Fantasmic! at Disneyland

[cmwade77]

I disagree with that, they must provide ways for guests with disabilities to have safe place to watch and that includes protecting service animals at no additional cost over what everyone else pays. Sorry, but this is not an unreasonable expectation when it has been proven to be possible in the past.

Sorry, but ADA does specifically state that accommodations cannot cost extra, so saying buying a package is not an acceptable solution.

Now it would be different if there was no possible way to provide accommodations, but I demonstrated at the very beginning of the thread that it is possible and it is only policy changes (that were bad for guests, bad for crowd control, the CMs that work it hate it, but were told to make it work and only good for Disney's pocketbooks because it allowed them to sell dining packages) that took away such accommodations.

 

[gap2368]

what exactly do you wan Disney to do fro you allow you to sit in the wheel chair area with out a wheel chair but isn't there someone in you group that can not stand fro a long time would they need a week chair and this would allow you to sit in the wheel chair area.

or do you want Disney to have a whole area for your group, where no other guest go?

 

[wilkeliza]

I disagree with that, they must provide ways for guests with disabilities to have safe place to watch and that includes protecting service animals at no additional cost over what everyone else pays. Sorry, but this is not an unreasonable expectation when it has been proven to be possible in the past.

Sorry, but ADA does specifically state that accommodations cannot cost extra, so saying buying a package is not an acceptable solution.

Now it would be different if there was no possible way to provide accommodations, but I demonstrated at the very beginning of the thread that it is possible and it is only policy changes (that were bad for guests, bad for crowd control, the CMs that work it hate it, but were told to make it work and only good for Disney's pocketbooks because it allowed them to sell dining packages) that took away such accommodations.

The ADA does not say they are responsible for the safety of your service dog. You are allowed to enter the viewing area just like everyone else with the service dog. Nobody is stopping you. You can even alter those around you to the service animal or put the service animal between the person needing it and another party member so it is protected. If traveling alone you could show up early to ensure you get your pick of spots and choose to be near an emergency exit area where there would be space for the service animal or up against the railing so again you can put the service animal in front of you so it is safe.

What you are asking for is not an accommodation it is extra. You want guaranteed space and they just can not do that in any feasible way even in the disability viewing areas.

 

[cmwade77]

what exactly do you wan Disney to do fro you allow you to sit in the wheel chair area with out a wheel chair but isn't there someone in you group that can not stand fro a long time would they need a week chair and this would allow you to sit in the wheel chair area.

or do you want Disney to have a whole area for your group, where no other guest go?

I want Disney to provide appropriate accommodations, which means an area (doesn't have to be large, but could be or could be several smaller areas like at World of Color) that is:

• Less crowded - I am not saying it needs to be empty, but is it not reasonable to ask that people not be standing on top of each other? I would say that the disabled area should be capped at about 60% of what a similar sized area would be allowed, this would allow space for wheelchairs, etc.
• Is safe for service animals (Yes, ADA does require them to make policies that protect the safety of the service animal, oddly enough the law doesn't extend to the safety of the person with a disability, but technically there are other laws that require places be safe for people)
• Has a good view of the show

This is not extra, this is what was available before Fastpass without paying extra, I expected no less accommodation after Fastpass was introduced and yet they have failed to do this.

I am asking for nothing more than what is available for everyone else, a safe place to watch the show from with a good view, so again, this is not extra, this is asking for what everyone else has the ability to get.

Also, it is quite possible to provide these things, as World of Color does a very good job at doing this, although there was a point where they tried to put all of the disabled viewing areas in the back in order to reduce the number of cast members needed to work the show.

I mentioned it on here and many did say that didn't violate ADA law for various reasons.

The gist is that there were revisions to the rulings about ADA that required theaters (including outdoor theaters) to provide disabled viewing areas with views equal to or greater than what others can get. Many on here thought that law wouldn't apply as the area was originally built prior to the ruling; however, the area had a massive remodel after the ruling went into effect, which meant that the ruling did apply. It also applied because the areas that met the requirements of the ruling had already been established prior to the ruling going into effect, which demonstrated it was possible.

I proved to Disney that the views were not anywhere close to equal or better, especially for someone sitting at wheelchair height. They reviewed the changes with their lawyers and all came to the conclusion that they did indeed violate ADA law by moving the viewing areas. And that the ruling did apply because the viewing areas were already established, proving that it was possible and that only policy changes removed the appropriate accommodations.

