Excuse Me, “Legacy Fans”? We Might Just Be Disney’s Only Way Forward.

[gharter]

Interesting article. many good points.
I agree that many of the younger generations don't have Disney or Universal on their radar. Maybe after they are married and have kids, that may change, but not a given.
If their current attitudes continue, both will suddenly hope the "legacy" guests continue.

 

[Anthony1971]

DVC provides a revenue stream when times are good but more importantly when times are bad…. It is a timeshare if the points are not used they are lost….Mo matter how you cut the cake DVC owners will go to Disney and spend money maybe not what they want but enough to maintain the parks and restaurants that are open in bad times.

 

[Jrb1979]

Interesting article. many good points.
I agree that many of the younger generations don't have Disney or Universal on their radar. Maybe after they are married and have kids, that may change, but not a given.
If their current attitudes continue, both will suddenly hope the "legacy" guests continue.

I agree with that thinking. I'm in my 40's and the majority of my friends families have no interest in Disney or Universal. A lot of that is due to the IP not being the draw it used to be. Take my family, IP does nothing for us, it's how good the ride is.

 

[RoseGold]

Oh, totally agree with you there. We only have a trip booked because of the Galactic Starcruiser.

If you're going to Galactic Starcruiser, you are totally a favorable!!! That's a cool example IMO of Disney doing something right. Providing a super-premium experience with the price to match it.

 

[RoseGold]

However, I see a contradiction here. On one hand, Disney wants families who do very infrequent trips but spend a lot of money on each. On the other hand, Disney is building more and more DVC units, which obviously cater to frequent guests. And DVC units have kitchens, which enable guests to spend a lot less on food. I wonder how these two guest types fit in Disney's plans?

DVC completely scrapped the plans for Reflections, which was a gigantic resort with hundreds of rooms. It had already started site preparation in 2020. Disney replanted the grass, removed everything, and scrubbed every reference to it on the website.

The last DVC new build was Riviera, which opened in 2019. It's maybe half-sold three years later, which is horribly slow in DVC pace.

The newest project was a flip of a small, old GF building that needed to be renovated anyway. Compared to the rest of DVC, it was very small. And none of the VGF2 rooms had kitchens. The original plans didn't even have microwaves, but they were added at opening.

The next project will be Polynesian 2, opening late 2024. No one knows whether it will have the larger rooms, like the larger DVC buildings do. This will be a huge gap in construction, compared to the pace DVC was running at. And it might even be a small building. We don't know the scale of it yet.

I'm not sure DVC does "cater to frequent guests" anymore. The VGF2 build was just hotel rooms, and those rooms are always the first to book. DVC has a huge industry of renting out the points, because at the end of the day it's a comp to a Disney hotel room. I could see the Poly2 build totally going in that direction.

 

[DCLMP]

DVC provides a revenue stream when times are good but more importantly when times are bad…. It is a timeshare if the points are not used they are lost….Mo matter how you cut the cake DVC owners will go to Disney and spend money maybe not what they want but enough to maintain the parks and restaurants that are open in bad times.

They are more likely to rent out their points when times are bad. If I owned DVC I'd probably use my points and not even go to the parks.

 

[CarolynFH]

They are more likely to rent out their points when times are bad. If I owned DVC I'd probably use my points and not even go to the parks.

The main thing is, when times are bad the DVC owners pay to maintain and operate those resorts, whether anyone stays there or not.

 

[bsmcneil]

I don't disagree, but it's hostile design to the favorables. It doesn't even register in the cheap seats. I've ridden everything. I don't care about G+, so I'm not up at 7AM. I have an Owner's Locker, I don't care about ME or the luggage transfer anymore.

My first Disney trip, with a <2 year old was sheer magic. No car seats, they schlepped the luggage, rides were planned months ahead, wonderful. That's the kind of experience the favorables should be having and paying for. They'd be willing to pay for ADRs and pay for light sabers, and pay for dessert parties. And all of that is booked solid. I mean, why on earth was BBB closed so long??

It's the things the favorables want that are so poorly implemented. Well, except ILL$. That's going great, for them and shareholders.

I don't know about your location - but where I live, at least half of the salons/places to get haircuts have closed down (making the remaining open places super hard to navigate). Isn't BBB basically a salon? It seems like simple supply/demand issues to me - is your sense that BBB was closed because they disliked making money (BBB didn't even provide goods, really - service-based sales at WDW bring about huge profits. So, it seems like why wouldn't they want to open it, if they could).

