Epcot Closings!

[Bstanley]

Speaking as someone who has chosen to visit only during off-peak periods and who accepted fewer parades, fireworks displays, shorter hours, etc. as the result of that choice - I find the very concept of Epcot not being open 365 days a year an abomination and a blight on the Land o' Disney.

If the cost-cutting fanatics of Team Disney felt it necessary to shut down their second most popular venue simply to raise their NET profit level I would be forced to round-up a bulk emailer and explain my position to them.

Fanaticism consists of redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim.

George Santayana

 

[Disney Adventurer]

I wan't going to comment but as many have already done I'll throw in my 2 cents. There is much more to look at then just the savings generated by closing Epcot on certain days. What would this do to resort bookings at the Epcot Resorts? I'm sure you would see a dramatic decrease, after all one of the big calling cards for those resorts is the walk to Epcot. And then I'll give you one word "IMAGE". As many have already said, if Universal etc. stay open this will be a marketing boom for them. Hey look at us, all our parks are open every day, come stay at our hotels! It is a known fact that it costs 10x more to get back a lost cutomer than to keep them in the first place. Disney would be foolish to loose cusomers in times when competition for the vacation dollar is high. Some times you have to look at the long term picture (2-5 years) not just what the bottom dollar looks like today. As a manager I am faced with such decisions every day, and there are those who feel you need to make a profit today even if it costs you your profit in the future. This thought process is nothing but a downward spiral. I hope Disney doesn't think this way, it will change the way I vacation, and I'm a DVC owner.

 

[raidermatt]

And I can see (mainly from your post) all the reasons they should do it, but am afraid they won’t!! With the caveat that more traditional hours for the other venues accompany the closings!

You know, I was going to ask this as a hypothetical question, but thought the answer would be a resounding NO. Honestly, Lord Baron, I'm surprised by your stance. I would expect your answer to be something like "NO, why should we have to choose? Why either/or?".

Beyond that, my fear would be that even if hours at the other parks were extended, it would be a temporary move to mitigate the backlash. Especially given the reports of no increase in crowds at MGM or MK that night. I can see mgmt actually regretting the later closings and extra shows now...

However, I suppose if the later hours at other parks stuck, it would be ok for us since our trips our longer and we could schedule around a closed day or two. But it could make things more difficult for those on shorter trips.

Oh, one other caveat if Epcot is to close one or more days....no "dark" days for any of the live entertainment.

You know, even with those caveats, this still doesn't sit right. If business is really that bad, and the reason is tourism in general, then ok (but everytime Disney puts out an attendance report, the drop from last year gets smaller). If the reason is to just squeeze another .2% of ROE so ABC can be propped up, I don't like it. I think the risk of doing significant damage is greater than the benefit to be gained.

 

[JeffH]

The conclusions here make no sense.
If the other parks were not flooded with guests, then they lost a parks worth of people/guests. Now if the overflow equaled the # of
guests that would have been at Epcot and were managed well, then there might be a point.
The problem with AK when it opened was that instead of bringing in a new niche of people, existing guests instead bled over into the
park.
These situation showed that Epcot serves a specific niche bringing in new/different guest, instead of simply stealing them from other
parks. This is exactly the type of separate park that Disney wants, a park that brings in a parks worth of new/different guests to fill the
hotels, and buy tickets.

This will never happen, will never be considered, at least at Epcot.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

You know, I was going to ask this as a hypothetical question, but thought the answer would be a resounding NO. Honestly, Lord Baron, I'm surprised by your stance. I would expect your answer to be something like "NO, why should we have to choose? Why either/or?".

Normally that would indeed be my stance. However, after the ridiculously marshmallow answers I received from Mr. Holmes (a genuine nice guy, but thoroughly Ei$nerized) I have come to accept that hours will NEVER change back. And after my recent stay, and the absolutely rotten time we had trying to live with those hours, I am, quite frankly, DESPERATE!!! To me it comes down to a choice of closing a park and restoring hours or living with the unlivable hours they have instituted. And I really have to tell you it is very hard to keep that cheery, rose-colored outlook I usually have when I visit WDW with these hours during the summer.

And to do both is totally unacceptable and I would seriously resign my commission as Disney booster and really join the basher crowd (I know most of you feel I’m there already, but believe me, I’m not)!! And I would try really hard to talk my wife into selling the DVC (just plain LandBaron, thank you).

No. Please don’t get me wrong. I surely feel that the hours should be restored and that further talk of closing a park for a day should be met with swift and terrible punishment!! But the realist in me believes, like the scarecrow, that it’s going to get darker before it gets lighter. So I’m willing to take any bone that I can at this point. And to me, hours is way more important that a park closing for a day. Heck!! Like AV says, I’m there for three weeks!! I’ll hit them all as many times as I like even if they close them for two days a week!! It’s the per day hours that are much more precious to me!!