And that is the same basic premise here is the accommodations used to be available, proving that it is possible except for some policy changes.

 

[lanejudy]

This is not extra, this is what was available before Fastpass without paying extra, I expected no less accommodation after Fastpass was introduced and yet they have failed to do this.

Was this "an accommodation" that DLR provided for you previously? Or was it just that you (and anyone else) were allowed to access this area early and lay out a tarp? I don't believe an accommodation has been taken away -- it sounds more like access to a specific location is now denied to everyone, with or without disabilities.

I understand your frustration. I really do. Something was previously allowed and now it is not. But it's been denied across the board. Accessed only for those with a FP or those paying. It has nothing to do with disabilities or taking away an accommodation.

I don't believe the ADA requires a venue to create a "less crowded" viewing area, especially with prime views added in, not even for a service dog. Even the DAS does not guarantee a guest won't endure crowds during their wait for a ride. You as the dog's owner are tasked with determining whether you believe a situation is safe/appropriate for your dog. I suppose a small dog could be held, by the owner or another in the party, creating a safer environment. A large dog could be placed between you and other members of your party, creating buffer space and preventing others from inadvertently stepping on the dog. Arriving early and placing yourselves against a railing or wall might offer some protection. Those are all options available to you and your dog. Maybe not ideal, but options.

You've mentioned quick exit, but that's not necessarily something that must be provided either. The options I see are to be in a less crowded area and subsequently have relatively easy exit, but it may not be the best viewing spot; or you can be in a prime viewing spot, but expect it to be crowded which also likely means more difficult exit out of the crowd.

My experiences at WDW have always been that a mobility device is required to access to roped off "handicapped" seating/viewing areas. And they further restrict how many companions may be with you in that area. People on ECVs or wheelchairs are parked close together, almost elbow to elbow, with companions either sitting in front or standing behind - not beside you. If you experienced a "roomier" situation, chalk it up to a low-crowd day and not that the space was guaranteed.

You are certainly within your rights to write to Disney and explain your situation. But I'd be surprised to find spacious areas reserved for 60% capacity. Disney is a crowded, popular destination. You and your service dog are allowed to enter the gates, ride the rides, watch the shows, eat at the restaurants. However, it's up to you to determine whether any of those situations "work" for your needs. Preferred accommodations are not legislated, equal access is required by the ADA. Unfortunately there is no way to guarantee for equal experiences.

I hope you do find a way to enjoy future visits to DLR!

 

[gap2368]

I think what you want is really out of the question ( sorry to tell you) I am in the same boat with Happily ever after over at Disney world. I can no longer watch it from MS USA it is just out of the question, Yes there have been some nice CM that have allowed me to stand some where less crowded but this dose not happen often, so now I take one day a year ( most of the time around my Bday) and I do the dessert party where I know I will have a space away from the crowds to see them, yes it sucks that people with out a disability can show up a few minutes early and squeeze in and see it if I did that then the CM would be call 911 for me ( it has happened more times then I care to say) and yes I have gone to GR and talked to them, but I just do not see anything happing. as other have said some times Disney can not accommodate you the way you would like and it is up to use to make our own, you have been give some suggestion like have the people in your group make a buffer around the service dog, is it is small enough carry it, I have seen a few with glow sticks so they stand out more at night. but this will have to be something you do Disney is not going to do anything that you will feel is good.

 

[SMD]

Disney can and does fill all viewing areas, including ADA viewing areas to capacity. If you feel this violates the law, your remedies are legal. The RBT seating area has a lower capacity. If you are aware of any other lower capacity areas, I'd suggest obtaining an FP for one of those areas.

 

[cmwade77]

I think this thread is getting way off topic about what is and isn't required, some of that is my fault as I responded to it, but let's fix that. And saying that asking for accommodations for any particular disability isn't reasonable is starting to head towards an attack, what I don't want to see is this ending up there and having the thread closed before people can come up with legitimate solutions, so let's all avoid saying that and go forward with the following in mind:

I asked for legitimate solutions that would accommodate based on specific needs that Disney could provide under the current system without having to pay extra for a package.

