I miss the Maelstrom ride so much.

Good point about DVC. I think it's extremely important to Disney, to the point where a lot of the controversial moves in the theme parks (closed and neglected rides, haphazard theming, etc.) occur because they're so focused on what is essentially flipping condos. The whole condo scheme AFAICT is built on practically free money that they can borrow from Wall St (thanks to QE1,2,3,4,5...) and then lend to their customers. Any risk is offset by hedging the portfolio of DVC loans (buying insurance) and/or by knowing that they can always repossess any defaulted timeshare and sell it again, or at worst rent it out as a hotel room. While at the same time collecting ca$h condo fees but without providing much of anything in the way of housekeeping, concierge, etc. That I think is the main reason why everything else that happens at the resort seems like an afterthought, including the Maelstrom/Frozen thing. Think of it this way ... the quickest and easiest move was to send the Norway pavilion to the Bibbity Boutique for a princess makeover. Voila. Now about those Polynesian condos ...

The poor saps at Universal, SeaWorld and Busch Gardens don't have condo scams going so they have to make money by outlaying capital, building stuff that they think the public will like and pay cash for, and then waiting to see if it works. They have to make money the hard way, with shovels, but Disney makes money by getting people to sign IOUs.
 
The poor saps at Universal, SeaWorld and Busch Gardens don't have to make money by outlaying capital, building stuff that they think the public will like and pay cash for, and then waiting to see if it works. They have to make money the hard way, with shovels, but Disney makes money by getting people to sign IOUs.

And they (Universal) were rewarded significantly with a 14% uptick in attendance for taking the high road by actually delivering a brand-new quality, immersive experience. No doubt, Frozen will net an increase, too. My contention is that the uptick would be far greater if they opened up the purse strings and allowed the Imagineers to actually do their job rather than simply giving the old 1988 Ford Taurus a new coat of paint. Disney has become far to reliant on their name alone bringing people into the gates. At some point, the lack of new, quality experiences is going to come back and bite them.
 
Do adults really buy DVC at Disney so they can ride kiddie rides? Or are they lured by attractions such as World Showcase, a few thrilling things and yes even those kiddie rides? If you turn WS into another Fantasyland won't those adults perhaps be less enamored?

Lots of questions - just mulling this over. :)
 
The big draws for me are as follows:
  1. The feeling of leaving "the real world" behind. Once I get on that plane bound for MCO, I don't really have a care in the world. The magical Mears shuttle whisks me and my bags away and I can truly leave it all behind. Regardless of the deterioration in the parks, this is something that hasn't changed, and Disney is still a very unique destination in this regard.
  2. The resorts. While the DVC room accommodations are nice, they're really aren't anything that special. I'm talking about the theming (especially WL & Poly). Upon entering the doors of these resorts, I truly feel as if I have been taken away to the Pacific Northwest or the South Pacific islands and find myself immersed in the theme. This helps with the feeling mentioned above in #1.
  3. World Showcase. With the destruction of Pleasure Island, this really became the only go-to spot for adult-oriented Disney activity.

Even if #3. turns to crap over time, I'll still continue to go. I simply won't spend nearly as much time in the parks and will most likely dial the frequency of trips back. We used to be park warriors, hopping from park to park and closing them down until 1:00 or 2:00 am each and every night. We're starting to dial things back and take in more time at the resorts. DTD used to be a big draw for us, but as it continues it's suburban mall-like transformation, interest there is going by the wayside. On my upcoming trip, I also plan on trying out one of the golf courses for the first time ever.
 


The big draws for me are as follows:
  1. The feeling of leaving "the real world" behind. Once I get on that plane bound for MCO, I don't really have a care in the world. The magical Mears shuttle whisks me and my bags away and I can truly leave it all behind. Regardless of the deterioration in the parks, this is something that hasn't changed, and Disney is still a very unique destination in this regard.
  2. The resorts. While the DVC room accommodations are nice, they're really aren't anything that special. I'm talking about the theming (especially WL & Poly). Upon entering the doors of these resorts, I truly feel as if I have been taken away to the Pacific Northwest or the South Pacific islands and find myself immersed in the theme. This helps with the feeling mentioned above in #1.
  3. World Showcase. With the destruction of Pleasure Island, this really became the only go-to spot for adult-oriented Disney activity.