 

[mattjs]

So lemme get this straight, they're gonna open the highly anticipated Mission: SPACE this spring, but you'll only be able to check it out on the 5 days a week Epcot's gonna be open.

Please, that's ridiculous. Next rumor.

 

[Jasmine13]

Well, I've heard some really wild rumors, but that one tops them all! Where do you all come up with these things?

 

[Planogirl]

I can see why some people think it's ridiculous for Disney to start closing parks and I can also understand the LandBaron's position on why Disney should. My fear is that Disney may decide to close a park or parks and WON'T extend their hours at other venues. Then what?

 

[raidermatt]

Barring another negative impact to tourism, I honestly don't think this will happen, for whatever its worth (at least not at WDW. DCA? Maybe.).

However, I don't see the potential closing of a park as an accounting trick. Its a pretty up front move, and if a park really is under-performing, closing it can have a positive impact on the financials, at least in the short term. Its just that the backlash from guests, especially those who have booked in the Epcot area could be intense.

I really don't know if current management is engaging in any "questionable" practices. I certainly wouldn't be shocked, but I could say the same of a lot of companies right now. Hopefully, Scoop, your scenario plays out, and we get a more long-term focused mgmt team who understands how to treat assets as valuable as the parks.

So lemme get this straight, they're gonna open the highly anticipated Mission: SPACE this spring, but you'll only be able to check it out on the 5 days a week Epcot's gonna be open.

Please, that's ridiculous. Next rumor.

We've now had several posters who we know have inside info state that the closing of a park for 1-3 days per week is being or has been discussed at high levels.

So its far from ridiculous. Unlikely? Probably, but clearly not ridiculous.

Maybe the most likely target is AK, but M:S does not take Epcot off the list until its ready to open. Its a long time until Spring...

 

[raidermatt]

And to me, hours is way more important that a park closing for a day. Heck!! Like AV says, I’m there for three weeks!! I’ll hit them all as many times as I like even if they close them for two days a week!! It’s the per day hours that are much more precious to me!!

Point taken, and I agree. Our trips look like they will be no shorter than 12 nights, so we could schedule so as to not feel the impact of the closed park. I'm just concerned about those whose first trip to WDW is only 3-4 days. Park closings could make things more difficult for them.

And to do both is totally unacceptable and I would seriously resign my commission as Disney booster and really join the basher crowd

I'd have to gain an understanding of the whole plan before I'd commit to going that far, but I would at least think about picking up a rock or stick myself...

 

[raidermatt]

Nah, you were clear enough, Scoop. Just another example of my well-documented poor reading comprehension skills...

Your scenario raises some hope for an improved situation in the relatively near future. Rumblings about the lack of movement (upward) in the stock price are definitely growing louder...

 

[Lewisc]

No one has commented on this part of the original post:

Other discussions included a discount ticket to just the countries in the evening and completely closing FW. The majority of the parks revenue comes from WSC

I wonder if Disney could get away with closing FW 1 or 2 days a week and just opening WS at 12:00. This would avoid the stigma of closing an entire park and would still give the EPCOT resort guests the WS restaurants and illuminations experience.

Not a rumor but I wonder if Disney would charge resort guests for parking (in the resorts). Universal hotels have been doing this for about a year. This might reduce the incentive for non-resort guests parking in deluxe. This might also give some people a reason not to rent a car.

 

[Dad of 5]

Originally posted by Lewisc
No one has commented on this part of the original post:

I wonder if Disney could get away with closing FW 1 or 2 days a week and just opening WS at 12:00. This would avoid the stigma of closing an entire park and would still give the EPCOT resort guests the WS restaurants and illuminations experience.

Not a rumor but I wonder if Disney would charge resort guests for parking (in the resorts). Universal hotels have been doing this for about a year. This might reduce the incentive for non-resort guests parking in deluxe. This might also give some people a reason not to rent a car.

This is even wackier than the idea of closing the whole of Epcot.

Hey, here's a cost-saving idea: On Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, we'll only open attractions in FW that begin with A-M, and WS countries in NATO.

 

[rasvar]

One thing I would find interesting is possible legal action brought by annual passholders for diminsihed value by the closing. Yes, Disney has a "catch all" disclaimer on the ticket; but, that might not protect them from charges of dishonest advertising based on the current advertising saying all parks, 365 days a year. Not too mention more local ill-will. Plus, loss of future pass sales. I can say, that without Epcot available during the week, I would really have no reason to keep an annual pass. Any of the other parks I go to, I usually go to with friends who work for Disney and can pass me in. I go to Epcot after work in the evenings on a regular basis. I already dropped from premium annual pass to regular when they closed River Country. Universal/IOA is looking like a better deal all the time if they start to close Epcot. I bet the non-Disney parks start to see attendence increases if Epcot closes. Disney is on thin ice as it is as far as theme parks go. They need to be finding better ways to serve their customers and cut without ticking customers off. They would be better off if they raised parking a buck or two then to close the park, IMHO.

