Is it Eisner's Fault?

[KNWVIKING]

AHHHH, thanks Crook.... I'll learn nuances of this board in a few days.

 

[Another Voice]

Popcorn carts – yup.

I can only speak from experience about the ones at Disneyland, but they used to cost between fifteen and thirty grand each. Initially Walt wanted them to theme into the lands better. It was also quickly discovered that commercially available machinery didn’t work well in a Disney environment. Heavy volume and 300+ days of operation a year are murder on machines. There aren’t a lot of movie theaters or traveling carnivals that serve 12 million people a year. That’s the main market for “off-the-shelf” equipment and it simply doesn’t stand up in a Disney park.

Virtually every attempt to use store-bought equipment in Disney parks has been a disaster. One day I’ll write about the flaming churro carts that used provide a little extra show at Disneyland. Already in just a little over a year at California Adventure, the catalog-purchased ‘California Screaming’ and ‘Mulhuland Madness’ coasters are experiencing major structural and maintenance problems.

Present management has not only thrown out fifty years of design philosophy, but they’ve also dumped fifty years of practical operational experience. I keep saying there’s a tremendous amount of hard work that goes into designing and running the parks. Very little of it is obvious to the guests.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

From Sir Voice!

We’re arguing against it because it’s also part of a business failure.

YES!!!!!!!!

KNWVIKING, WELCOME!!

Now, I don’t mean to pick on you, and once you get used to my style you’ll find that I use quotes not against you, but rather as a starting point for a conversation. And I found your post… ah… well, let’s say exciting, because it asks the same questions (and brings out the same points) that we hash and re-hash here all the time, but in a refreshing way. So the next couple of quotes are for dialogue purposes only.

First time on this board. I have never seen a 10 page thread and it doesn't appear to be winding down.

As others have alluded: You ain’t seen nothin’ yet!!!!

There are some serious Mouse fans here.

The most serious, and the most cordial I’ve ever seen!!

I've been on Aladins Carpet ride. It wasn't great, but if it's THAT bad, then how bad is DUMBO.

I think you hit the nail on the head. “It wasn’t great.” I agree. But it was an extra (I mean they didn’t tear down an E-Ticket ride and this was the replacement), and as such I think it was OK. Barely. But you compare it with Dumbo. And here is where I get a little confused myself. On the one hand I always say that every ride doesn’t have to be an E-Ticket. We need some B-Tickets to fill things out. So in total isolation Aladdin is a huge positive. Right?

WRONG!!!! I feel we really need to step back and look at the big picture to judge it properly. And that question, in that context, is a 19-page thread in itself. Let’s just say that my personal opinion, in the “Big Picture’ context it is a failure. Not a huge failure, mind you, but a failure nonetheless.

Dumbo has the slowest line and gives riders four spins. But the kids love it. I also observed that kids loved the Aladin ride, and isn't that the point ?

NO!!!!!! That isn’t the point at all. Or we would be satisfied with a kiddy land park and not a Disneyland. Which was EXACTLY what Walt was trying to avoid way back in 1955!!

If every new ride was a Tower of Terror type, then they'd have to build a holding pen for the kids.

Again I agree!!!!! You need a couple of these, and a couple of Dumbos. But what we’re really looking for is that middle of the road ride. Not middle in terms of mediocrity. NO!! The ride has to absolutely captivating, thrilling (not necessarily with speed or drops) wonderful, sparks the imagination… In other words that all encompassing and ever elusive DISNEY ride (er, sorry) attraction!!!!

I think Dis veterans sometimes forget how many first timers visit WDW each year and the things that are ho-hum for us are great to them. We tend to be a little- maybe a lot- more critical about new additions.

I understand your point. And you’re right to a certain extent about our over/under critical out look because of our proximity to the question. But it doesn’t matter!! Just as a ride should not be judged on whether a kid likes it, it should not be judged on whether or not a veteran or novice likes it. It should be judged on the Disney Standards (that we all know, but sometimes bend to suit our particular argument ). And they (the powers that be) should hold those standards sacrosanct!!!

As for the new carny style games: Universal has had them for years. They are fun but you can spend a lot real quick.

