DVC Club Level and Home Resort Survey

I sincerely believe that the cabins are being sold through a trust because they are manufactured park models, which meet recreational standards and follow the ANSI A119.5 regulations. Because they are not mobile homes, which are built to comply with HUD standards for manufactured housing, DVC cannot sell a 50-year ownership interest in a structure with a lifespan of 30 years or less. The ground can be leased, upon which a park model is offered. All of the cabins, being park models, will need to be replaced at least once during the period of ownership.
I'm coming around to this school of thought.

To directionally support/add onto this theory, "Palmetto" has been used in the URL/filenames of media related to CFW. This type of usage is consistent with the term being a codename or synonymous term for CFW.

Sizzle reel: https://cdn1.parksmedia.wdprapps.di...zle-without-Cabins_DOM-DVCMEM_NOOFF_EN_15.mp4
Hi-res artist rendering: https://cdn1.parksmedia.wdprapps.disney.com/vision-dam/digital/parks-platform/parks-global-assets/disney-vacation-club/campaign/palmetto/Palmetto_Exterior_Angular_Global-Nav.jpg

If you look at the URLs, there's a whole folder named "palmetto" and so far everything that's been exposed from it is the Cabins. And where it's showing up is indicative of a synonymous term usage--it's the media that shows up on the CFW marketing page (https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/dvc-cabins-at-fort-wilderness), so it's not just tucked away for future use when they try to sell the Trust as a Trust product.

The 2nd URL is especially telling, in my opinion, as it uses "Palmetto" in the JPG name in place of something like "Cabin" or "Cabins_at_Fort_Wilderness". There's no indication that "Palmetto" is a term in addition to or a superset of "Cabins" or anything like that.

And while they appear to have set themselves up in the legal position to continue to use the Palmetto Trust as a timeshare Trust product where they can add future resorts, the simpler explanation is that they must do it to sell CFW's cabins.
 
If it were indeed a separate association, Poly2 might even have resale restrictions, so every Poly1 resale owner would not even be able to book it at 7 months.

You think Yvonne Chang wouldn’t take heat for that? No DVC exec would have even brought up the issue if this was a real possibility.
Also, I keep going back to one question. Sure, the statement at the meeting did leave some wiggle room. But why say anything at all that basically implies the same association if they’re going to introduce an entirely new system that would not make it possible for Poly1 owners to book the tower? That would be a monumental miscalculation that would just anger a ton of DVC owners, and make them appear more than a little deceitful.

Or, do you think the trust and the Poly1 association can coexist together in one combined entity? Seems unlikely to me.

Maybe there is another spin that we are not aware of which makes Poly2 or parts of it accessible to Poly1 owners that we don't know about and DVD doesn't want to explain at this point. Could explain the communication silence.

Ok, so if Poly2 does not wind up in the association and winds up being sold as some sort of a trust, and DVC owners are confused because they believe they were told otherwise, I guess you’re saying that Yvonne might be able to cheerfully respond by saying something like “Oh, I’m sorry you jumped to the wrong conclusion, but if you parse my exact phraseology, and take a closer look at every single word I said through the exact letter of Florida State Law, you’ll realize that I basically guaranteed you nothing by hinting at an answer you wanted to hear…because, uh, it wouldn‘t have been good form to handle the situation any other way, like, perhaps, just refraining to answer the question at all.”
Agree with these comments.

I'm wondering though (if they go the trust route with poly2) if there could be an option for poly1 members to convert their points into the trust (this would require paying large amounts of money to Disney obviously, lol) and have access to the tower? That would solve a lot of these issues listed although people would still be unhappy based on her statement and how it sounded.

I'm also not well versed in the legal implications so not sure if this would be a possibility.
 
Agree with these comments.

I'm wondering though (if they go the trust route with poly2) if there could be an option for poly1 members to convert their points into the trust (this would require paying large amounts of money to Disney obviously, lol) and have access to the tower? That would solve a lot of these issues listed although people would still be unhappy based on her statement and how it sounded.

I'm also not well versed in the legal implications so not sure if this would be a possibility.
If Poly2 becomes a separate association there will be no legal implications IMO.
 