 

[C.Ann]

Hmmm.. I live a considerable distance from WDW and therefore am not able to make the several-times-a-year or even yearly trip there that most folks do..

Although I was just there this past September (yes - during the tragedy of 9/11) I have been trying to plan another short trip for this December to help me get over the shock I felt on my last trip.. (I also happen to be a New Yorker..)

If I were to be there for let's say 5 days - and on one (or two) of those days Epcot was closed it would really cause a MAJOR problem for me and I would have to reconsider whether the trip was really worth taking or not..

It just so happens that MK is my favorite - followed closely by EPCOT - then MGM - and my least favorite, Animal Kingdom..

While there last Sept. we also ran into problems with weather (many torrential, long-lasting rainstorms - as well as a hurricane) and it totally threw our plans out of whack so we ended up "doing" Epcot in small pieces each evening.. As someone else has already mentioned, it's a great place to go once the other parks have already closed and I would be devastated if they took this away.. I wouldn't even be surprised to learn that the reason Disney didn't hear MUCH louder grumbling over shortened hours in the other parks is because people felt they could still get their moneys worth by going to Epcot every evening instead..

I'm no financial wizard by any means, but I think this would be a VERY bad idea.. Not everyone who goes to WDW is there for an extended stay - and some not even for a full week - so I'm pretty sure those customers would feel as though they weren't getting their full value with their park hopper passes..

If this rumor ever comes to be, I would really have to think long and hard about whether or not I would ever take a short trip there again (such as 5 days) or if I would opt to just go back every 5 years or so.. If others feel the same, can Disney survive that?

Just my personal opinion..

 

[YoHo]

As AV pointed out way back on I think Page 1, Disney makes very little money on World Showcase as they don't own the resturants and Gift Shops. I too can see this happening and it being not so bad. Remember Landbaron, the rumor is for off peak times, you're summer vacatition schedule would be unaffected for better or for worse. (well, we know that's not really true, but I theory)


Now then, Mr. Scoop, I want to know where the Disney Family fits in your NYC rumblings?

 

[WDWHound]

I would hope that even the Disney accountaneers could see that this is a bad idea. Sadly, I don't put anything past them these days. The singal this would send to the world is "we are in such deep financial trouble that we can no longer to keep all of our parks open all of the time".

The guests would hate it The investors would hate it. Where is the upside? Oh yes, I forgot, there might be some short term profit to be made. I guess it must be a good idea then.

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

I believe you will find them to be a counter-balance to any short-sighted Pressler efforts which could cause long-term damage.

What has changed that we should believe they'll suddenly be a counter-balance, when, as recently as in your post about the DinoRama that never was, there was no such effect in evidence?

I respect your need to protect sources, but understand that the information you've deemed safe for distribution makes your view of this situation "sound" exactly the same as your view of DinoRama, pre-construction; a view that turned out not to reflect the reality of the situation.

When it came to DinoRama, it was scepticism, not belief, that led to the more accurate assessment of what was going to happen. I'm willing to weigh evidence that that situation has changed, but there's been none of that offered.

When I attempt to figure out what Disney is going to do, the bulk of the evidence I consider is simply the actions they've recently taken. Although we might want to _hope_ certain things are beyond consideration, I've seen little _evidence_ that the powers that be share that outlook. I'm not reassured by what appears to me to be a line you've drawn in sand.

I hope you're right about the big happenings afoot... but as we've learned, not even your well-placed sources can consistently predict Disney's actions in this environment.

-WFH

 

[Bstanley]

Other than the spelling of their last name what influence does the family have? Roy Jr. is Vice-Chairman, but he doesn't even own as much stock as he did when he had to get massive help from the Bass boys 20 years ago to get his parking space back.

To apply a lot of force you either need a lot of weight or a long lever. I don't see either in the hands of the Disneys.

Now if ABC continues to do poorly this fall - well perhaps the sheer mass of the disgruntled stockholders will be weighty enough to convince the board to bring in some new management.

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

external forces now exist which did not exist when DCA or even DinoRama were opened

Fair enough assertion.

When you first came to the board, we had a discussion where (and here I color based on my recollections of the thread, it is not my intention to attribute anything falsely. Feel free to contribute your own memories of the posts in question) you countered my Eisner-targetting vitriol with the point that it wasn't Eisner's fault, he was ham-strung by the institutional investors who were _really_ Disney's bosses (I don't think I'm too far off, that conversation had a real effect on me. To a great extent, that conversation marked the point I gave up).

It seems to me that at one point, you were arguing that the nebulous "Wall Street" was the source of the "cheap" problem, now it looks as though you hope it will be part of the solution to that problem.

I'm sorry, I know you think I wait around for you to post so I'll have something to filet for a few minutes, but I swear I'm just trying to understand what you're trying to tell me, and looking for some reason to again believe things that Disney has systematically trained me to no longer hope for.

-WFH