WOAH!!! Am I to understand that just because Universal has carny games, that makes it OK for Disney?!!?!? Just where in your Disney philosophy do carnival games fit in? They don’t in mine at all. And if I read the bios and history right, they didn’t fit in with Walt’s either.
(Hmmm. I just re-read that paragraph and it doesn’t sound as tongue in cheek as I would like. In fact it could read as downright nasty!!! So I think I needs some There!! That’s better!!! Isn’t it!!)

Anyway, thanks for playing KNWVIKING. And post often!!! We need every opinion we can get!!

The shredding of documents. We've had scoop slamming Disney. And Baron slamming scoop for misslamming Disney.

Scoop! You bust me up!! I really did LaughOutLoud when I read this. Thanks!!!

CAPTAIN BRING BACK PETER!!! He's just as dense, but he's more fun!!! This is taking up too much already, so I'll have to stop and answers yours at a different time. I only want to say that on of the things that set Disneyland apart, in my little eighth grade brain, way back in 1968, were the garbage cans!!! Yep!! Garbage cans. There wasn't one that was even shaped as a garbage can. I was a little disappointed when WDW in 1971 and the cans were painted in theme, but were really metal and shaped in garbage can form. It's part of the philosophy. It's part of the standard!!

And lastly from Sir Voice again. Beautifully put!!

P.S. – Eisner is not the devil. Michael would never accept the cut in pay.

 

[Captain Crook]

Well, well, well...Voice it appears you may be owed an apology and perhaps some retractions as well. Don't misconstrue these few words as the apology, oh no...I can eat crow when I am wrong (it just doesn't happen very often - Unlike Baron who is the Rumors Board version of 'wrong way Willie')...

Landbaron...You like Peter better than me? Well, Peter hit 1,000 mark now it's time for the Captain to make his mark.

KNWVIKING, I see I shortened your handle too much in the late night posting, my apologies. Don't be influenced or awed by the 'quotemeister' ... He loves a Disney that never really existed and is lost in the dark - Or at least the Eighth Grade!!! (plus he's a Cub fan)...

 

[Bstanley]

I cannot escape this thread...

OK I was going to just enjoy the show, but the COTS discussion is one I just can't ignore...

COTS = Commercial Off The Shelf

AV - the argument that COTS equipment "simply doesn't stand up" is the same one that resulted in $800 hammers and $1000 toilet seats being bought by the Air Force because the specifications that they were designed to were, to put it mildly, -excessive-. Just because the engines of a C-130 need to be as close to perfection as possible doesn't mean that the toilet seats need to be.

Quality does NOT equal perfection (lasts forever, etc) - Quality means that it meets customer requirements. If a COTS Popcorn cart makes tasty popcorn, that's all that's needed, period. If you want to 'dress it up' to better fit in it's environment (ie - Theme it), that's kewl.

But if a Disney designed and built popcorn cart costs 10 times as much as a COTS popcorn cart but only lasts 5 times as long - it's a waste of money to buy the Disney cart instead of just replacing the COTS cart more often - Money that would be better spent on keeping more maintenance people on staff for example to replace light bulbs.

Already in just a little over a year at California Adventure, the catalog-purchased ‘California Screaming’ and ‘Mulhuland Madness’ coasters are experiencing major structural and maintenance problems.

Really?! Who 'provided' them - and are they still in business? DCA hasn't had that many people through it yet. If I were a prospective customer for a thrill ride and the guys who sold Disney those rides gave me a pitch - I'd laugh them out of the room...

P.S. – Eisner is not the devil. Michael would never accept the cut in pay.

Oh yeah, we're not trying to demonize anybody, we're just discussing their ability to make business decisions...sheesh

 

[All Aboard]

Look, an 11 page thread without a post from me. I guess I'm teetering on the edge of losing my "regular" status. Things have been quite heavy at the office, plus I (againts better judgement) took a three day weekend to WDW right in the middle of the madness. So, as a result, most of this thread happened in my absence.

Is it Eisner's fault? Yes and no. (Is that fair? I mean, Voice got to say that Lilo would do between $85 and $250, didn't he?)