Going forward, let us all assume that it is indeed reasonable to ask for accommodations based on these needs:

• A service dog with a party as small as one
  • The dog should be protected from:
    • Being Kicked
    • Being Stepped On
    • People intentionally trying to harm the service animal (as best as can be done, at bare minimum being able to have security remove someone intentionally trying to harm the service animal and yes, I have seen this happen and security do nothing to the people trying to harm the service animal. Not to our party luckily, but I have seen it)
• When the party is larger most of the time at least two or more people in the party have crowd issues.
  • Doesn't have to be super spacious, but at least enough room where people aren't constantly bumping into you and you have enough room to physically turn around without hitting someone.
  • Needs the ability to get to an exit easily

Again, let us move forward discussing legitimate solutions that allow for these needs within the current rules that do not involve buying a dinner package and let us remember that you cannot ask for specific sections when getting a FP for the show.

 

[wilkeliza]

I think this thread is getting way off topic about what is and isn't required, some of that is my fault as I responded to it, but let's fix that. And saying that asking for accommodations for any particular disability isn't reasonable is starting to head towards an attack, what I don't want to see is this ending up there and having the thread closed before people can come up with legitimate solutions, so let's all avoid saying that and go forward with the following in mind:

I asked for legitimate solutions that would accommodate based on specific needs that Disney could provide under the current system without having to pay extra for a package.

Going forward, let us all assume that it is indeed reasonable to ask for accommodations based on these needs:

• A service dog with a party as small as one
  • The dog should be protected from:
    • Being Kicked
    • Being Stepped On
    • People intentionally trying to harm the service animal (as best as can be done, at bare minimum being able to have security remove someone intentionally trying to harm the service animal and yes, I have seen this happen and security do nothing to the people trying to harm the service animal. Not to our party luckily, but I have seen it)
• When the party is larger most of the time at least two or more people in the party have crowd issues.
  • Doesn't have to be super spacious, but at least enough room where people aren't constantly bumping into you and you have enough room to physically turn around without hitting someone.
  • Needs the ability to get to an exit easily

Again, let us move forward discussing legitimate solutions that allow for these needs within the current rules that do not involve buying a dinner package and let us remember that you cannot ask for specific sections when getting a FP for the show.

For both of your asks there just isn't a legitimate was to accommodate them. How can Disney protect a service dog from being stepped on or kicked or being intentionally harmed? They can't possibly control all guests. I imagine if you just politely said hey just be mindful of the service dog people will be and it won't be an issue.

Point two they just can't guarantee that much. I would love based on my PTSD and anxiety to not have people touch me. Even people I know touching me can cause me great anxiety (not all the time it is based on what my current state) is but it is something I deal with if I want to experience the fireworks on Main Street or Fantasmic or to many people's surprise even waiting in line with out a DAS. If I'm in a mind space where I can't take the possibility of it happening then I just ax my nightly plans. Yeah it stinks but I also know it isn't right of me to demand that Disney provide a space where I won't be touched. They just can't do that in good faith because at the end of the day they can't control other guests and certainly can't be expected to rope off a little section for me and then another little section for your group and another little section for the next group that has someone that is similar. While also guarantee us good views. It just isn't physically or logistically possible.

 

[charmed59]

Sorry, but ADA does specifically state that accommodations cannot cost extra, so saying buying a package is not an acceptable solution.

If this is true why does Disney not grant DAS to people who can't stand for long periods of time? Their solution is to rent a wheelchair. That would cost extra.

 

[cmwade77]

For both of your asks there just isn't a legitimate was to accommodate them. How can Disney protect a service dog from being stepped on or kicked or being intentionally harmed? They can't possibly control all guests. I imagine if you just politely said hey just be mindful of the service dog people will be and it won't be an issue.

Point two they just can't guarantee that much. I would love based on my PTSD and anxiety to not have people touch me. Even people I know touching me can cause me great anxiety (not all the time it is based on what my current state) is but it is something I deal with if I want to experience the fireworks on Main Street or Fantasmic or to many people's surprise even waiting in line with out a DAS. If I'm in a mind space where I can't take the possibility of it happening then I just ax my nightly plans. Yeah it stinks but I also know it isn't right of me to demand that Disney provide a space where I won't be touched. They just can't do that in good faith because at the end of the day they can't control other guests and certainly can't be expected to rope off a little section for me and then another little section for your group and another little section for the next group that has someone that is similar. While also guarantee us good views. It just isn't physically or logistically possible.

I am not saying can't be touched at all, I am saying not constantly being bumped into and shoved, which is what happens in the FP section.

 

[Gracie09]

I think this thread is getting way off topic about what is and isn't required, some of that is my fault as I responded to it, but let's fix that. And saying that asking for accommodations for any particular disability isn't reasonable is starting to head towards an attack, what I don't want to see is this ending up there and having the thread closed before people can come up with legitimate solutions, so let's all avoid saying that and go forward with the following in mind:

I asked for legitimate solutions that would accommodate based on specific needs that Disney could provide under the current system without having to pay extra for a package.

