Every Wish That We Put Into Motion.... (comments welcome!)

[disneygpa]

right now all of my running is on the treadmill, so map my run wouldn't really do anything. the garmin was getting closer to matching my treadmill computer, but I was still editing the times/distances on that when i finished a run. I just wanted the convenience of having ALL of the data stored on the same thing for a month-to-month comparison, and a year-end total. It's not a huge deal that I don't have the garmin, but since it was a christmas gift I'm getting a small amount of stink-eye from the husband for not being able to locate it.

Oh yikes!!! Hope you find it soon! I'd be lost without mine.

 

[Herding_Cats]

YAY! Found the garmin last night wedged between the mattress and the headboard. I may go back and see if I can manually enter the runs I did (and just guestimate the durations) without it. I'm more concerned with cumulative mileage than anything else at this point.

 

[Herding_Cats]

It’s been sitting in my closet for 5 months, but I finally “earned” this one today! Long-run pace, so 1:17:01 for a time. On the treadmill (40 degrees and random drizzle today) and it pretty much took 3 episodes of wandavision to complete.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Weekly wrap-up:

9 weeks until North Mitten Half! I desperately want to run this in under 2:20, but I'm pretty sure that's pie-in-the-sky right now (more about this at the end.) Hoping I can really put in the work I need to in the next 9 weeks while baseball consumes large portions of my time. I've been waking up in the middle of the night (for the baby) dreaming about practice plans and tryouts.

Monday: rest day.

Tuesday: 3 miles

Wednesday: 4 miles, and I did intervals for this run to mix things up for a change. It felt really good.

Thursday: was supposed to do 3 miles, but instead I cleaned the chicken coop (last nice day for awhile) and organized all of the paperwork for baseball, fielded parent questions, and sent out a LOT of forms because middle schoolers' backpacks/lockers are black holes for papers.

Friday: rest day

Saturday: Wonder Woman 10k, run at my LR pace of 12:25.

Sunday: 60min zone 2/3 power zone ride on the bike. This felt really good. Heartrate stayed at around 148 the whole time, I was never out of breath, and it never felt terribly difficult.

The Saturday run is the reason I'm not super optimistic about a sub 2:20:00 half. Sustaining my LR pace for a half would put me at just under 2:43:00. I need to cut 1:40 off my pace, and that seems like a LOT. I'm probably overthinking things at this point. Going "faster" is hard right now. I'm just starting pace runs and they are WORK, and around a minute/mile slower than what I'd need to run a 2:20:00. Of course, it's not helping my brain that my SIL ALSO ran the 10k on Saturday and did it in like 48 minutes. I know that her pace is HER pace, but I'm feeling quite turtle-y when I stop and think about how much faster that is than my pace.

On a positive note, this is the first week where my "easy" runs have truly felt EASY and I have had to stop myself from bumping up the speed on the treadmill.

 

[DopeyBadger]

The Saturday run is the reason I'm not super optimistic about a sub 2:20:00 half. Sustaining my LR pace for a half would put me at just under 2:43:00. I need to cut 1:40 off my pace, and that seems like a LOT. I'm probably overthinking things at this point. Going "faster" is hard right now. I'm just starting pace runs and they are WORK, and around a minute/mile slower than what I'd need to run a 2:20:00. Of course, it's not helping my brain that my SIL ALSO ran the 10k on Saturday and did it in like 48 minutes. I know that her pace is HER pace, but I'm feeling quite turtle-y when I stop and think about how much faster that is than my pace.

So it seems like two things at play here that many of us runners think about. Very valid feelings you're having.

1) Worrying about your pace now and projecting it towards 9 weeks from now on race day while not in the midst of training. These are three different training plans progressions for me:



At my bottom, my projected HM pace would have been a 1:44 HM (7:56 pace) and by the end of the training plan a 1:25:30 (6:31 pace). So in theory, my projected HM pace from floor to peak increased by about 90 second per mile over the course of 13-15 weeks.

My mindset when approaching something like this from almost a decade of racing experience is, "Do the best I can". So that comes to training and to what comes at the end. So your best is finding a way for you and your way forward. And that can include times when things don't go your way in training. Whether that's the pace of a training day or whether you have to miss a day. Just do the best you can in training (meaning your scheduled paces and runs and not necessarily actually doing your best on every run) and then do the best you can on your actual race day. If I remember correctly, your paces are set up for a 2:25 HM (11:04 min/mile). So yes, your LR pace is around a 12:25-12:40 and is quite a bit slower than your goal pace. But that's not cause for concern. That's expected. If you put in the training, you'll be able to fill that gap come racing time.