Yes, under the buck stops here philosophy. One to which I adhere quite tightly. He's managed the bottom line at the expense of some Magic, no doubt. He's made some questionable and then some downright boneheaded aquisition and start-up decisions. Those have not only put pressure on the overall performance of the Company, but especially hit hard the things we love the most.

But, I also said no. I do believe that there has been enormous pressure to cost cut on Wall Street these past two years. That's what folks really seem to want to hear about right now. Slashing expenses and taking it to the bottom line. Unfortuneately, that takes a major toll on this type of business. Eisner doesn't have the clackers to say, screw the wisdom of the day - I'm moving forward. In turn, suffering some short term hurt and prevailing in the long term.

It's that type of vision and daring that Disney lacks right now. Eisner's never really had it and never will. I've said it many times, he's not the right guy to lead this company.

But then who is? We know that Disney can never be run with the same level of passion that it was when it was run by the guy who started it. First, we've not seen the likes of Walt since. And, second, without having built it from the ground up, nobody else can ever be as close to it as he was. But, I truly believe that there is the right combination of folks out there that could make it happen. Just who, I don't know. I want to see it happen soon, though. I'm more concerned now than ever.

 

[DisDuck]

Not to resusciate the dead but what about the Emu(I mean Turkey) carts. Are they themed properly or off-the-shelf?

Having been a long time going (since 1974), WDW has aged well and is better today than in its 'golden' years. Why I remember that in the evening unless MK was opened late there was nothing to do but stare at your hotel TV. I applauded the new Downtown.

Also, some people actual go to WDW because of their kids so liking Dumbo and/or Aladdin is important. Therefore, putting in (not replacing with) some A, B type rides is a positive step.

Captain, should we trade in for a newer Car#1 maybe with more room to hold our new poster?

 

[hopemax]

But, I wasn't there like Another Voice, Baron, Hopemax, BobO and others the day Disneyland first opened its gates. Heck, I wasn't even born when WDW first opened.

Where the heck did you get this... I'm the same age as YoHo. If its from popcorn carts, I'm talking about stuff that was in the park in the last 10 years.

So I couldn't find my pictures of the popcorn carts, but I know people, so here is a link to pictures of the Abominable Snowman, Dapper Dan, Haunted Mansion Ghost, and the Rocketeer.

link provided by one of the readers on Laughing Place.

 

[Another Voice]

Pop corn – Disneyland is a show. The rules are different. Yes, off-the-shelf is cheaper, but churning out tasty snacks is not their only purpose. The equipment is “on stage” in a very theatrical sense, not behind the counter where it only has to be utilitarian. Mechanical breakdowns aren't permissiable. That’s the real difference at Disney – it’s a show. You can’t judge it using the same criteria that you judge the concession stand at the multiplex. And believe me, the profit margin on Disneyland popcorn more than make up for the difference in cost. That’s part of showbiz too – people will pay for the show if you provide it.

And there is no apology needed Captain sir. There is no reason why a sane person has to know all this trivia. My only point is that to run a park – or any business – to the old Disney standards requires an attention to details in the most unlikely places. There is nothing that’s cut-and-dried, and there is certainly nothing that’s trivial.

Disney that never was – Yes, nostalgia can be fun. It lets you skip over all the unfortunate bits and concentrate on the good stuff. And yes, Walt’s Disney had some problems. Look back to the “Disney that never was”. A small park very literally out in the middle of no where; they had to rush to finish the freeway to it. Its founder spent his own personal money to complete the place. Goals were compromised, things didn’t work. Everything they did was made up as they went. There were fits and stops with the occasional bungle – from its very start people we predicting abject failure.

Now fast forward forty-six years to Mr. Scoop’s era. Another park is built in Anaheim but under very different circumstances. Instead of being in the middle of no where, this place is smack in the middle of the second largest urban area of the country – and right beside the single most well known tourist spot on the entire planet. Instead of selling vacation homes and borrowing money from a television network to finance the place, its builder OWNS that network and the stock is part of the Dow. It’s an age of instant communication; marketing prowess and easy travel that was science fiction in 1955. The new parks owners had the advantage of fifty years of theme park experience and the most recognized brand name on Earth. It was guaranteed to be a hit.

Yet Disneyland in 1955 drew roughly as many people as California Adventure did in 2001.