Even if #3. turns to crap over time, I'll still continue to go. I simply won't spend nearly as much time in the parks and will most likely dial the frequency of trips back. We used to be park warriors, hopping from park to park and closing them down until 1:00 or 2:00 am each and every night. We're starting to dial things back and take in more time at the resorts. DTD used to be a big draw for us, but as it continues it's suburban mall-like transformation, interest there is going by the wayside. On my upcoming trip, I also plan on trying out one of the golf courses for the first time ever.
1. I used to feel just like this. I see WDW becoming more and more like the real world and actually in some ways worse. I only say that as a huge fan of some real world places.
2. I also used to feel like this and still do to some extent. I LOVE AKL and PO. I used to love the Poly too but it has taken some hits and to me it's not the same.
3. I always liked this area and actually still do. I can't get past the destruction of a part of it that means a lot to me though. I'm trying but I'm not having much success.

I can only add that we like mini-golf at WDW and we like it a lot. Fantasia Gardens is kind of lame but Summer Winterland is a hoot. During our last trip we went to MK and AK and Epcot one evening (which I was talked into). We also checked out Downtown Disney and I wasn't impressed (yet) and of course our mini-golf. :)
 
Typically rides are demolished for a reason. While it may be cool for a while rides are supposed to evolve with time not stay the same the parks are not museums as the Marty Sklar once said. With that said I would have loved to ride horizons once to see what it was like.
I know but it would still be really cool. :)
 
While I do agree that the parks "aren't museums" and must evolve, I have the following commentary to add to that sentiment:
  • I have no problem with the death and destruction of a failing attraction(s).
  • I do have an issue with the death and destruction of an attraction(s) that is widely accepted as being popular (whether I happen to like that attraction or not).
  • I have an even bigger issue when the replacement of said attraction(s) happens to be one of the following:
    • 1.) A "made-in-China" gift shop
    • 2.) Character M&G space
    • 3.) Bippity Boppity Boops
  • I get furious when the replacement could easily have been placed somewhere else (I become dumbfounded when it *should* have been placed somewhere else).

I don't need to be told that WDW is in business to "make money". That's a pretty basic concept and I get that. My contention is that in the long-term, building quality attractions that people truly want to "come back for" will pay bigger dividends than the short-sighted, quick hit strategy that is currently in place to extract every last cent out of us. At some point, the "magic" wears off when you realize that ticket prices have doubled (100% increase) over the past decade, and all that we have to show for it is a lame Omnimover and 90 second kiddie coaster in MK, and a re-vamp of a 30-year old boat ride "coming soon" to EPCOT. Single-day ticket prices in 2004 were $52/ea. Today, they're $105/ea. Taking into account inflation alone since 2004, today's ticket prices should be somewhere around $66/ea. Is NFL, accompanied by Bippity Boppity and Magic Bracelets, really worth paying 75% more than you paid in 2004??? I think that's a pretty tough pill for anyone to swallow when looking at it from this perspective.

I'm a hypocrite, as I continue to reward the suits for cheapening the product and taking more of my money. I do so only because I find enjoyment in other things outside of the parks as mentioned above. For those that think "Disney can't fail", do you really think this behavior can continue indefinitely before it bites them? Also, ask yourself "what's the incentive for Disney to give Star Wars land their "A-game"? History has proven that if they work up their marketing machine, drag out the project for years and increase ticket prices all along the way, they will be met with success regardless of the effort that they put into the project. Food for thought.

:drinking:
 


I'll probably catch some fire for the following but whatever.... I've read pages 1-5 and 9 and couldn't read any more. So much negativity in this thread about slippery slopes and downhill progression from Disney.... I guess you can say I have my " head in the sand" and still have that " magic " but to me if you don't like what Disney currently has and not happy with what's coming... My question is why are you still a fan of Disney ? Go put your time in something you like. Take another 15 year hiatus. I just don't get the negativity and it's everywhere on these forums... Rant over. Now let me here how I'm wrong....
 
I'll probably catch some fire for the following but whatever.... I've read pages 1-5 and 9 and couldn't read any more. So much negativity in this thread about slippery slopes and downhill progression from Disney.... I guess you can say I have my " head in the sand" and still have that " magic " but to me if you don't like what Disney currently has and not happy with what's coming... My question is why are you still a fan of Disney ? Go put your time in something you like. Take another 15 year hiatus. I just don't get the negativity and it's everywhere on these forums... Rant over. Now let me here how I'm wrong....
I don't think that you're wrong because what you said is true for you. However if I had a nickel for every Disney fan who said to just quit going....
 