Agree with these comments.

I'm wondering though (if they go the trust route with poly2) if there could be an option for poly1 members to convert their points into the trust (this would require paying large amounts of money to Disney obviously, lol) and have access to the tower? That would solve a lot of these issues listed although people would still be unhappy based on her statement and how it sounded.

I'm also not well versed in the legal implications so not sure if this would be a possibility.

There is no way to convert your points as they are deeded to PVB.

However, DVD could offer a program, assuming they want more PVB points to allow you to sell them your deed in exchange for purchasing a new one within the trust.
 


There is no way to convert your points as they are deeded to PVB.

However, DVD could offer a program, assuming they want more PVB points to allow you to sell them your deed in exchange for purchasing a new one within the trust.
Which would be a major change to how DVD operates, wouldn't it?

They could have offered this with the existing system as well: if someone is interested in a different resort than they own, buy back the old contract and sell a new one (different resort, different use year). But they are not yet doing this (at least not on a regular basis). Apparently the difference between the buy-back price and the new direct sales price does not make this interesting enough for DVD.

So I guess they won't be offering something like even with the trust unless they have a new way to use the points they buy back. If they could add these points from sold-out resorts to the trust (thus extending the trust to sold-out properties), this would make this a money-printing machine but the consensus here seems to be that this isn't possible and I certainly hope this is correct.
 
Which would be a major change to how DVD operates, wouldn't it?

They could have offered this with the existing system as well: if someone is interested in a different resort than they own, buy back the old contract and sell a new one (different resort, different use year). But they are not yet doing this (at least not on a regular basis). Apparently the difference between the buy-back price and the new direct sales price does not make this interesting enough for DVD.

So I guess they won't be offering something like even with the trust unless they have a new way to use the points they buy back. If they could add these points from sold-out resorts to the trust (thus extending the trust to sold-out properties), this would make this a money-printing machine but the consensus here seems to be that this isn't possible and I certainly hope this is correct.
Some other timeshare systems offer equity trade in options when buying something else. Vistana for example will take back your old week and give you what you originally paid for it (or what the original buyer paid for it) and put that toward your new purchase as a credit. The problem is it often requires a minimum amount of "new money". Usually $10,000. So you often have to be buying something "better". These are used to incentivize the buyer to buy something more. I suspect DVC has never seen the need to do this with their program and in some cases the original purchase price may be less than one could sell it for on the resale market.
 
Which would be a major change to how DVD operates, wouldn't it?

They could have offered this with the existing system as well: if someone is interested in a different resort than they own, buy back the old contract and sell a new one (different resort, different use year). But they are not yet doing this (at least not on a regular basis). Apparently the difference between the buy-back price and the new direct sales price does not make this interesting enough for DVD.

So I guess they won't be offering something like even with the trust unless they have a new way to use the points they buy back. If they could add these points from sold-out resorts to the trust (thus extending the trust to sold-out properties), this would make this a money-printing machine but the consensus here seems to be that this isn't possible and I certainly hope this is correct.

Yes..they dont typically do it and the few times that they have offered someone to buy back their contract, it was well below resale market and they fully acknowledged that.

So, I don’t see it because all it does would be to give them more points at sold out resorts
 


I'm coming around to this school of thought.

To directionally support/add onto this theory, "Palmetto" has been used in the URL/filenames of media related to CFW. This type of usage is consistent with the term being a codename or synonymous term for CFW.

Sizzle reel: https://cdn1.parksmedia.wdprapps.di...zle-without-Cabins_DOM-DVCMEM_NOOFF_EN_15.mp4
Hi-res artist rendering: https://cdn1.parksmedia.wdprapps.di...etto/Palmetto_Exterior_Angular_Global-Nav.jpg

If you look at the URLs, there's a whole folder named "palmetto" and so far everything that's been exposed from it is the Cabins. And where it's showing up is indicative of a synonymous term usage--it's the media that shows up on the CFW marketing page (https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/dvc-cabins-at-fort-wilderness), so it's not just tucked away for future use when they try to sell the Trust as a Trust product.

