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I always turned boys down as nice AS POSSIBLE and I would teach anyone to do that even disturbed kids. That has nothing to do with having to accept invitations from boys that ask you out, just turn down nicely, some people get a kick out of being mean. Yes...seriously. Am making the point that it's easier to be mean nowadays with FB and social media, we see it here on this very board, gangs and people just thrive on it. People putting laughing faces to other's comments and then all of a sudden you'll see tons of people putting likes to it. It's become ok to say really bad things nowadays. I'm just glad I didn't grow up during that time. And I personally believe some people that commit horrible crimes are mentally ill, but many are just plain EVIL and enjoy dark things.

I'm sure it will remain to be seen but the story circulating this morning was that he pursued her for several months despite her telling him no and it was just last week that she "embarassed him" somehow publicly or online in another attempt to get him to back off.
 
I fully believe it is the "participation trophy" effect. Today's children are not being taught to deal with rejection and failure in a healthy way.

I think your phrasing is wrong (participation trophies, which are usually medals now, are a developmental-level thing, given to kids in their first years playing a sport when they are expected to be learning rules/basic skills rather than focusing on competing. By the time they're about 10, only the top few teams get awards, at least in my area), but I do think you're on to something. I feel like it is very telling that the demographics of the school shooter are what they are - almost to a one, they're relatively economically privileged white boys who seem to feel they're owed more than they're being given. If it was about bullying we'd see minorities and girls and LGBT kids and the disabled shooting up schools, because they're the ones most apt to be the victims of bullies. But instead, we see a football player shooting up the school over not getting the girl he wanted because he apparently has never gotten his head around the idea that the rest of the world doesn't exist solely for his gratification.
 
I always turned boys down as nice AS POSSIBLE and I would teach anyone to do that even disturbed kids. That has NOTHING to do with having to accept invitations from boys that ask you out, just turn down nicely, some people get a kick out of being mean. Yes...seriously. Am making the point that it's easier to be mean nowadays with FB and social media, we see it here on this very board, gangs and people just thrive on it. People putting laughing faces to other's comments and then all of a sudden you'll see tons of people putting likes to it. It's become ok to say really bad things nowadays.
Are you actually saying that IF she said it in a mean way it rationalizes what he did?

And sure social media has amped up things but people have been mean to each other for long time. It didn't make it ok to go shooting people at Columbine in 1999 and it doesn't make it ok now.

Anti-bullying policies have been very good to have but they are not a foolproof way of stopping people from being mean.
 
I don’t believe that one thing-the girl turning him down-caused this. It could have been the last thing or one small part of it.

But what makes a rejection so hard? Why would the same rejection that 90% of all high school students go through cause this? There had to be more. Something happened to this kid. Either a mental health issue suddenly presented itself (which can happen at his age) or something traumatic happened-more than a girl turning him down.

We didn’t just start owning guns. They aren’t a new thing. And yes I know there were a few school shooting upteen years ago but the number of them that happen now is new. What has changed? Guns have always been a part of our society. The whole “guns in every pick up truck window” isn’t just a meme on Facebook, that’s the way it was for years around here. Most of the trucks in the school parking lot had a gun in it for hunting. And not one of them were used to hurt another human being. What changed? Not the guns. Not gun ownership. So what is it?
I have an unpopular opinion. I will get flack for saying but I will put it out there anyway. I think it's a perfect storm of A) kids with severe issues or disorders being mainstreamed (didn't see that 40 years ago).....B) over population of schools (too many kids, and many with issues, for administration to handle effectively)... C) parents who moan and complain if their kids get in trouble (not my Johnny and I'm going to the school board of you dare punish my child). And to expand on this...parenting has gone to shoot. Parents want to be their kids' friends and also don't ever want their kids to have any kind of negative feelings (the little darlings must be happy and liking them, the parents, at all times). I will also add in D) administration and teachers are way underpaid for the BS they deal with.
 