It's not all negative. They're still great parks and there are still many reasons to visit WDW. But Disney is clearly in a slump right now with respect to maintaining a sufficient number of fresh, exciting and imaginative attractions in 3 of the parks. Whether the Frozen ride is a step backwards is debatable, but many other parts of Epcot and DHS are far more neglected and the downward trend is being duly noted.

It may be unhelpful for us Disney fans to moan and commiserate about it as far as you're concerned ... but we kind of enjoy it. And darn it, we're the customers.
 
I'll probably catch some fire for the following but whatever.... I've read pages 1-5 and 9 and couldn't read any more. So much negativity in this thread about slippery slopes and downhill progression from Disney.... I guess you can say I have my " head in the sand" and still have that " magic " but to me if you don't like what Disney currently has and not happy with what's coming... My question is why are you still a fan of Disney ? Go put your time in something you like. Take another 15 year hiatus. I just don't get the negativity and it's everywhere on these forums... Rant over. Now let me here how I'm wrong....
I still like many things Disney does but there are also many things I don't like or I think Disney could do better and that basically what these boards are for our opinions. Disney isn't going to please every single person with what they do. Disney is also much different than the days of Walt and Roy. But world showcase has also be representative of countries around the world. Arrendale is not real that's what upsets so many. I like frozen it was a good movie but it deserves a good dark ride in fantasyland not world showcase.
 
Do adults really buy DVC at Disney so they can ride kiddie rides? Or are they lured by attractions such as World Showcase, a few thrilling things and yes even those kiddie rides? If you turn WS into another Fantasyland won't those adults perhaps be less enamored?

Lots of questions - just mulling this over. :)

I think the single biggest reason is ego... Feeling like you "own the D"

That's the bottomline in a post trickle down (one hopes) economic society...

I call it the "robin leach effect"

For me...it was almost an insurance policy against Disney.

I like staying on property (it's mindless...or used to be before up to the second preplanning)...and the moderates are such a ripoff. The values are getting there...

But the "comfort price" of the deluxes passed zero barrier long ago...some are nearly double what the were 2000. That is hyper inflation.

So I bought the timeshare
To hedge the bet...like the shenanigan bad economics during the housing crash...to preserve "something" that could be kept manageable. It had worked for that...

But the downside is all the other pricing becomes much more apparent...which means I don't believe in Disney's desire to provide "nothing but 100% pure magic to warm children's hearts"...I suppose...
 
I'll probably catch some fire for the following but whatever....

You won't catch "fire" from me. Just a few clarifications.

I've read pages 1-5 and 9 and couldn't read any more. So much negativity in this thread about slippery slopes and downhill progression from Disney.... I guess you can say I have my " head in the sand" and still have that " magic " but to me if you don't like what Disney currently has and not happy with what's coming... My question is why are you still a fan of Disney? Go put your time in something you like.