From personal experience, during my training for the 2020 Disney marathon, I was doing short segments of HM Tempo. I did four total workouts of 30 min, 20 min, 35 min, and 15 min of HMT pace prior to my November HM race in the middle of the training plan. And I did those in 6:50, 6:38, 6:52, and 6:39 pace. Despite these only being 35 min or less, I was ABSOLUTELY gassed at the end of these. How could I possibly maintain this pace for 88-92 min instead of 15-30 min like in training? And that comes down to race day isn't in the midst of training. You'll build a progressively higher intensity/volume in training, and then drop it all away during the taper. So if the timing works out, then you'll feel like a million bucks on race day. So despite struggling mightily to maintain HMT for 15-30 min in training, when race day came I ran 6:39 pace for 88 minutes. Something I could only do for 15-20 min in training at a very high level effort. So trust that if you put in the training and follow your plan as best you can, then you can put your best foot forward on race day. It's when we try to project too much, and we lose motivation because of it, which in turns causes us to follow the plan less, that it can spiral a bit on us, and become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Now a 2:20 is possible, but your data suggests a 2:25 at the moment under ideal conditions. So just keeping putting in the work and it'll pay off at the end. Then you can see where you end up.


2) Comparing yourself to others is a road all of us runners go down. And it's a tough road. I want to be as fast as Sten. I'm not. My pace is very turtle-y compared to Sten. His recovery jogging pace is my goal marathon tempo pace. My max effort mile pace is something he just does as a fun run type pace. It is what it is. It doesn't mean that years down the road I couldn't be as fast as Sten. Although in my particular case, given the years of training we've both put in, I find that doubtful. But that's to say, that we all as runners compare ourselves to others. But you've got to choose how you use that information. As motivation or as a downer or as something else. I'm not saying you will or won't be able to eventually run a 48 min 10k. But I can say that if you do your best in training, then you'll eventually find out what is achievable for you.

On a positive note, this is the first week where my "easy" runs have truly felt EASY and I have had to stop myself from bumping up the speed on the treadmill.

Which is a great great sign. It shows things are paying off. Just keep holding back on increasing that easy day speed and it'll pay off on race day. 99 times out of 100 I'll say that you're more likely to have trained too fast than to have trained too slow when it comes to the final race day outcome.

 

[Herding_Cats]

So it seems like two things at play here that many of us runners think about. Very valid feelings you're having.

1) Worrying about your pace now and projecting it towards 9 weeks from now on race day while not in the midst of training.

My mindset when approaching something like this from almost a decade of racing experience is, "Do the best I can". Just do the best you can in training (meaning your scheduled paces and runs and not necessarily actually doing your best on every run) and then do the best you can on your actual race day. If I remember correctly, your paces are set up for a 2:25 HM (11:04 min/mile). So yes, your LR pace is around a 12:25-12:40 and is quite a bit slower than your goal pace. But that's not cause for concern. That's expected. If you put in the training, you'll be able to fill that gap come racing time.

So trust that if you put in the training and follow your plan as best you can, then you can put your best foot forward on race day. It's when we try to project too much, and we lose motivation because of it, which in turns causes us to follow the plan less, that it can spiral a bit on us, and become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Now a 2:20 is possible, but your data suggests a 2:25 at the moment under ideal conditions. So just keeping putting in the work and it'll pay off at the end. Then you can see where you end up.


2) Comparing yourself to others is a road all of us runners go down. And it's a tough road. But I can say that if you do your best in training, then you'll eventually find out what is achievable for you.

Which is a great great sign. It shows things are paying off. Just keep holding back on increasing that easy day speed and it'll pay off on race day. 99 times out of 100 I'll say that you're more likely to have trained too fast than to have trained too slow when it comes to the final race day outcome.

So you're saying I should just do my best and follow my plan?