The 2nd URL is especially telling, in my opinion, as it uses "Palmetto" in the JPG name in place of something like "Cabin" or "Cabins_at_Fort_Wilderness". There's no indication that "Palmetto" is a term in addition to or a superset of "Cabins" or anything like that.

And while they appear to have set themselves up in the legal position to continue to use the Palmetto Trust as a timeshare Trust product where they can add future resorts, the simpler explanation is that they must do it to sell CFW's cabins.
I agree. This explanation checks all of the boxes as far as the current evidence, except one: the original questionnaire that started this thread.

But for all we know, the questionnaire and the Palmetto documentation could have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
 
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I agree. This explanation checks all of the boxes as far as the current evidence, except one: the original questionnaire that started this thread.

But for all we know, the questionnaire and the Palmetto documentation could have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
I don't think that the timeline really checks out for the questionnaire to be relevant to the Palmetto trust specifically. By the time the questionnaire came out they were already way too far down the road of creating the Palmetto trust for the results of the questionnaire to meaningfully affect their decision-making. At best it could impact how they market or influence their talking points.

Having said that, I think it is entirely possible even if the Palmetto trust doesn't become the multi-site trust plan that we have been discussing here, such a plan is still a distinct possibility down the road. The legal framework for the Palmetto trust was definitely set up so they can reuse a lot of the documents (or at least clauses) for a future true multi-site plan.
 
I don't think that the timeline really checks out for the questionnaire to be relevant to the Palmetto trust specifically. By the time the questionnaire came out they were already way too far down the road of creating the Palmetto trust for the results of the questionnaire to meaningfully affect their decision-making. At best it could impact how they market or influence their talking points.

Having said that, I think it is entirely possible even if the Palmetto trust doesn't become the multi-site trust plan that we have been discussing here, such a plan is still a distinct possibility down the road. The legal framework for the Palmetto trust was definitely set up so they can reuse a lot of the documents (or at least clauses) for a future true multi-site plan.
Oh, I completely agree. The timeline was way too short. But it did seem to be the thing that set-off the entire trust rumor-mill. And then a bunch of people assumed that DVD was implementing something that other timeshare companies have done in converting into a trust association. But those multi-use trust musings are (for the time being) looking less and less likely, IMO.
 
I don't think that the timeline really checks out for the questionnaire to be relevant to the Palmetto trust specifically. By the time the questionnaire came out they were already way too far down the road of creating the Palmetto trust for the results of the questionnaire to meaningfully affect their decision-making. At best it could impact how they market or influence their talking points.

Having said that, I think it is entirely possible even if the Palmetto trust doesn't become the multi-site trust plan that we have been discussing here, such a plan is still a distinct possibility down the road. The legal framework for the Palmetto trust was definitely set up so they can reuse a lot of the documents (or at least clauses) for a future true multi-site plan.
I think initial internal discussions of the trust probably led to the survey question. As they were trying to determine how they would structure CFW, someone said "hey we could use this same kind of thing to sell access to multiple resorts at 11 months". Thus the survey question. I suspect if they move forward with a multisite trust model, it will probably be a separate trust from Palmetto.
 
What is “clear” from all of the above posts is none of us is certain about what is actually going to happen with Poly 2. It may become part of Poly 1, in the same way as VGF 2 became part of VGF 1 – mainly by just adding units from the new VGF to the VGF 1 POS and creating new point charts -- and it is possible that the cabin trust concept is something that will apply only to the cabins and not to any other future resorts. It is also possible that Poly will be the second resort with a trust plan, and CFW cabins not included in the first trust plan may be added to that trust plan, and potentially even undeclared units in resorts like Riviera and VDH that still have undeclared units. The part of the CFW trust plan that leads to much of the speculation is that DVD has retained the right to create future trust plans that can include CFW cabins, units from other resorts, or entire other resorts, and thus have trust plans that allow beneficiary purchasers to reserve multiple resorts at 11-months out. It was not required to include such terms in the CFW POS documents if its intent was to limit the trust plan type of timeshare ownership to CFW. But even that fact can be viewed two ways – it intends to add more resorts to the trust plan or DVD does not intend to do that now but just added the terms on the assumption that maybe later it may change its mind.

