It Looks Like the Death Numbers are Being Inflated

To get back on topic, the point is, why would you attribute his unfortunate passing to COVID rather than a host of other things that he would no doubt succumb to?
Because the "host of other things" isn't what killed the person. The person would still be alive for at least another 24 hours if it wasn't for the disease.

None of us are going to live forever and many have underlying (but manageable) health conditions.
 
Man, I knew there was a reason I hadn't waded into these discussions - y'all need to grow a sense of humor. Maybe you don't have experience with nursing homes, but if a "gentleman" was in his 80's and had had a couple of strokes, I guarantee his loved ones would have an active DNR. You read into that what you want. To get back on topic, the point is, why would you attribute his unfortunate passing to COVID rather than a host of other things that he would no doubt succumb to? But hey, by all means, let's shut down EVERYTHING, and keep it closed - that will help. Keep in mind, that includes nursing homes. Patients in nursing homes are essentially prisoners with no visitation rights. Nobody is getting the opportunity to say goodbye as it is. The stories are heartbreaking.

As for kids, I don't know what your HS experience was like, but I would be devastated if my kids don't get the experience of a senior year, as would their grandparents. The emotional development that takes place in that year is CRUCIAL. My kids are bored silly - this cannot be good for them. This is not to mention the now 30% unemployment a lot of parents are now struggling with. We need to find a road map out of this NOW. This cannot wait 1 year, 2 years, 10 years if ever, it takes for a vaccine to be developed.
Yes, joking about who deserves to die is hilarious. :sad2: :rolleyes:

Kids missing out on milestones in their Senior Year is sad, but it's 4 months out of their entire lives. Perspective is a great thing to have.
 
As for kids, I don't know what your HS experience was like, but I would be devastated if my kids don't get the experience of a senior year, as would their grandparents.

Mommy. Where's Grandma?
Well Timmy. She died so high school kids could have their prom.

I think the kids won't be as devastated in missing out on high school activities as we believe. And if they've developed perspective, they'll understand.
 


Yes, joking about who deserves to die is hilarious. :sad2: :rolleyes:

Kids missing out on milestones in their Senior Year is sad, but it's 4 months out of their entire lives. Perspective is a great thing to have.


Thank you because I was getting a little irritated. BTW, it's not always "old folks" in nursing homes. Does my 42 year old daughter deserve to die because she has some underline issues that would kill her from the virus and she's in a nursing home paralyzed? And I have to say, cry me a river for the kids who are missing their prom and graduation. I understand it's an important milestone but I also understand as a parent of 4 kids that it's my job to get them to understand the importance of what they are sacrificing. My mom was 16/17 last year of high school in Europe when WWII bombing was going on. Many nights they had to turn off all lights and hunker down under beds/tables. That was her senior year. Instead of the negative, do something positive. Get some friends together, do a car parade through the neighborhood *separate cars signs on their car of the graduate, playing music, honking horns. They will have something to tell their kids other than...well, we whined in our house that we missed our graduation. That way they could say, we knew the importance of it all and made the best of the situation.
 
Yes, joking about who deserves to die is hilarious. :sad2: :rolleyes:

Kids missing out on milestones in their Senior Year is sad, but it's 4 months out of their entire lives. Perspective is a great thing to have.
Get a grip - I called a fictional character, that I made up, "Dude". I guess I could have called him Dennis. I didn't know he was called Dennis.
 
Mommy. Where's Grandma?
Well Timmy. She died so high school kids could have their prom.

I think the kids won't be as devastated in missing out on high school activities as we believe. And if they've developed perspective, they'll understand.
No, I think they will miss out on it a lot more than they could possibly comprehend. To get this back on topic (because we have drifted WAY off topic in case you haven't noticed), the city I live in, that daily reports over 500 cases diagnosed has a TOTAL of around 50 people in the hospital, and an equal number sheltering in place at home. That is less than 0.01% of the population that I could possibly interact with, and they'd have to break quarantine and I'd have to cross their path for that to happen. How much closer to zero do we need to get?

Unless you are pulling Grandma out of the nursing home to chaperone the prom, she is at zero risk. Check that, she is at far more risk in the nursing home - that's a fact, that's the problem! Over 25% of the cases and 46% of the deaths in CA have happened in nursing homes. Not saying we shouldn't do something, just saying we're not doing the RIGHT thing. We're destroying peoples livelihoods, denying kids the opportunity to be kids, and for what? To say we sacrificed? That's just dumb. How about we put every resource we have into protecting those that are most at risk instead?
 