No really, I appreciate the encouragement and ex. The logical/realistic part of my brain is still winning out over the competitive side at this point. Math may not be my strongest subject, but I have been reminding myself during those easy runs, that because they are only 3-4 miles at this point, speeding up and feeling miserable/high effort will only "save" me 3 or 4 minutes of running time. So it's not worth it, and I just need to enjoy the easy aspect of it. The GOOD thing about all of the treadmill running is that the only way for me to train "too fast" is to purposely increase the speed above what my pacing chart says.

 

[DopeyBadger]

So you're saying I should just do my best and follow my plan?

No really, I appreciate the encouragement and ex. The logical/realistic part of my brain is still winning out over the competitive side at this point. Math may not be my strongest subject, but I have been reminding myself during those easy runs, that because they are only 3-4 miles at this point, speeding up and feeling miserable/high effort will only "save" me 3 or 4 minutes of running time. So it's not worth it, and I just need to enjoy the easy aspect of it. The GOOD thing about all of the treadmill running is that the only way for me to train "too fast" is to purposely increase the speed above what my pacing chart says.

Boiled down, I think you got it.

I really like the line of thinking of how going faster will only save you a few minutes in time but means a world of difference in how your body will perceive it from a training stance.

 

[Herding_Cats]

I have some training timing, and race-course closure questions!

FIRST! Training schedule potential snags/modifications needed.

So right now the plan is to run the half in 9 weeks (May 30), then take 2 weeks "off", and then start training for a full on Oct 2 (using higdon novice 1 i think?, starting on week 3 of that plan I believe.)

We are camping FOR SURE on Father's Day weekend. This is the first week that I will be "back" training, so I don't really anticipate any issues with being able to do the runs, especially since Friday is a rest day, Saturday is only 5 miles, and we would be home on Sunday and I can do the scheduled cross training at home.

We are also camping the last full week of July. The current schedule for those days looks like this:

Saturday: 1/2 marathon (the day we leave for the campground....it's about a 3 hour drive)
I'm not sure how to "fit" this in as DH gets really antsy to leave on trips and fitting in a 2.5 hour run AND being out the door before noon would be very difficult to manage without losing a lot of my patience.
Sunday: cross train
Monday: rest
Tuesday: 3 miles
Wednesday: 7 miles
Thursday: 4 miles
Friday: rest
Saturday: 10 miles
10 miles means, for me, around 2 hours. And while I'm not adverse to doing a 10 mile run, I don't think SIL will want to tag along for that far/long, and the comfort level of being gone for that long outside of our "home" bubble isn't great. I know there's a nice recreation trail right across the road from the campground, but this is a hugely busy tourist location, especially in the summer months.
Sunday: cross train (the day we go home, again, a 3 hour drive plus all of the unpacking and cleaning up)

Actual race day course-closure/sweep question:
The full I am considering running in October has a 6 hour limit. It's a somewhat hilly course, and the weather has been historically wet and windy (combined with the usual Lake Michigan shoreline windiness) and in the upper 30s to start the race.

My "projected" finish time (right now) for a full is 5:04. Considering that the weather is usually not great and the hill-factor, is it pretty reasonable that I would be able to finish within the allotted time? My SIL is on the fence but leaning toward the half at this point, so if I DID decide to upgrade my registration to the full, I would be running it by myself. I'm not planning on making a decision one way to the other until AFTER we run the half in the end of May.

I know October is a looooooong way away, but I also don't want to devote huge blocks of time (including 2.5 hours most saturdays, all summer) to training for a race that is iffy for me to complete "in time" when I could do significantly less training and just run the half that I'm currently registered for. If that makes sense.

 

[DopeyBadger]

FIRST! Training schedule potential snags/modifications needed.

So right now the plan is to run the half in 9 weeks (May 30), then take 2 weeks "off", and then start training for a full on Oct 2 (using higdon novice 1 i think?, starting on week 3 of that plan I believe.)

We are camping FOR SURE on Father's Day weekend. This is the first week that I will be "back" training, so I don't really anticipate any issues with being able to do the runs, especially since Friday is a rest day, Saturday is only 5 miles, and we would be home on Sunday and I can do the scheduled cross training at home.