 

[MomOTwins]

I think folks are really underestimating two things:
(1) Sure, Gen Z young adults may not care much about Disney NOW, and maybe would rather globetrot etc. But when they have kids, and those kids grow a few years and start watching TV, they are going to see a Disney World commercial and beg mom and dad. And even though Mom and Dad think it will be cheesy and lame, they will go to Disney World, and there they will see the magic in their children's eyes, and their wallets will gush forth with cash. As long as people keep having kids, Disney knows the "favorable guests" who come for expensive splurge trips will keep on coming.
(2) International visitors--now that getting to the USA is easier than in Covid times, Disney may be banking on the fact that even if its domestic audience tapers off a bit, that'll be offset by travelers from outside the US, often with a lot of money to spare.

I am definitely "unfavorable/legacy" these days. I have DVC, I know all the price-saving hacks, I budget out my trips, I don't get suckered in to paying for dessert parties. But I am well aware Disney would do just fine and dandy without me.

Plus, I did a totally non-Disney vacation this summer with my kids. And guess what? I paid MORE than a typical Disney trip (prices are intense everywhere now), and I had a worse time in so many ways that had me saying "this wouldn't happen at Disney." From getting the wrong room category without enough beds because they double-booked, to restaurants where they refused to make very simple modifications for my autistic kid (e.g., no sprinkling basil on top of the cheese pizza) , to loooooooong lines and massive crowds at tourist sites (so much so we joked we were at basically Disney World, but without any rides and no way to skip the lines with DAS or FP/Genie). I could list dozens of things but it boiled down to this: it made me really appreciate that for all my frustration with missing the "good old days" at Disney (DME, fastpass, dining plan), the current watered down Disney World experience is still a pretty awesome vacation for our family. I went from wanting to take a break from Disney for a couple years to planning to go back in a couple months.

It is such a shame because Disney used to be my place where everything was perfect. Now definitely not perfect, but good enough to keep my coming back. And I think D'Amaro knows it.

 

[wdw&sonny]

Disney is always evolving. Maybe it is even transitioning...from our classics of Pirates and Haunted Mansion to Star Wars and Marvel. Gen Z/alpha did not grow up watching Peter Pan or Snow White. They will refer to Toy Story, Flight of Passage and RotR as "Classics". They will remember the 'good ol days' when park admission was only $100 and G+ was only $15. "When I was your age gas only cost $5/gal". Inflation and change happen. I don't like it either. That's why I am becoming a grouchy old man. Disney will keep rolling forward to satisfy the younger generations so they become "Legacy". Current legacy will be gone.

 

[samsteele]

Another great article by Zoe. Another take is to consider why Josh and WDW 'placed' this article with WSJ. This isn't a puff piece or advertising flyer. This is a direct message to shareholders who are the targets reading the WSJ. It's a "look how we are putting our shareholders first" article. It's a pull back the curtains and understand the shareholder is more valued than the customer. Are they expecting a market downturn this fall? So hang in with us through the worst of it because you are valued kind of campaign? Who knows.

We shouldn't be shocked by the article. We should be shocked that WDW doesn't care if the 'legacy guests' also read the WSJ. Shareholders won't be happy if the legacy guest grandparents with cash won't take the grandkids to WDW for the big luxury vacations anymore. And some shareholders are actually legacy guests. It's not a zero sum pool. It's a callous and rude article. But with little to no pushback after the minding your waistline comment at the call, it's emboldened execs to say exactly what's on their mind.

A quick note re the big surge of international guests waiting to get in. Most international guests earn their money in a currency that is devalued against the US$. So there's a hard exchange rate cost before we even purchase the trip. While there will always be some international whales who don't care if they splurge out on a $20K theme park experience, many international guests have decided they'd rather save to hedge food inflation and natural gas and gas prices. Spendy vacations are the first nonessential to get cut by middle and upper middle class guests when faced with inflation and recession. I don't think there's any big wave of international guests ready to storm the gates. Certainly not with a hard cold winter on the way. I'm a Cdn who hasn't been to WDW since 2018. I can wait.

 

[JodyLynC]

Another great article by Zoe. Another take is to consider why Josh and WDW 'placed' this article with WSJ. This isn't a puff piece or advertising flyer. This is a direct message to shareholders who are the targets reading the WSJ. It's a "look how we are putting our shareholders first" article. It's a pull back the curtains and understand the shareholder is more valued than the customer. Are they expecting a market downturn this fall? So hang in with us through the worst of it because you are valued kind of campaign? Who knows.