What I cover here are some other issues that may be of concern. I previously mentioned the changes DVD made to CFW DVC Membership Agreement that allows it to do point reallocations among room categories, e.g., lowering nightly points needed for 2BRs while raising them year round for studios, while under prior documents it was limited to reallocating among the same-sized rooms among seasons, i.e., DVCM could now lower studios in one season while raising studios in another season. I also mentioned the new rental rules created which give DVCM the exclusive right to make a final determination that any number of repeated reservations for non-family, use of rental agencies, advertising for rentals, or offers to rent already confirmed reservations, are a violation of the commercial purpose exception to members’ right to rent.

Another document with significant changes is the DVC Resort Agreement. That is the document that recognizes a new “DVC Resort,” meaning a resort at which members can reserve rooms through the DVC Reservation Component, which is the reservation system controlled by BVTC, and through which members can reserve at 7-months out at DVC Resorts they do not own. BVTC is deemed a fiduciary of the members and thus must act in their best interests, regardless of whether DVD wants it to do otherwise.

One key term that exists in all DVC Resort Agreements applicable to DVC Resorts created before Riviera is the following: “If BVTC associates one or more additional resorts as DVC Resorts, the DVC Resort Agreement executed to effect such association shall be substantially similar to this Agreement in all material respects under the circumstances pertaining to each such additional DVC Resort.”

That clause became a major issue of concern when DVD created Riviera. The pre-Riviera DVC Resort Agreements applied to all Club Members, both purchasers from DVD and resale purchasers, thus allowing all resale purchasers to use the DVC Reservation Component and reserve non-owned resorts at 7-months out. The Riviera DVC Resort Agreement does not have the above clause and adds the resale purchaser restrictions, prohibiting any resale purchaser of Riviera, and any other DVC resort resale purchasers as to resales done on or after January 19, 2019, when Riviera officially became a DVC Resort, to reserve Riviera. Those resale provisions should have prevented BVTC from even making Riviera a DVC Resort, i.e., BVTC should, as a fiduciary of the members, under the terms of the prior DVC Resort Agreements, have refused to make Riviera a DVC Resort, leaving it unassociated with any prior resorts, unless Riviera did not have those resale restrictions.

But DVD cleverly avoided any lawsuit by declaring that every DVC resale owner that existed before Jan 19, 2019, was unaffected by the new rule, and then DVD could claim, if challenged later, that every member who purchased a resale contract after January 2019 could not claim injury because they knew, before purchasing, of the resale restrictions, and purchased anyway, thus potentially waiving any claim that the restriction was improperly added.

The CFW DVC Resort Agreement has the same resale restrictions as Riviera, which could possibly lead to a challenge. Moreover, there are other key changes in the CFW Resort Agreement that could be the basis of asserting the CFW Agreement is not the same in all material respects as any pre-Riviera Resort Agreement:

Commercial Purpose. The CFW Resort Agreement adopts the same new rental restrictions that appear in the Membership Agreement, as applicable to members reserving through BVTC, with the only real difference being that the party making the decision that the commercial purpose clause has been violated is BVTC. Not only is that clause absent from any previous DVC Resort Agreements, but the declarations for the prior resorts grant the power to determine whether the commercial purpose clause has been violated to the resort's Association, see e.g., BWV Declarations §12.1, not BVTC, and nowhere in the prior POS's is there a clause under which the Association transfers its power to make such a determination to BVTC, i.e., BVTC has always lacked any power to determine that the commercial purpose clause has been violated.

Definition of Club Member. Under DVC Resort Agreements, it is the “Club Member” who has the right to do anything under the agreement, such as make reservations at non-owned resorts. A Club Member is defined under CFW and prior Resorts Agreements as "the owner of record of an Ownership interest." However, the pre-CFW agreements define Ownership Interest as “a property interest in unit in a DVC Resort.” CFW trust owners will have only in interest in the trust and it is the trust that will own the units (the cabins). The CFW agreement defines Ownership Interest to mean “a timeshare estate in a DVC Resort, which is a real property interest pursuant to Section 721.05(34), Florida Statutes.” §1.20. As I have noted before, Florida recognizes a trust interest to be a real property interest that can be transferred via deed, but is not a “property interest in a unit of a DVC Resort,” which is what current DVC owners have, an actual legal interest in a unit at a DVC Resort.