We are also camping the last full week of July. The current schedule for those days looks like this:

Saturday: 1/2 marathon (the day we leave for the campground....it's about a 3 hour drive)
I'm not sure how to "fit" this in as DH gets really antsy to leave on trips and fitting in a 2.5 hour run AND being out the door before noon would be very difficult to manage without losing a lot of my patience.
Sunday: cross train
Monday: rest
Tuesday: 3 miles
Wednesday: 7 miles
Thursday: 4 miles
Friday: rest
Saturday: 10 miles
10 miles means, for me, around 2 hours. And while I'm not adverse to doing a 10 mile run, I don't think SIL will want to tag along for that far/long, and the comfort level of being gone for that long outside of our "home" bubble isn't great. I know there's a nice recreation trail right across the road from the campground, but this is a hugely busy tourist location, especially in the summer months.
Sunday: cross train (the day we go home, again, a 3 hour drive plus all of the unpacking and cleaning up)

So from this:



Into this:



So you're camping in Week 8 (week of 7/19/21 starting on Saturday through the week of 7/26/21 arriving home on 8/1/21).

-How much time could you train on Friday 7/23/21? How does that compare to the maximum you could train on Saturday 7/24/21?
-How much time could you train on Monday 8/2/21? How does that compare to the maximum you'd want to train on either Saturday 7/31 or Sunday 8/1?

Actual race day course-closure/sweep question:
The full I am considering running in October has a 6 hour limit. It's a somewhat hilly course, and the weather has been historically wet and windy (combined with the usual Lake Michigan shoreline windiness) and in the upper 30s to start the race.

My "projected" finish time (right now) for a full is 5:04. Considering that the weather is usually not great and the hill-factor, is it pretty reasonable that I would be able to finish within the allotted time? My SIL is on the fence but leaning toward the half at this point, so if I DID decide to upgrade my registration to the full, I would be running it by myself. I'm not planning on making a decision one way to the other until AFTER we run the half in the end of May.

I know October is a looooooong way away, but I also don't want to devote huge blocks of time (including 2.5 hours most saturdays, all summer) to training for a race that is iffy for me to complete "in time" when I could do significantly less training and just run the half that I'm currently registered for. If that makes sense.

So I was not able to find someone with Strava Premium in the 2019 finishers of Sleeping Bear. I did find one runner without Strava premium.

https://www.strava.com/activities/2765132766
The elevation gain he had was about 900 feet and the elevation gain on your MMR says 1300 feet total.

According to this:

https://findmymarathon.com/marathon-conversion-result.php


Although that's not my typical tool. It says a relatively flat race like Disney is about 5 min easier for a 5hr marathon runner than is Sleeping Bear. Or about 11 seconds per mile. That sounds at least reasonable for a 900-1300 foot race. That late hill at 21-25 is really not well timed because that's a rough spot for such a hill. So anywhere around 5-10 min of hills.

Here's the tricky part, the marathon "projection" is worth as much as the paper you right it on. Projections are reasonably good for most people at distances of HM or less. But the marathon is a completely different beast.

Ian Williams: An Updated Race Equivalency Calculator Attempt

"If" you run a 2:25 in May, then I would place the following projections on the marathon:

6% of runners would do a 5:02 or less
10% of runners would do a 5:04 or less
25% of runners would do a 5:11 or less
50% of runners would do a 5:22 or less

My gut instinct says as a first time marathon runner, you're more likely to be in the bottom 50% of converters than you are the top 50% of converters. So I think a more reasonable projection is in the 5:22 or less range. Now you do have a leg up on others because you'll be appropriately training relatively slower than your current fitness than most. And that's a big key in being a good converter. But I'd feel confident saying I wouldn't expect anything close to the 5:00-5:10 range for a first time out. But that's all "if" you run a 2:25 in May, if you're well trained in October, if you don't make any significant gains between May and October, and if you have good conditions for the marathon on race day. A lot of variables can move that projection which is nearly 6 months out either faster or slower. With the difficulty of the course, I'd say you'd finish in the 5:25-5:40 range. For you to finish in the 6 hour range, then according to the Ian Williams calculator, you would need to be in the bottom 1% of all converters. So it's possible, but I would put the possibility as pretty low.

 

[JAMIESMITH]

Saturday: 1/2 marathon (the day we leave for the campground....it's about a 3 hour drive)
I'm not sure how to "fit" this in as DH gets really antsy to leave on trips and fitting in a 2.5 hour run AND being out the door before noon would be very difficult to manage without losing a lot of my patience.

Could you go for a run at the campground? Maybe while your husband gets things set up?