I am married, work 60+ hours per week, have a house and yard to take care of and every once and a blue moon ... a little slice of a social life. I wouldn't have dedicated the past 15 years and well over a thousand posts to this forum in my spare time if I didn't "like" Disney. Having said that, what I don't "like" is the direction that the parks have taken over the past decade. This dislike isn't because I had a bad experience with an attraction or a CM, and as a result of sour grapes, I now have it "in" for WDW. Rather, I've been visiting WDW since wearing diapers in the 80's and have made well over 20 trips since. I've seen WDW at its zenith and it was spectacular. What I see today is not the same place. While still a very special, unique place to visit that has no equal, it's not the same park as it was in its heyday. I've already mentioned many of these examples earlier on in this post, but maybe this helps to tie it all together:
  • Are you happier now with the “made in China” carbon-copy gift shops found all over property? I, for one, preferred the more unique gift shops that could be found throughout WDW in years past. This trend is only getting worse with the suburban-mall style takeover of Disney Springs. I really don’t need to visit a Sunglass Hut or an Apple Store while on vacation at Disney. I can do that anytime I want at home. Providing a unique shopping experience to guests has taken a back seat to corporate licensing and franchise deals (like the above-mentioned examples coming to Disney Springs).
  • Are we better off now with Future World sitting half-empty with only two “real” attractions, with the last bit of investment having been made over a decade ago with the addition of Soarin’ in 2005? For me, that's a big "NO".
  • Are you really happy that Frozen – the highest grossing animated film in history - is getting a shoe-horn makeover of a 25 year old boat ride, rather than an all-new, truly innovative experience? IMHO, Frozen deserves better than this and so does the World Showcase.
  • Do you really enjoy paying ~100% more for the exact same hotel amenities as you did back in ~2000? This is a little bit more than keeping up with inflation (it’s about 4 times as much). When you really study this particular bullet point, it really becomes clear that this is calculated greed. In a nutshell, the end game is to make DVC an attractive option as compared to paying $500/night for a room on the Monorail loop. TWDC has moved “all-in” on DVC, and as a result, it’s become cost-prohibitive for many families to stay in accommodations that they previously enjoyed in year’s past.
  • Park tickets aren’t any better. They’ve also gone up 100% in the past decade from $52/ea to $105/ea for single-day admission (~75% when you remove inflation). Generally speaking, when justifying such a price increase, most consumers expect to receive something substantial for their money. To date, we’ve received a plethora of made-in-China gift shops, Magic Bands, and the addition of New Fantasland, of which the additions found within I’ve pretty well covered in my last post. Oh – and not to forget the “promise” of Frozen, Avatarland and Star Wars – coming to a park near you sometime in the next decade.
If you are a newcomer to Disney or you simply don’t visit that often, I wouldn’t expect that you would share the same perspective. Perhaps on the surface, it appears as if we’re just complaining to hear ourselves talk or because we “hate” Disney. It couldn’t be further from the truth. I love where WDW came from and what it represented in years past, but unfortunately, the Disney of today is on a completely different path driven solely by Wall Street. I guess it would be easier to just shut up and “live with it”, but it’s difficult seeing something that you love turn to crap. There are many folks within this specific sub-forum that share similar sentiments, and the main reason that I continue to contribute is because these folks see WDW from a much different perspective than the mainstream, and when you actually sit down and investigate or ponder the "negative perspective", light bulbs start to go off as you tie it all together. As I outlined above a page or two back, there are still plenty of things at WDW that I still enjoy, which is why I continue to go despite the “erosion” that continues to take place.
 
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I don't think that you're wrong because what you said is true for you. However if I had a nickel for every Disney fan who said to just quit going....
The thing is, none really quit going. Like the folks who claim that they are going to move to another country if XXX is elected. Yeah - never happens. Why? Because, be it ever so humble, there is no place like home...
 
If you are a newcomer to Disney or you simply don’t visit that often, I wouldn’t expect that you would share the same perspective

I do agree with what you have said. I'm am not a new comer and I frequently visit multiple times a month. There are things that I do not agree with, like taking out captain EO for movie premiers. As far as frozen going to Norway that does not bother me, nor does characters popping up in the showcase.. I like the characters they don't change the tone of the pavilion for me. I do agree that frozen deserves a much bigger ride.

I guess it just might be the way I hold my mouth as I read the negativity that makes it not sit right with me...

As far as the 100% increase in hotel prices and tickets go, ya it sucks, don't want to pay for them... No.... But I will.... I've been a premium pass holder for 10 years staying at Disney hotels 5-10 times a year.
 
The thing is, none really quit going. Like the folks who claim that they are going to move to another country if XXX is elected. Yeah - never happens. Why? Because, be it ever so humble, there is no place like home...
People have quit going. Not many maybe but I know of a few. In my case, I'm guilty because I still go but I go way less. I never threatened to stop going though.
 
You won't catch "fire" from me. Just a few clarifications.