We shouldn't be shocked by the article. We should be shocked that WDW doesn't care if the 'legacy guests' also read the WSJ. Shareholders won't be happy if the legacy guest grandparents with cash won't take the grandkids to WDW for the big luxury vacations anymore. And some shareholders are actually legacy guests. It's not a zero sum pool. It's a callous and rude article. But with little to no pushback after the minding your waistline comment at the call, it's emboldened execs to say exactly what's on their mind.

A quick note re the big surge of international guests waiting to get in. Most international guests earn their money in a currency that is devalued against the US$. So there's a hard exchange rate cost before we even purchase the trip. While there will always be some international whales who don't care if they splurge out on a $20K theme park experience, many international guests have decided they'd rather save to hedge food inflation and natural gas and gas prices. Spendy vacations are the first nonessential to get cut by middle and upper middle class guests when faced with inflation and recession. I don't think there's any big wave of international guests ready to storm the gates. Certainly not with a hard cold winter on the way. I'm a Cdn who hasn't been to WDW since 2018. I can wait.

Samsteele you raise some very valid and concerning points.

 

[BK2014]

The article's author seem to interpret the term "Legacy Fans" as some sort of condescending title. I don't see it that way at all. If you substitute "Long-term Disney fans" would that be considered a negative reference as well? Many of the recent comments from top Disney officials make them seem out of touch with reality as I mentioned previously.

I agree with this. The author seemed to base the entire article off of the chosen interpretation of "legacy fans" - "Now, if simply not being a collective doormat means we need a new passive-aggressively condescending title like “Legacy Fans,” then take a seat, Josh D’Amaro; we need to have a little chat." - and then used that interpretation to take offense at the term.

"Now they want to segregate their market into groups; those who they believe will visit infrequently and spend the most with the slightest complaint, and those who continue to return consistently but also require a certain standard to be upheld to be appeased."

These are very legitimate groups that a business should take into consideration, and doing so is in no way a slight to either the former or latter groups. The problem is that the same things aren't going to appeal to both groups and, as these boards seem to prove over and over again, the latter group is more than willing to continue to return and spend money despite the changes that they complain about. Until they stop doing that, it only makes sense to continue finding ways to draw in the the infrequent guests.

 

[Smugpugmug]

I think folks are really underestimating two things:
(1) Sure, Gen Z young adults may not care much about Disney NOW, and maybe would rather globetrot etc. But when they have kids, and those kids grow a few years and start watching TV, they are going to see a Disney World commercial and beg mom and dad. And even though Mom and Dad think it will be cheesy and lame, they will go to Disney World, and there they will see the magic in their children's eyes, and their wallets will gush forth with cash. As long as people keep having kids, Disney knows the "favorable guests" who come for expensive splurge trips will keep on coming.

While I agree that people will keep taking their kids to Disney, there is an uptrend of Gen Z adults that are choosing not to have kids, not just in the US but in other western countries. I read an article where 1 in 5 women in the UK are childless at age 30. I also think it will be a hard sell for a watered down Disney experience at the prices they charge for people that do not care about Disney at all. Especially when there is a lot of competition for places to vacation to.

 

[Cynner]

AMEN..... stop thinking that ANY Corp is your friend.

Sure - but Reputation & Customer Service is one of the pillars. I work for a Gov agency that you literally have no other option but to deal with, and Reputation is still absolutely critical. Disney is swimming in the post Covid demand and are forgetting it’s going to go away. That they are putting a sour taste in their repeat customers and we will choose another option. It’s a big freaking world, lots to see.
Legacy is also like Alumni - we are their free word of mouth advertising. We bring our kids and grand kids and make them new fans and customers. But why visit the countries in Epcot when I can take them to the real place? If I want thrill rides, Cedar Point kills it for a fraction of the price. If I want luxury- we all know Disney fails in comparison to real luxury resorts. We come for the Magic - yes we freaking know it’s an illusion, but it’s a pleasing one we choose. If they are going to make us feel unvalued and open up the curtains removing that illusion - I have other things to spend 10k+ a year on.

 

[disneyseniors]

Even with the so called revenge travel Disney is not as crowded as 2019. I expect attendance to fall further next year for a lot reasons.

We also need to take into consideration the huge numbers of foreign travelers coming to disney. They have waited a long time to get to disney. I imagine a lot of the crowds are now due to that. But what happens when this type of international travel calms down? Right now disney is very happy but I wonder if this will all hold out. I know it's very expensive for international travelers with the cost of flights, even with their perks for traveling here. Just a thought about what might occur later when all the "revenge" and international travel cools off.