 

[Herding_Cats]

Into this:

View attachment 565853

So you're camping in Week 8 (week of 7/19/21 starting on Saturday through the week of 7/26/21 arriving home on 8/1/21).

-How much time could you train on Friday 7/23/21? How does that compare to the maximum you could train on Saturday 7/24/21?
-How much time could you train on Monday 8/2/21? How does that compare to the maximum you'd want to train on either Saturday 7/31 or Sunday 8/1?

Oooooh, I see what you did there. So yes. I could do a longer run on Friday before for sure. I MIGHT be able to squeeze in 3 or 4 miles on Saturday morning if I was really "on it" and had EVERYTHING done on Friday afternoon/evening, but that could easily go out the window with getting everything else around the house buttoned up for the week on Saturday morning (chickens, garden, packing up the dogs, etc.)

The 31st/1st/2nd......the 31st would probably need to be 90min or less. I could definitely do the cross training on sunday/1st (I probably won't WANT to, but it might feel good to sit in the air conditioning and pedal), and I can do whatever I "should" do on Monday the 2nd. Hopefully not too long of a run since that week has a 15 miler.

My gut instinct says as a first time marathon runner, you're more likely to be in the bottom 50% of converters than you are the top 50% of converters. So I think a more reasonable projection is in the 5:22 or less range. Now you do have a leg up on others because you'll be appropriately training relatively slower than your current fitness than most. And that's a big key in being a good converter. But I'd feel confident saying I wouldn't expect anything close to the 5:00-5:10 range for a first time out. But that's all "if" you run a 2:25 in May, if you're well trained in October, if you don't make any significant gains between May and October, and if you have good conditions for the marathon on race day. A lot of variables can move that projection which is nearly 6 months out either faster or slower. With the difficulty of the course, I'd say you'd finish in the 5:25-5:40 range. For you to finish in the 6 hour range, then according to the Ian Williams calculator, you would need to be in the bottom 1% of all converters. So it's possible, but I would put the possibility as pretty low.

Yeah I knew it would be a very broad estimate. It's nice to know that the numbers are on my side as far as being able to finish in time at this point. It appears that my plan to "wait and see how May goes" was appropriate..

Could you go for a run at the campground? Maybe while your husband gets things set up?

On arrival day? Not a chance. 4 kids (one is 18mo), 3 dogs, all of the camper set-up, and helping BIL/SIL get their camper set up as well since they are borrowing. With the timing of everything we usually arrive, set up, and start working on prepping dinner. Plus it'll be the end of July, and an afternoon run that time of year, even in Michigan, would not be pleasant. I'm tentatively planning to run in the mornings while we are there; the campground is HUGE so we could likely just run a few laps around that for the short runs, and there's a recreation biking/walking trail that connects 2 towns right across the road (I think a lot of it is paved) to use for the longer runs.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Oooooh, I see what you did there. So yes. I could do a longer run on Friday before for sure. I MIGHT be able to squeeze in 3 or 4 miles on Saturday morning if I was really "on it" and had EVERYTHING done on Friday afternoon/evening, but that could easily go out the window with getting everything else around the house buttoned up for the week on Saturday morning (chickens, garden, packing up the dogs, etc.)

Alright, so the week of 7/19/21, I would propose the following:

M- OFF
T- 3 miles @ 14:00 pace (42 min)
W- 5 miles @ 14:00 pace (70 min)
R- OFF
F- 120 min @ 12:34 pace (about 9.5 miles)
Sa- 2 miles @ 14:00 pace (28 min)
Su- OFF

If you don't think you can handle 28 min on Saturday morning, then do the same workout on Thursday instead.

The 31st/1st/2nd......the 31st would probably need to be 90min or less. I could definitely do the cross training on sunday/1st (I probably won't WANT to, but it might feel good to sit in the air conditioning and pedal), and I can do whatever I "should" do on Monday the 2nd. Hopefully not too long of a run since that week has a 15 miler.

