't what it's cracked up to be, and that the whole Disney World experience is wildly overpriced and underwhelming, not only won't they come back (again, Disney doesn't seem to care much about that), but they will tell their friends, family, and co-workers not to bother going. The more that happens, the faster the supply of future fleeceable first-timers dries up--especially when the post(ish)-pandemic revenge travel boom comes to an end. At that point, Disney might regret having driven off their long-time reliable guests. Better to have the regulars come back and spend a little less per capita than to have no one come at all. And Disney might regret failing to do more to instill the sense of magic in the first-time visitors that turned us into regulars in the first place. Throw the monster lovers a bone or two!

I think Genie definitely levels some people up, simply by a) only allowing people to take one at a time and b) only able to make selections day-of. Here is a heat map Touring Plans put together of what selection availablity looks like on a medium crowd day at MK.



There are several attractions above that would be gone on FP+ before the day even started after it had gone through the 60 and 30 day well versed planners, leaving the newbies unfamiliar with FP+ with few to no choices of the top attractions. In the above heat map, even just using the simple 2 hour rule to get a subsequent LL, an off-site guest could get on day-of a LL for Peter Pans Flight (get this at 8:00 am at park open), BTMR (get this at 10:00am), Spalsh Mountain (Get this at noon), and Haunted Mansion (get this at 2:00pm). An inexperienced FP+ offsite visitor would likely never be able to score all of that if they just showed up at the park and tried to get all of those day-of. That's a massive level up for newbies and/or people who don't want to meticulously plan out their day a month+ in advance.

Now I recognize that on busy days, it's been a sh*t-show with LLs selling out much earlier (again, a lot of that is due to # of visitors vs. # of attractions/attraction capacity which is a different issue to address), but some of this can be growing pains of a new system and Disney seems to be acknowleding that by tweaking things to spread out LL availablity throughout the day. As TP has documented in a recent article what they've been seeing, noting with how Disney is trying to spread availability out, there were good headliner availalbity much later into the day with random drops of added LLs for headliners.

https://www.disneytouristblog.com/lightning-lane-genie-holiday-availability/

 

[jimmymc]

I think I am more in line with grasshopper. Although it’s POSSIBLE that a new guest could come up to speed on the second day, I am going to say that is very unlikely. Certainly cast members won’t be showing new users the tweaks and go around to possibly maximize their experience with Genie , and there will be no time for the guest to educate themselves on the best use while in the theme park.

At the end of the day, they will STILL be outgunned by knowledgeable vets. What is the quality of their experience? That remains to be seen, because perhaps a day with tiki birds, pirates, and buzz will be exciting enough for them to have a great time. Disney, you know, is just magically themed and can be a bit jaw dropping just walking into that park.

But grasshopper also brings up another thought provoking comment. WDW has been going since 1971, it’s not only DVC that has a huge contingency of monster lovers, but there is also a huge contingency of ap holders that are monster lovers. And also local resident monster lovers. And once every three year monster lovers. Off site penny wise monster lovers. I think the question may be twofold
1. How many monster lovers compared to first time users go to disney on any given day.
2. How the internet with its instantaneous delivery of information can impact even first time goers over the next 5 years.

Now people might say, oh, not sure if the internet will really impact that statistic, but I am going to tell you, five years ago when fast pass plus was going to be installed, the number of people who debated with me on this board arguing that no one would plan their fast passes sixty days out. HA!

But think about this, if 70% of the daily visitor comes to disney prepared to throw fruit at the monster, Disney is just going to end up with a monster the size of a black hole. And I honestly think that with the internet, and the dollar cost of a disney trip, it’s not just fans and fanatics who will be scouring the internet, Tik Tok, utube and the like on how to do a disney trip right, it’s going to be everyone.

One last point. I have noticed in peoples trip reports back, the amount of grumpy guests in the theme parks. Fights broke out at one point. I think this could indicate that genie is NOT making any guests happy, newbies or monster lovers. It’s failing at both ends. (Possibly) It will be interesting to see if the general unhappiness of the guests continue to be evident in disser comments on return from the parks, even if they get the IT straightened out.

I definitely agree that Genie+ is a much steeper learning curve than paper Fastpasses. While new guests could learn it in a day, what's more likely to happen is they buy it for the second day and don't use it well, only getting on 2 or 3 rides all day, and feeling ripped off.

My thoughts on Genie+ are that it is the worst of both world. You still have a separate queue which slows down the standby line, but it's cheap enough that a large portion of guests buy in. As a result, Genie+ users are only getting a few passes after paying extra.

As bad as Genie+'s rollout has looked on the boards, this is nothing compared to the frustration when Fastpass+ first launched. Hour long waits to use the kiosks, app crashes, guests only being able to book small rides as Fastpasses.

And as far as the fights go, those have been going on since before the original Fastpass. It's been worse recently because the parks are insanely crowded this holiday season, much more than in previous years. I don't think it would be any different with any other system.

 

[Orsino]

I didn't realize how much attendance has increased over time. Now I understand why people say that WDW needs a 5th gate.

All Disney needs to do is have longer park hours. The recent hours are significantly less than they have been in the past. I think even before the shutdown, hours had been reduced a little bit.