 

[Mousefan mom]

Sure - but Reputation & Customer Service is one of the pillars. I work for a Gov agency that you literally have no other option but to deal with, and Reputation is still absolutely critical. Disney is swimming in the post Covid demand and are forgetting it’s going to go away. That they are putting a sour taste in their repeat customers and we will choose another option. It’s a big freaking world, lots to see.
Legacy is also like Alumni - we are their free word of mouth advertising. We bring our kids and grand kids and make them new fans and customers. But why visit the countries in Epcot when I can take them to the real place? If I want thrill rides, Cedar Point kills it for a fraction of the price. If I want luxury- we all know Disney fails in comparison to real luxury resorts. We come for the Magic - yes we freaking know it’s an illusion, but it’s a pleasing one we choose. If they are going to make us feel unvalued and open up the curtains removing that illusion - I have other things to spend 10k+ a year on.

I'm glad there is more and more people beginning to recognize the "new" Disney isn't the nostalgic loveable "value" I used to see it for. I used to see it as an all inclusive trip I paid a lot for--but what a bang for my buck with my three children to travel together and truly there was something for everyone. Oh we have spent a small fortune there over the past 12 years. We've stayed deluxe the vast majority, dined on the most expensive restaurants (where we considered this a once a year treat we saved all year for but our kids got to to experience French, Japanese food, etc. and other worldly cultures for a fraction of the cost it would take us to travel to those countries, etc.), we've cruised only Disney, right before COVID as the kids were growing into teens and getting a little tired of the parks we were looking into other adventures with Disney...and last summer we took our first trip back post-covid. We checked out early and I sent a long email to Disney just displaying my absolute shock (I could go on and on--but trash around the deluxe pool, dirty room, etc.). They actually ended up comping us a couple of nights in a deluxe resort of our choice and 6 park hoppers to be used in the next several years...and my faith was somewhat reinstated that Disney customer service had not declined and it was worth it....but even as we would look to rebook and use those credits, we simply can't quite get on board with all the new changes. After all, it will now cost $15 per day per person (for a family this adds up!) for fast passes, the parking, the food, no more magic express...etc. etc. so we kept pushing it off and finding other vacations instead.

We've now been to Las Vegas (and there are TONS of things to do there with kids!) twice, cruised a non-Disney cruise for a fraction of the cost of Disney, and are exploring the big road trip out west for National Parks and international travel--and finding that we actually enjoy and find just as much magic doing these vacations as we did doing the Disney ones. We had just totally put everything into Disney and truly believed nothing else would give us this level of "magic".

Now here is the tough part fellow legacy friends...if we truly want Disney to learn, we need to put our money where our mouth is...and sadly, I think at least, boycott. That means not planning the next one (and I swear there is like an addiction to that, lol!) and truly just saying enough is enough. If you can get past this--I do promise you...there is so many other ways to spend your travel dollars for the $10K plus (per trip) we spent 1-2 times a year going to Disney. It is like going on a diet at first though---you grieve not going (when I grieve I come back on these boards and they help me remember its not the same Disney--clearly I popped up here again today and discovered this post)...until you go somewhere else and fall in love with that.

 

[scrappinginontario]

Another CDN who agrees with @samsteele that many international visitors are choosing to spend their $ elsewhere.

Pre-pandemic I would assist many family and friends with planning Disney trips. There are now only a handful of people I know who have visited since the border reopened almost a year ago and every one of those I know are legacy fans. I have not had a single first timer reach out and ask questions. Those people (at least my contacts) are travelling elsewhere (often within our own beautiful country) or, not in a position to make travel a high priority right now.

 

[toontoy]

all I have to say is we used to go for a week and stay deluxe and spent a bundle. after our spring trip this year we are taking a break. So many other options and they lost this legacy fan so their plan worked. When people ask me I tell them of all the other places they should go instead. we used to spend quite a bit each year and have cruised with Disney and had lots of disney trips. Now we are having a break, for my sanity, my wallet and to explore the world outside of disney's. so far our trip at the end of summer to Sanibel was far superior, less stressful, a fraction of the price.

 

[MomOTwins]

And some shareholders are actually legacy guests.

You know, I can't help but wonder if you are on to something there that even the Disney execs don't see. Disney stockk prices are pretty poor right now, even though every analyst under the sun is rating them a buy. Disney execs keep trying to appeal to shareholders by talking about how they are milking every last dime from guests. But maybe the reason Disney stock is underperforming so much is that legacy guests like us are selling down our stock. I actually have a meeting with my broker next week and I plan to decrease my holdings of Disney stock. Customer goodwill and loyalty is part of the stock value, and someone at Disney needs to remember that quick.