Alright, for this week I propose:

M- OFF
T- 3 miles @ 14:00 pace (42 min)
W- 6.5 miles @ 14:00 pace (91 min)
R- 2 miles @ 14:00 pace (28 min)
F- 10 min @ 14:00 pace + 4 x 15 min @ 11:32 pace w/ 4 min walk or 14:00 pace + 10 min @ 14:00 pace (total time = 92 min = 10+10+(4x15)+(3x4))
Sa- OFF
Su- Cross
M- OFF

This is pretty far advance in time and things could undoubtedly change between now and then. With that being said, I think this is how I would edit the plan with keeping the author in mind.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Weekly wrap up (was going to do this last night but with the site being down that obviously didn’t happen.)

Monday: off

Tuesday: 3 miles; it was in the mid 60s and supposed to be the last nice day for the week so I ran outside and this run was amazing and effortless.

Wednesday: 4 mile “pace” run and I didn’t quite get there for pace (ran around 12mm instead of 1130)

Thursday: 3 miles, and it wasn’t great. And very frustrating because of how well Tuesday went.

Friday: rest day

Saturday: 45min power zone ride on the bike. This felt nice, but I did “feel it” in my legs.

Sunday: 7 miles. I switched the days for this run with the cross training and these miles were brutal. It was super nice out, so after cleaning chicken coops I decided to run outside because 90min on the treadmill on a nice day sounded gross. I convinced DH to run “with” me so he would get his 2.5 miles in and he pushed the stroller and did his workout and I continued on my way. Came back home after 4 miles and finished on the treadmill, and I basically had to force myself to do those last 3 miles. My legs were tired. My core was sore (thanks to some of the exercises pt gave me on Tuesday morning) and I didn’t enjoy it at all except for the fact that I did gut the run out and finish it. I did manage to average out to “long run” pace but it was all over the place even though the garmin shows my cadence in a very flat graph.

Made a plan to start including cross training (doing p90x3 workouts) 3-4x a week. We will see how it goes as baseball season starts tomorrow and we still don’t have coaches for one of the teams, which will likely end up being me and DH splitting up and going to different locations for games which will be super time consuming

And I got an appointment for my first covid shot on Thursday.

 

[Herding_Cats]

What a week. I severely underestimated the amount of running around and paperwork I would have to do for baseball. Left for practice at around 2:30 every day, and was home by 6:30, just in time to throw dinner together and then work on practice plans, fundraiser accounting, and organizing uniform orders until after 9:00.

Monday: rest day (much needed after those 7mi on Sunday)

Tuesday: 3 miles. Outside, because the baby will usually nap in the stroller and it was GORGEOUS out.

Wednesday: 4 miles. Outside with the stroller again. Really forced myself to slow down for this run since I tend to keep the same pace as when I don't have the stroller.

Thursday: nothing. baby refused to nap, had my J&J shot after lunch and then went directly to practice.

Friday: kept as a rest day in case I had side effects. I was COLD in the evening, but we were also out in 50 degrees and off and on misting for almost 3 hours at practice. I was just plain cold, so I'm not sure if this would count as "chills" side-effect or just the fact that I get cold easily.

Saturday: Tired. Not exhausted, but definintely a lower energy level (guessing it was a side-effect). Planned on pushing my 8mi long run to Sunday.

Sunday: Baby got something in her eye Saturday evening and spent a lot of the night being miserable, and THEN decided that 3am was a great time to wake up, and 4am was when we were getting up for the day. I got about 4 hours of sleep. 8 miles was NOT going to happen.

Basically I only managed to get 7 of 18 miles run, and I'm not very thrilled about it. This looks like it's supposed to be a "step back" week with a 5k this weekend instead of a long run. And it's my SW 5k. I'm planning on attempting the 8 miles today (and of course it's chilly and foggy today so it'll all be on the treadmill), probably resting or walking my 3 miles tomorrow, and then completing the week as scheduled. I think we are over the hump of getting everything organized at this point. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

Eta: it was actually decent out, so I attempted the 8 miles. The baby slept for 4 and was d.o.n.e. after that. So that run is getting split into 2 parts today hopefully

 

[Herding_Cats]

I need to figure out a few different fueling strategies to try in the next few weeks. I know there are a lot of posts about the is, but a lot of them are also kind of spread out and buried in pretty long threads. I want something simple....like ONE thing to use so I don’t have to think too hard. I have 4 long runs to try stuff out on, and a couple of mid-week 6ish mile runs to try stuff with caffeine. My hydration vest holds up to 1.8L, so I’ll probably have around 1.5L of water in it to start the race and I have been running with it at least half full for a month to get used to the feel/weight.