Man, I knew there was a reason I hadn't waded into these discussions - y'all need to grow a sense of humor. Maybe you don't have experience with nursing homes, but if a "gentleman" was in his 80's and had had a couple of strokes, I guarantee his loved ones would have an active DNR. You read into that what you want. To get back on topic, the point is, why would you attribute his unfortunate passing to COVID rather than a host of other things that he would no doubt succumb to? But hey, by all means, let's shut down EVERYTHING, and keep it closed - that will help. Keep in mind, that includes nursing homes. Patients in nursing homes are essentially prisoners with no visitation rights. Nobody is getting the opportunity to say goodbye as it is. The stories are heartbreaking.

As for kids, I don't know what your HS experience was like, but I would be devastated if my kids don't get the experience of a senior year, as would their grandparents. The emotional development that takes place in that year is CRUCIAL. My kids are bored silly - this cannot be good for them. This is not to mention the now 30% unemployment a lot of parents are now struggling with. We need to find a road map out of this NOW. This cannot wait 1 year, 2 years, 10 years if ever, it takes for a vaccine to be developed.

Awwww....I feel you.
It’s so unfortunate when someone misses out on a few months of senior year. It’ll devastate them for the rest of their lives.
 
Unless you are pulling Grandma out of the nursing home to chaperone the prom, she is at zero risk. Check that, she is at far more risk in the nursing home - that's a fact, that's the problem! Over 25% of the cases and 46% of the deaths in CA have happened in nursing homes. Not saying we shouldn't do something, just saying we're not doing the RIGHT thing. We're destroying peoples livelihoods, denying kids the opportunity to be kids, and for what? To say we sacrificed? That's just dumb. How about we put every resource we have into protecting those that are most at risk instead?

I agreed with this (blue) position early on. And to some degree still do but also in taking weeks to learn what is right and wrong, IMO is best. I have seen many very sick people much younger than 80ish. And reports of a lot of complications with these people.

There are many strands of this right now 30. I would love to hear if some strands are higher probability for immunity than others as well if what strands if identifiable are causing long term effects. then we could better know / structure reopenings.
 
Awwww....I feel you.
It’s so unfortunate when someone misses out on a few months of senior year. It’ll devastate them for the rest of their lives.
Judging by some of the parent's over-the-top reactions I've seen, they sure believe it will devastate them for the rest of their lives. :rolleyes: I commiserated with my son about him missing his college graduation ceremony, but I told him he's still graduating and finishing college and that is what's important. He agreed. Perspective. ;)
 
Because the "host of other things" isn't what killed the person. The person would still be alive for at least another 24 hours if it wasn't for the disease.

None of us are going to live forever and many have underlying (but manageable) health conditions.

Serious question-you can know with 100% certainty that a person would live another 24 hours from a host of other things but Covid 19 caused the death 1 day earlier?
 
Judging by some of the parent's over-the-top reactions I've seen, they sure believe it will devastate them for the rest of their lives. :rolleyes: I commiserated with my son about him missing his college graduation ceremony, but I told him he's still graduating and finishing college and that is what's important. He agreed. Perspective. ;)
Yep, I have ds’s gown here, he will have to come home and get it for his virtual ceremony. Dd19 is do disappointed to have to come home from college, dd17 and ds17 missing their junior year of school (they like school), track and soccer, junior formal, but it is what it is, they’re not whining, they’re adapting. Things are still so bad here.
 
No, I think they will miss out on it a lot more than they could possibly comprehend. To get this back on topic (because we have drifted WAY off topic in case you haven't noticed), the city I live in, that daily reports over 500 cases diagnosed has a TOTAL of around 50 people in the hospital, and an equal number sheltering in place at home. That is less than 0.01% of the population that I could possibly interact with, and they'd have to break quarantine and I'd have to cross their path for that to happen. How much closer to zero do we need to get?

Unless you are pulling Grandma out of the nursing home to chaperone the prom, she is at zero risk. Check that, she is at far more risk in the nursing home - that's a fact, that's the problem! Over 25% of the cases and 46% of the deaths in CA have happened in nursing homes. Not saying we shouldn't do something, just saying we're not doing the RIGHT thing. We're destroying peoples livelihoods, denying kids the opportunity to be kids, and for what? To say we sacrificed? That's just dumb. How about we put every resource we have into protecting those that are most at risk instead?

An unwillingness to understand the situation is mind-numbing.

You have 500 cases diagnosed and 50 people in the hospital in your area. Has everyone in your area been tested? You focus on death and hospitilizations, but that isn't the be-all and end-all. As I think I responded to you earlier, these numbers are low in your area because you have some sort of shelter at home order.

Do you know that a lot of people that are actually positive for Covid, don't have any symptoms and haven't been tested? So, they aren't sick enough where anyone notices and aren't listed in your numbers and they aren't in the hospital. But they still have the virus and can infect a number of people every
time they go out.