Point Reallocations. BVTC has always retained the power to create point charts applicable to DVC Resorts at 7-months out and has always just followed the point charts that apply to home resort reservations. Unlike previous Resort Agreements, the CFW Agreement creates a new right by declaring that BVTC can adopt new point charts applicable to DVC Resorts at 7-months out and annually reallocate points and such “reallocation may be made across all or any Vacation Home types.” §5.2. In essence, it claims the same new reallocation power that DVCM claims in the Membership Agreement.

New Reservation Charge. In the past, members have contributed to the costs of the reservation programs including the Disney Reservation Component via annual dues, and that will also be the case for CFW. However, the CFW DVC Resort Agreement adopts something that never existed before. BVTC has been given the right to charge a separate fee for members from other resorts attempting to reserve CFW or “certain” other DVC Resorts, that go unnamed. §5.2. As to charging fees for making such reservations, the legal rule is that such charges cannot be made unless the right to do so is reserved in the applicable POS. Not only does BVTC not reserve the right to charge fees for doing reservations in the previous DVC Resort Agreements, but it expressly declares in those Agreements that it will not charge any individual transaction fees to Club Members. See, e.g., BWV DVC Resort Agreement, §7.1. Thus, that new term directly contradicts the terms of the prior DVC Resort Agreements.

New Greater than 11-month Reservation Period. Like other DVC Resort Agreements, the CFW agreement recognizes the possibility that different Home Resort Priority Periods can exist at different resorts. That has never previously happened as the home resort priority period has always been 11-months for all DVC Resorts. What is peculiar is what is now added to that clause, §5.3. BVTC now reserves the right to associate with any new DVC Resort that adopts a longer home resort priority period than any other resorts during the first year of opening, called the “Opening Priority Period,” and that DVCM has the power to determine the length of that opening priority period. DVCM could possibly grant purchasers of a new resort the right to book their home resort at 12-months out for at least the first year the resort is open. What this indicates is that DVD is likely considering doing something like that with new resorts, possibly with Poly. Such a provision does not exist in the pre-Riviera Resort Agreements. It could also possibly lead to the worst case scenario: DVD could adopt a trust plan that includes units that have not yet been declared into an existing resort, such as Riviera and VDH, declare it, like it has done with the CFW plan, to be its own DVC Resort, and grant purchasers the right to reserve at those resorts at 12-months out for a year, while all already existing owners of those resorts can reserve only at 11-months out.
 
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Proposed accommodations for The Cabins at Disney’s Fort Wilderness Resort – a new Disney Vacation Club Resort are proposed and projected to open Summer 2024. Model room depicted in images shown. Fixtures and furnishings are subject to change. Membership requires purchasing a deeded ownership interest at The Cabins at Disney’s Fort Wilderness Resort that will expire on January 31, 2075, and that typically ranges in price from $22,700 to $60,100 (subject to change). All accommodations are subject to availability. Images may show accommodations, amenities, or activities that are not part of the ownership interest and may require an additional cost. Not an offer where registration or other legal requirements for timeshare solicitation have not been met. For additional information, please visit the General Product, State, & Country Disclosures.

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Email from this morning. Doesn't this negate pretty much everything we've discussed since they specifically mention a "deeded ownership"?
 


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Proposed accommodations for The Cabins at Disney’s Fort Wilderness Resort – a new Disney Vacation Club Resort are proposed and projected to open Summer 2024. Model room depicted in images shown. Fixtures and furnishings are subject to change. Membership requires purchasing a deeded ownership interest at The Cabins at Disney’s Fort Wilderness Resort that will expire on January 31, 2075, and that typically ranges in price from $22,700 to $60,100 (subject to change). All accommodations are subject to availability. Images may show accommodations, amenities, or activities that are not part of the ownership interest and may require an additional cost. Not an offer where registration or other legal requirements for timeshare solicitation have not been met. For additional information, please visit the General Product, State, & Country Disclosures.