From a timing perspective, it looks like around the 1 hour mark seems to be a common recommendation for a starting point (which will likely be somewhere between mile 5 and 6.) And then something every ___mi or minutes? The local running store has individual packets of a few different kinds of tailwind, gu, and some other stuff I can’t recall off the top of my head.

I can say that I don’t like to work out on an empty stomach, but also that I don’t like to eat and then immediately work out...I usually give myself at least an hour after eating before I do any kind of bouncy/running type exercise, so I’m hesitant on the actual food/chew it up items. Plus it’s “just” a half.

 

[jmasgat]

So fueling is most definitely "an experiment of one" --you will find something that works for you. I'll give you my example--only to show you my thought process/body preference.

I currently use gels. Why? First, I don't like consuming vast quantities of liquid (e.g. Powerade/Gatorade) to get my nutrition. I don't want to feel a sloshy stomach when I run. Next, I am not going to deal with chewing anything (e.g sport beans, gummies, etc)--it takes too long and if I am racing (vs training) I don't have the mental focus to deal with that (frankly, it would piss me off!). Finally, I like the discrete known quantity of a gel pack--I know exactly what I am consuming when I consume it. Also, unrelated to form of fuel, I always stop briefly to fuel unless racing, and I do it every 30 minutes or so after the first 45 minutes or so.

One other comparable solution that I have also tried is to do a concentrated form of something like Tailwind--mix it so you get the equivalent calories of a gel in a very small amount of liquid. But you need a small bottle to carry that, and if you use a hydration vest, that may not be an option.

Good luck finding something that works for you.

 

[Herding_Cats]

For sure on the experiment part, but I’m kind of looking for some concrete examples (like you gave, where it’s very straightforward) as a starting point. I have no idea what I’m doing.

My vest does have front pockets so I could carry bottles there, but that would be another thing to purchase (since I don’t want to put anything other than water in the vest’s bladder.)

 

[DopeyBadger]

I need to figure out a few different fueling strategies to try in the next few weeks. I know there are a lot of posts about the is, but a lot of them are also kind of spread out and buried in pretty long threads. I want something simple....like ONE thing to use so I don’t have to think too hard. I have 4 long runs to try stuff out on, and a couple of mid-week 6ish mile runs to try stuff with caffeine. My hydration vest holds up to 1.8L, so I’ll probably have around 1.5L of water in it to start the race and I have been running with it at least half full for a month to get used to the feel/weight.

From a timing perspective, it looks like around the 1 hour mark seems to be a common recommendation for a starting point (which will likely be somewhere between mile 5 and 6.) And then something every ___mi or minutes? The local running store has individual packets of a few different kinds of tailwind, gu, and some other stuff I can’t recall off the top of my head.

I can say that I don’t like to work out on an empty stomach, but also that I don’t like to eat and then immediately work out...I usually give myself at least an hour after eating before I do any kind of bouncy/running type exercise, so I’m hesitant on the actual food/chew it up items. Plus it’s “just” a half.

So a few things:

-Research shows that while you're unlikely to reach glycogen depletion in a half marathon, that performance in events longer than 90 min show noticeable differences when intaking carbs. Even more so with carb loading than in-race nutrition.

-If you take a single sourced carb (like Sports Beans), then the limit of consumption is 60g of carbs per hour.
-If you take a multi sourced carb (like GU Chocolate Outrage which contains both Maltodrextin and Fructose), then the limit of consumption is 90g of carbs per hour, or approximately 4 gels).
-If the race temps are above 90F, then limit yourself to 50g of carbs per hour.
*These are all maximums and you can certainly do less. I prefer to find my maximum tolerance, then find my minimum before the carbs become a reason for decreased performance.

-Almost all carb sources need 1 oz of water for every 2g carb consumed. So if you eat a single GU pack with 21 g carbs, then your body will need 10.5 oz of water minimally to be able to absorb it. Otherwise, your body will steal water from your muscles in order to digest. This commonly creates gut issues and feelings of dehydration.
-Maurten gels require no liquid intake.
-Maurten 320 is 4g carbs per 1 oz water unlike most all other sources at 2:1.

-Consider the possibility of electrolyte replacement as well. Some gels have a high content of sodium and potassium. Others do not. Some have one or the other.