If just one of these people, who don't even know they are sick, go out to the prom or to the nursing home, or the grocery store, or the hardware store, or a trillion other places, they can unknowingly infect 3 people and those 3 people infect, 3 more, etc. Look at this video.


Do you really think this virus is just popping up in these nursing homes? Someone who either was sick and didn't tell anyone, was sick but did't feel or look sick. The cases just don't spontaneously show up in a nursing home. No one is taking Grandma to the prom right now, but we still have cases in the nursing home.

Something I found that makes perfect sense.

According to Emily Landon, the chief infectious disease epidemiologist at University of Chicago Medicine, "The healthy and optimistic among us will doom the vulnerable." She acknowledged that restrictions like a shelter-in-place may end up feeling “extreme” and “anticlimactic” — and that’s the point.

“It’s really hard to feel like you’re saving the world when you’re watching Netflix from your couch. But if we do this right, nothing happens,” Landon said. “A successful shelter-in-place means you’re going to feel like it was all for nothing, and you’d be right: Because nothing means that nothing happened to your family. And that’s what we’re going for here.”

Look at this chart from Florida

https://fdoh.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/8d0de33f260d444c852a615dc7837c86
The age group with the most cases right now is 45-54. It doesn't show the death rate for that age group or any age group. So there are more people walking around in that age group infecting all of the other age groups. They may kill some grandparents, but I can guarantee you that they will kill some of them in the other age groups, too.

Every age level is at risk. You are focusing on the deaths and hospitalizations. Our medical community does not yet know, decisively, if they are developing immunity or if they can get this again. They do not yet know if the people with the most severe cases, that don't die, may have long term health issues. Are you OK with your high school kid having lung issues for the rest of their life? I'm not going to risk it until with my family until more is known.

I asked both of my 30-something daughters if they cherish their senior year of high school or would they be devastated if they had had to miss graduation. Both of them said the same thing, heck NO.

The country is trying to get things rolling but if people can't understand how the virus works, I think we are doomed. It just won't be me that does it....and I'm a Grandma!!
 
This was never meant to keep people from getting Covid. It was to spread it out so the hospitals don't get overrun. That is what people are either forgetting or choosing to ignore.

I would add, also give us some time to understand the virus and the way it's going to act. To also find some treatments that might work or slow the number of positives, until we can, hopefully, find a vaccine.
 
Serious question-you can know with 100% certainty that a person would live another 24 hours from a host of other things but Covid 19 caused the death 1 day earlier?
Medical professionals can generally get pretty close on those types of things.

Not trying to strawman but it's kind of like a stage 4 cancer patient dying in a car accident. Would they have eventually died of cancer? Likely. Did their weakened immune system contribute to their death? Likely. Is their cause of death a car accident? Well, they would have made it to their destination alive if it wasn't for that accident so I'm going to say yes.
 
Medical professionals can generally get pretty close on those types of things.

Not trying to strawman but it's kind of like a stage 4 cancer patient dying in a car accident. Would they have eventually died of cancer? Likely. Did their weakened immune system contribute to their death? Likely. Is their cause of death a car accident? Well, they would have made it to their destination alive if it wasn't for that accident so I'm going to say yes.

I don’t think it’s comparable to a car accident at all.

A car accident is a sudden type death, cancer is an illness. If someone does from a car accident it is likely the trauma that kills them. If the person also had cancer, it would still be the trauma that killed them.

Cancer is an illness. If someone has cancer and is days from dying and they happen to test positive of Covid 19, it’s shouldn’t be automatic that Covid 19 is the cause of death. Covid 19 may not have changed anything and the person succumbed to the cancer.
 
I don’t think it’s comparable to a car accident at all.

A car accident is a sudden type death, cancer is an illness. If someone does from a car accident it is likely the trauma that kills them. If the person also had cancer, it would still be the trauma that killed them.

Cancer is an illness. If someone has cancer and is days from dying and they happen to test positive of Covid 19, it’s shouldn’t be automatic that Covid 19 is the cause of death. Covid 19 may not have changed anything and the person succumbed to the cancer.

I think the number of times that is happening, is minute.

If it is happening frequently, then I think they will go back and look at their statistics. How many people died in the hospital from cancer in the 3rd week of March. If their statistics show that they have 7 people dying in their hospital of cancer in an entire week, then what else could explain the fact that they saw 3 people with cancer that came in on one day, tested positive for Covid and died? I say it was Covid.

Edited to add: they are looking at the conditions that the patient is presenting when they come into the hospital. I'm fairly confident my death from cancer looks a little different to a medical professional than the Covid virus.
 
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