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Email from this morning. Doesn't this negate pretty much everything we've discussed since they specifically mention a "deeded ownership"?
It might, but people are given a deeded interest into the trust and part of the Cabin Resort Use plan. So, maybe the term "deeded ownership interest" can be used in general terms.

We all currently own a deeded ownership interst in a leashold condominium, and these will be deeded as well, just differently?

It will be interesting to see how this is marketed by guides...especially if people are asking about RIV, VDH or AUL at the same time?
 
It will be interesting to see how this is marketed by guides...especially if people are asking about RIV, VDH or AUL at the same time?

But I guess it is becoming less and less likely that Disney will announce a big change (like a multi-site trust) at this time (in connection with CFW). They seem to use the trust here to get as close as possible to the established DVC model.

Next stop of this train: when they give us more details on the Poly tower.
 
But I guess it is becoming less and less likely that Disney will announce a big change (like a multi-site trust) at this time (in connection with CFW). They seem to use the trust here to get as close as possible to the established DVC model.

Next stop of this train: when they give us more details on the Poly tower.

I dont expect DVD to really do any big announcement with it. Until there is a second property, this just functions virtually the same.

I do believe that the Poly tower documents will either confirm this may be a new way forward...if they do something with that in conjunction with it...or, its not as ready to go for future projects if they sell Poly tower as is...and maybe this is being set up for future projects beyond that.

It is hard to believe that they did the survery like they did if this was a cabin only product. I still think its going to come into play down the road....
 
It might, but people are given a deeded interest into the trust and part of the Cabin Resort Use plan. So, maybe the term "deeded ownership interest" can be used in general terms.

We all currently own a deeded ownership interst in a leashold condominium, and these will be deeded as well, just differently?

It will be interesting to see how this is marketed by guides...especially if people are asking about RIV, VDH or AUL at the same time?
But that seems very misleading, if they market this exactly the same as previous/legacy DVC, then have some different language that potentially leads to different owner rights - as fine print in the contract.

That would be almost like a bait-and-switch.

I don't see DVD getting that sleazy. At least not yet.

EDIT: Unless this trust is only for their own use, as has been previously proposed because the cabins might not last 50 years. That type of trust would essentially not affected owners in any way. That's the only way I can see this happening now with the wording of this email.
 
It is hard to believe that they did the survery like they did if this was a cabin only product. I still think its going to come into play down the road....
Down the road can either mean in 3 months with Poly 2 or in 15 years when we are closer to 2042 (or anything in between).

It'd surprise me if the CFW contracts will provide owners with 'secret' rights (being able to book more than one resort at 11 months) that do not get a bigger announcement. At this point it might just be a trust contract (because of the building type) that has a few more provisions for future changes than we are used to see. If I interpret the trust rules correctly, a multi-site option might follow later with a new use plan and a big announcement for new buyers after the announcement, but without giving people who buy CFW now any special advantages.
 
But that seems very misleading, if they market this exactly the same as previous/legacy DVC, then have some different language that potentially leads to different owner rights - as fine print in the contract.

That would be almost like a bait-and-switch.

I don't see DVD getting that sleazy. At least not yet.
I agree with this. Even if there are some rights reserved in the ownership docs, I'd be shocked if they implement a multi-site trust at a later date that involves already-sold CFW points or inventory unless they are discussing that front-and-center when it initially goes on sale Feb. 1. They could, of course, do it with units that they declare later and keep separate from the offering that is going on sale now, but I doubt they'll do it.
 
I agree with this. Even if there are some rights reserved in the ownership docs, I'd be shocked if they implement a multi-site trust at a later date that involves already-sold CFW points or inventory unless they are discussing that front-and-center when it initially goes on sale Feb. 1. But they could, of course, do it with units that they declare later.
Yes. I agree.

Except if they add trust points to CFW later, doesn't that contradict previous posters' comments about the documentation referring to CFW being a trust-only product? I'm thinking that the permitting documentation required for construction and/or timeshare approval required different wording because the cabins are such a different product compared to other DVC resorts, and it meant nothing more than that.

I might be wrong, but IMO the multi-use and/or moderate-resort/less-desirable-use product trust as this thread had brainstormed for almost 1000 posts, was never DVD's plan.
 

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