It makes you wonder if the guys back then knew something more than the guys do today.

 

[hopemax]

My only point is that to run a park – or any business – to the old Disney standards requires an attention to details in the most unlikely places. There is nothing that’s cut-and-dried, and there is certainly nothing that’s trivial

What comes to mind, is the Saturn commercials they were running last year, talking about dent resistant doors and other "trivial" things there cars have that others don't talk about. The tag line was something like "So what does it mean that our engineers worry about this stuff? It means we already took care of all the important stuff."

 

[Bob O]

Im not that old!!! My first time at wdw was 1982.
And Captain you may puke on modern thrill coasters but i certainly dont and wouldnt defame them in the manner that you did!!! And disney could build a great thrill coaster in doors if they want or have it outside and it would be equally as great. When i see a coaster the last thing i think of is "ugly metal loops" but enjoy the site and sound of a greath thrill coaster and hear the people screaming as they enjoy themslves on a great ride!!! outdoor coaster can be certainly well themed if the will is their and done so for a lot less than a TT with out the delays and constant break downs!!
And i would perfer they dont build somehting than build something cheap and half a**ed!!! If you arent going to build a ride/attraction to high stanards then dont do it, unless of course you are aspiring to Six flags level. But of course some people will eat hamburger and believe it is steak if a disney logo is affixed to it.

 

[Bstanley]

Aahh and there's the rub - attending to 'which' details and in 'what' unlikely places. Running a successful business is a continuous series of answers to decisions that have no clear indicators as to what the right answer is...perhaps more today than ever before.

An example : A small but statistically significant part of the reason that I like going to WDW is because of the trash cans - the 'theming' of the trash cans at WDW is literally worth money to me - the mere fact that WDW spends time and money on matching trash cans paint and appearance to their location is, in some small part, why I will travel distances and hand over gobs of money to Disney. I think I understand the concept of 'show'.

All 'standards' are created at a particular point in space and time. They reflect that point. As time moves on that point is often no longer relevant. And that's how we ended up with $800 hammers...

My personal take on DCA continues to be that it didn't fail because the people in charge chose to ignore fifty years of Disney park history, or because they hadn't been working in the field for fifty years, or because they hadn't done enough focus groups.

IMHO DCA has failed simply because the people who thought it up and made the decisions about it would rather go to a wine and cheese tasting than to the MK. No one was passionate about it, poured themselves into it and as a result it gives little back to those that visit. Who's responsible? The big ME? PP? The Imagineers? Yes.

 

[hopemax]

The big ME? PP? The Imagineers? Yes.

Actually, in DCA's case it's the Disney Design Development. The people who normally design Disney's hotels. Very few people from Imagineering were allowed to work on Disney's California Adventure. Many were forbidden to work on it at all.

 

[Bstanley]

Now that's something I didn't know.

Wow, does that explain a lot.

My apologies to the Imagineers...

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

An example : A small but statistically significant part of the reason that I like going to WDW is because of the trash cans - the 'theming' of the trash cans at WDW is literally worth money to me - the mere fact that WDW spends time and money on matching trash cans paint and appearance to their location is, in some small part, why I will travel distances and hand over gobs of money to Disney. I think I understand the concept of 'show'.

WOW!!! A man after my own heart. Did you read my post to the Captain (or was it Peter ) about the trash cans that Disneyland had back in 1968 (it’s a couple pages back). They were so themed you could hardly find them!! In fact, I was a little disappointed that they were merely painted in WDW. If you’ve ever been to Fort Wilderness you can see what I’m talking about. They use the camouflaged ones there. I’m not sure if they’re all over, but I do recall seeing them. They look like tree trunks and the little doors where you put the trash in looks like the part they chopped down. These were the cans that I noticed in Disneyland (frontierland). Now THAT was a show!!!

Very few people from Imagineering were allowed to work on Disney's California Adventure. Many were forbidden to work on it at all.

Hmmm. Now I wonder who’s brainstorm that was?!?!?!

Who's responsible? The big ME? PP? The Imagineers? Yes.

I guess that leaves big ME and PP!!! Kinda what I've been saying all along!!!