Going forward, let us all assume that it is indeed reasonable to ask for accommodations based on these needs:

• A service dog with a party as small as one
  • The dog should be protected from:
    • Being Kicked
    • Being Stepped On
    • People intentionally trying to harm the service animal (as best as can be done, at bare minimum being able to have security remove someone intentionally trying to harm the service animal and yes, I have seen this happen and security do nothing to the people trying to harm the service animal. Not to our party luckily, but I have seen it)
• When the party is larger most of the time at least two or more people in the party have crowd issues.
  • Doesn't have to be super spacious, but at least enough room where people aren't constantly bumping into you and you have enough room to physically turn around without hitting someone.
  • Needs the ability to get to an exit easily

Again, let us move forward discussing legitimate solutions that allow for these needs within the current rules that do not involve buying a dinner package and let us remember that you cannot ask for specific sections when getting a FP for the show.

The ADA does not require equal accommodation. It requires reasonable accommodation. If it was equal, there could not be a DAS system as it is technically unequal although reasonable.
The safety of your service dog is your responsibility, not that of Disney
https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

You could try to get a fastpass for the show. That seems to provide you a place to sit.

 

[wilkeliza]

I am not saying can't be touched at all, I am saying not constantly being bumped into and shoved, which is what happens in the FP section.

What's the difference between the two? I was at Fantasmic on the 2nd preview night and can tell you that I was only bumped one time and the person profusely apologize. If you are really being bumped and shoved that much then perhaps it is the people around you and not necessarily Disney. Again they can't control other guest's behavior.

 

[Gracie09]

If this is true why does Disney not grant DAS to people who can't stand for long periods of time? Their solution is to rent a wheelchair. That would cost extra.

They don't require people to rent a wheelchair. People can bring any wheelchair that meets ada standards (size limitations). They can borrow one, rent from an outside vendor etc.They have provided wheelchair accessibility to most of their rides.

 

[gap2368]

I think the best thing for you is to get a wheel chair so this way you will have the extra space you need and maybe FP too

 

[cmwade77]

If this is true why does Disney not grant DAS to people who can't stand for long periods of time? Their solution is to rent a wheelchair. That would cost extra.

Because they are violating ADA law by doing so.

And yes that one is a violation (I only recently discovered that part of it when I was looking up something else for work, but it has to be no extra cost), but as it doesn't affect me, I would have no legal standing to file a lawsuit over it.

 

[wilkeliza]

The ADA does not require equal accommodation. It requires reasonable accommodation. If it was equal, there could not be a DAS system as it is technically unequal although reasonable.
The safety of your service dog is your responsibility, not that of Disney
https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

You could try to get a fastpass for the show. That seems to provide you a place to sit.

Many of the DAS lawsuits are being lost because they are being deemed more than. I believe the judge has basically ruled that since all lines are accessible Disney doesn't actually have to provide somewhere outside of line and the fact you can be outside of line doing other things means they exceed the ADA requirement of reasonable accommodation.

 

[wilkeliza]

Because they are violating ADA law by doing so.

And yes that one is a violation (I only recently discovered that part of it when I was looking up something else for work, but it has to be no extra cost), but as it doesn't affect me, I would have no legal standing to file a lawsuit over it.

You really don't have a full understanding of the ADA. A business is not required to offer you a place to sit if you disability requires as such. It just is required to allow you to use your mobility device (as long as it is safe for all patrons). So no Disney does not have to pay for your wheelchair they just can't deny you access if you have one.

 

[cmwade77]

It is obvious that people can't have a rational discussion without resorting to you don't understand ADA, which I do understand better than many people, so I am going to ask the moderators to please close this thread, obviously it was a mistake to think that this could end up with some useful suggestions.

 

[OurBigTrip]

It is obvious that people can't have a rational discussion without resorting to you don't understand ADA, which I do understand better than many people, so I am going to ask the moderators to please close this thread, obviously it was a mistake to think that this could end up with some useful suggestions.

Unfortunately, this isn't the first time you've come to this forum complaining not only about Disney refusing your questionably reasonable requests, but also disseminating incorrect info about the ADA and what Disney executives have told you about disability policies.

So, it's only natural that people are questioning you.

Also, FYI, Disney doesn't force anyone to rent a wheelchair, so no ADA violation.