-Timing wise I prefer to start right before the race begins and throughout the entire event. The closer you get to the end of the event, the harder you'll be working and the less ability you'll have to easily digest things you intake. So I recommend starting earlier than later, because it's easier to intake at the beginning.

My go to recommendation for a single use, easy to remember item, are Egels. https://www.cranksports.com/

They are multi sourced (Maltodrextin and Fructose) and they contain a higher content of sodium/potassium than most other products. The main drawback is their general size is 1.5x most other gels. So you get 150 calories or 37g carbs per packet whereas most others are 100 calories and 20ish g carbs. So the packet is larger. Since they are 37g a piece, I would recommend no more than 2 per hour. I would eat one within 15 min of starting, and then every 30-45 min after that. My breakthrough marathon in 2015 I consumed 7 gels in a 3:38hr event. Once inside 30 min of finishing, you don't really need anything. You can swish carbs from a liquid source and spit it out if desired, but your body won't absorb anything fast enough within 30 min for it to matter.

If you want a single liquid item to use, then I would go with Tailwind. It's cheap, has the ability to dilute/concentrate (although this does not change the need for 2:1 water to carbs), and contains a decent amount of sodium/potassium. If you want to use concentrated Tailwind, then my go to super concentrate is stored in this hammer nutrition bottle which is fairly small.

https://thefeed.com/products/hammer...TzQeEEug2i17GUwMD8n3TWWI7fquHlF0aAorNEALw_wcB

 

[meye1099]

My advice is if you’re on a long run, start fueling before you think you need to. If you wait until you’re fatigued or hungry, it’s too late. I don’t know the exact biology behind it, but I think it has to do with the simple carbs, like sugar, that can be immediately used for muscle energy (glycogen?), so you want to keep up with that so your body doesn’t have to tap into its deeper energy storage. Like, um, triglycerides, I think? I'm not confident in my scientific knowledge, but I do know you want to start consuming fuels earlier than later during your long run or race.

I take my first gel after about 30 minutes or three-ish miles, and then every three to four miles after that. Some may say that’s too much, but it works for me.

Also, I start fueling when I hit 5- or 6-mile runs in a training cycle just to train my digestive system to handle fuel while running—especially if I'm trying a new type of fuel—so I’m not too far from my bathroom if things get ugly.

Also, mixing electrolyte sources might upset your digestive system —I.e. don’t wash your gel down with Gatorade. You do want to drink water with whatever solid/gel you are using though. (I see that was already mentioned above, but worth repeating!)

I personally think fueling is kind of fun to play around with—finding which gel flavors are best or trying jelly beans or Gu chews. Some people even use simple candy, like Starburst. So have fun with it and good luck!

 

[Herding_Cats]

Weekly wrap up:

So the trend seems to be that if I miss/"reschedule" my Saturday run, everything goes to crap. I guess it's time to really buckle down on that particular run.

Monday: was intended to be a 'make up' day for missing out on my 8 miler. I did manage to get 4 miles in, but they were slow, and pushing the stroller uphill (or at least on an upward incline that lead to a hill) for almost a mile and a half was brutal. Decided to tack on an extra mile here and there for the rest of the week to try to beef up the weekly total without completely over-doing it.

Tuesday: Scheduled for 3 miles, ran 4. Was sore from Monday.

Wednesday: rested because I was still sore

Thursday: 4 mile pace run. On the treadmill. Ended up having to adjust the belt because it was off to the side for some reason, and because that ate up a bunch of nap time (finding the tools i needed, trying to remember how to adjust it, etc) this was split into 1 mile, and then 3 miles later on. The pace felt VERY doable, which was nice.

Friday: Off day again. So much running around for baseball. We had 4 more kids join this week and uniforms had already been ordered so this was a bit of a nightmare trying to get pants ordered, adjust who gets what size jersey, etc.

Saturday: impromptu overnight trip downstate. Got lots of walking in, but no running (was scheduled to do my SW 5k)

Sunday: we didn't get back home until late afternoon, and then went to the ball field to do some batting practice. Lots of steps, but no running.

I did manage to make a stop at the local running store yesterday (monday) and get an assortment of things to try (with and without caffeine) for fueling.

Today I'll be doing my 5k (instead of my normal 3 miles) on the treadmill since it's snowing. Again. Hoping to be around the 33-34min mark.