(I don’t like the ME thing!! I can’t squeeze my patented “$” into it!!!)

 

[Another Voice]

Hmmm…..

If I recall correctly, the $800 hammer wasn’t caused by meeting exacting specifications, a desire to produce the best damn hammer around, or a sudden leap in hammer technology. It was caused simply out of corporate greed by a bunch of suits who found a way to bilk the public out of even more money.

Yet another useful metaphor for California Adventure. Thank you Mr. Bstanley.

I will admit that I am lost in the logic that somehow “[DCA] didn't fail because the people in charge chose to ignore fifty years of Disney park history, or because they hadn't been working in the field for fifty years” is different than faulting them for not using WDI (who had been designing theme parks for fifty years) and choosing wine & cheese tasting over what the rest of the very successful business had been doing for fifty years. Funny how such a great management team would mess up something that had been figured out in the middle of the last century.

The real reason that the $750 million toilet seat in Disneyland’s parking is failing is because people can see that it’s nothing but a naked swindle. Just another attempt to put out as little effort as possible while demanding as much from the public as possible – and trying to con the guests by spewing out enough DISNEY’S® until the word processor clogs.

Technology standards may evolve, but the standards for entertainment were pretty much laid down by the Greeks and haven’t much changed for thirty-five hundred years. And they certainly don’t change because some over-their-heads executives try to scam a couple extra bucks. Disney’s re-learning that lesson the hard way.

 

[airlarry!]

This latest post by M. AV is why I am a Car #3 rider.

Because the Company can produce greatness. Because the Company should produce greatness.

But the leadership of this Company is producing $750 million toilet seats, and TO TOP IT ALL OFF laughing at the Japanese when they construct Tokyo Disney Seas.

That is the point that the Car # 1 group (and God Bless 'Em, I love 'em too) completely ignores. To you new people to the board, did you know that there were meetings and memos where the Brains That Ate Glendale actually predicted doom and gloom and were snickering behind the Japanese's back as DisneySeas was being erected.

Don't believe me? Check out the internet groups. Or read that last news memo where the Suits called DCA the way amusement parks should and will be built.

Sheer arrogance.

But M. AV's posts also points out that there are people that are being let go, or not utilized, that love this company and what it stands for. I believe that they are patiently waiting (or hoping)............

 

[Bstanley]

Actually excessive military standards WERE the reason that $800 hammers were made/sold - these were lowest bidder contracts in most cases.

It may be possible that DCA is the result of pure corporate greed - the decision to exclude WDI certainly sounds strange to me - but what I was trying to explain (poorly apparently) is that DCA's failure to draw in the crowds might also be explained by the fact that people who obviously have NO passion for Theme parks designed and executed it. It may be more entertaining to create a grand conspiracy theory, but more often than not simple stupidity explains most things.

Does WDI report to PP? If not it would appear he wanted to expand his empire by using 'his' resort people...

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

It may be more entertaining to create a grand conspiracy theory, but more often than not simple stupidity explains most things.

I personally never even considered a “conspiracy theory”. I go along with you. It’s a case of ‘simple stupidity’. Hey!! Ain’t I the one that keeps call him ‘inept’!!!

Does WDI report to PP? If not it would appear he wanted to expand his empire by using 'his' resort people...

Ahhhhhhhhh!! That’s even more depressing!!! What could be worse than ineptness mixed with gargantuan egos!!!

 

[Another Voice]

Actually I think “lacking passion” and “we’re only in it for the money” are simply two aspects of a single attitude towards things. It’s hardly a grand conspiracy theory. In fact it’s pretty close to standard operating procedure in Hollywood. I would describe it more as cynicism than stupidity.

WDI now reports to Paul Pressler as part of the Attractions group. A significant change from how things were done. The politics inside the corporation would make Aaron Spelling’s head twirl, but there used to be an interesting and productive dynamic between the parks and WDI. But suffice it to say that the relationship has been changed from a creator/presenter arrangement to something more like a shopping mall developer looking for leaseholders. And if the current plans for Hong Kong Disneyland proceed, that metaphor is going to become literal reality.

As for $800 hammers, gee – aren’t cost-plus contracts fun? It’s like playtime for accountants.