I am married, work 60+ hours per week, have a house and yard to take care of and every once and a blue moon ... a little slice of a social life. I wouldn't have dedicated the past 15 years and well over a thousand posts to this forum in my spare time if I didn't "like" Disney. Having said that, what I don't "like" is the direction that the parks have taken over the past decade. This dislike isn't because I had a bad experience with an attraction or a CM, and as a result of sour grapes, I now have it "in" for WDW. Rather, I've been visiting WDW since wearing diapers in the 80's and have made well over 20 trips since. I've seen WDW at its zenith and it was spectacular. What I see today is not the same place. While still a very special, unique place to visit that has no equal, it's not the same park as it was in its heyday. I've already mentioned many of these examples earlier on in this post, but maybe this helps to tie it all together:
  • Are you happier now with the “made in China” carbon-copy gift shops found all over property? I, for one, preferred the more unique gift shops that could be found throughout WDW in years past. This trend is only getting worse with the suburban-mall style takeover of Disney Springs. I really don’t need to visit a Sunglass Hut or an Apple Store while on vacation at Disney. I can do that anytime I want at home. Providing a unique shopping experience to guests has taken a back seat to corporate licensing and franchise deals (like the above-mentioned examples coming to Disney Springs).
  • Are we better off now with Future World sitting half-empty with only two “real” attractions, with the last bit of investment having been made over a decade ago with the addition of Soarin’ in 2005? For me, that's a big "NO".
  • Are you really happy that Frozen – the highest grossing animated film in history - is getting a shoe-horn makeover of a 25 year old boat ride, rather than an all-new, truly innovative experience? IMHO, Frozen deserves better than this and so does the World Showcase.
  • Do you really enjoy paying ~100% more for the exact same hotel amenities as you did back in ~2000? This is a little bit more than keeping up with inflation (it’s about 4 times as much). When you really study this particular bullet point, it really becomes clear that this is calculated greed. In a nutshell, the end game is to make DVC an attractive option as compared to paying $500/night for a room on the Monorail loop. TWDC has moved “all-in” on DVC, and as a result, it’s become cost-prohibitive for many families to stay in accommodations that they previously enjoyed in year’s past.
  • Park tickets aren’t any better. They’ve also gone up 100% in the past decade from $52/ea to $105/ea for single-day admission (~75% when you remove inflation). Generally speaking, when justifying such a price increase, most consumers expect to receive something substantial for their money. To date, we’ve received a plethora of made-in-China gift shops, Magic Bands, and the addition of New Fantasland, of which the additions found within I’ve pretty well covered in my last post. Oh – and not to forget the “promise” of Frozen, Avatarland and Star Wars – coming to a park near you sometime in the next decade.
If you are a newcomer to Disney or you simply don’t visit that often, I wouldn’t expect that you would share the same perspective. Perhaps on the surface, it appears as if we’re just complaining to hear ourselves talk or because we “hate” Disney. It couldn’t be further from the truth. I love where WDW came from and what it represented in years past, but unfortunately, the Disney of today is on a completely different path driven solely by Wall Street. I guess it would be easier to just shut up and “live with it”, but it’s difficult seeing something that you love turn to crap. There are many folks within this specific sub-forum that share similar sentiments, and the main reason that I continue to contribute is because these folks see WDW from a much different perspective than the mainstream, and when you actually sit down and investigate or ponder the "negative perspective", light bulbs start to go off as you tie it all together. As I outlined above a page or two back, there are still plenty of things at WDW that I still enjoy, which is why I continue to go despite the “erosion” that continues to take place.

Nice patient eloquent post. Kudos.
 
People have quit going. Not many maybe but I know of a few. In my case, I'm guilty because I still go but I go way less. I never threatened to stop going though.
I don't really buy that this caused people who loved Disney to stop going. People go through different phases in their lives. Those who really love Disney will be back. Maybe not everyone, but those who do not return are so few as to be statistically irrelevant.
 
I don't really buy that this caused people who loved Disney to stop going. People go through different phases in their lives. Those who really love Disney will be back. Maybe not everyone, but those who do not return are so few as to be statistically irrelevant.
I can't pretend to know why people do things. I also won't ever take for granted that people can't walk away from something they once loved. People divorce and move to other nations, a themepark complex would seem less relevant.

You are probably right that the numbers are insignificant though. Now at least.
 
I personality disagree with Disney's choice to remove Maelstrom!! Frozen does not belong in the World Show Case!! If anything, it belongs in Hollywood Studios where there are more "cartoon"ie attractions. I've been going to Disney ever since i was two years old. My family always made appoint to ride Maelstrom, it was one of our favorite rides to do as a family. The last chance I got to ride it was in September 2014 right before they closed it for good. Very sad that they closed the ride and movie that truly belongs in the World Show Case.
 

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