While the whole "gun racks in the school parking lot" was not something I experienced, enough people seem to mention it that I do think it was the experience for some.
When reading your post and thinking about what has changed, I can't help but think of many of the threads we've had here after shootings. The big difference I see in the nostalgic type "gun racks in the parking lot" and posts about him ownership now is the reasons for owning and the mentality behind him ownership in general. On these types of thread it's very seldom about hunting and more about protection, someone or some group out to hurt you, distrust, being ready to fight tyranny, and things like that.
You have groups and businesses that make huge amounts of money by feeding into peoples fears and or anger. Whenever you have groups and businesses like that reaching millions of people, you are going to end up with a certain amount of people taking it too far and acting out.

Ok now that makes sense. The attitude of gun ownership or the reason behind it perhaps has changed.

I would say that most males around here, at least up through the ages of my sons, grew up with guns. But their guns were tools used for hunting. There is the rare cases of taking them out for protection but very rare. But it stands to reason that males of those eras grew up with a different attitude about the guns they owned. And a different respect for them.
 
I have an unpopular opinion. I will get flack for saying but I will put it out there anyway. I think it's a perfect storm of A) kids with severe issues or disorders being mainstreamed (didn't see that 40 years ago).....B) over population of schools (too many kids, and many with issues, for administration to handle effectively)... C) parents who moan and complain if their kids get in trouble (not my Johnny and I'm going to the school board of you dare punish my child). And to expand on this...parenting has gone to shoot. Parents want to be their kids' friends and also don't ever want their kids to have any kind of negative feelings (the little darlings must be happy and liking them, the parents, at all times). I will also add in D) administration and teachers are way underpaid for the BS they deal with.

I don’t disagree with you at all. I think you have an excellent point.

Perhaps these things,combined with a different attitude toward guns is just causing this hell storm of tragedies.

I also think that maybe if this kid really did lose it over rejection, maybe we are seeing the lack of knowing how to lose or be rejected. The results of “everyone gets a trophy” thing.
 
I'm sure it will remain to be seen but the story circulating this morning was that he pursued her for several months despite her telling him no and it was just last week that she "embarassed him" somehow publicly or online in another attempt to get him to back off.

I certainly hope people aren't blaming this girl! There is no excuse for shooting up a school.
 


While the whole "gun racks in the school parking lot" was not something I experienced, enough people seem to mention it that I do think it was the experience for some.
When reading your post and thinking about what has changed, I can't help but think of many of the threads we've had here after shootings. The big difference I see in the nostalgic type "gun racks in the parking lot" and posts about him ownership now is the reasons for owning and the mentality behind him ownership in general. On these types of thread it's very seldom about hunting and more about protection, someone or some group out to hurt you, distrust, being ready to fight tyranny, and things like that.
You have groups and businesses that make huge amounts of money by feeding into peoples fears and or anger. Whenever you have groups and businesses like that reaching millions of people, you are going to end up with a certain amount of people taking it too far and acting out.

Exactly. Look at the studies out there about perception of danger vs. real risk. So many of us believe so completely that the world is a much more dangerous place than it was just a couple of decades ago, whether we're thinking about overall crime or specific risks (kidnapping, terrorism, gang violence, etc.), when the reality is just the opposite. There's a huge disconnect between objective reality and perceived danger, and there are a TON of interest groups from the NRA and gun manufacturers to the media to politicians, making a TON of money on stoking those fears and obscuring the objective reality.

And not only is there a big difference in the weapons and storage protocols one chooses if you're constantly afraid and thinking about self-defense compared to those you'd choose if a gun is a tool for hunting or scaring predators away, there's also a fundamental difference in the willingness to talk about even moderate changes to gun control laws. Because "they're coming for your guns" is a far more effective threat/rallying cry for those who think they need those guns just to survive than it is for a sportsman or recreational shooter.
 
If it was about bullying we'd see minorities and girls and LGBT kids and the disabled shooting up schools, because they're the ones most apt to be the victims of bullies. But instead, we see a football player shooting up the school over not getting the girl he wanted because he apparently has never gotten his head around the idea that the rest of the world doesn't exist solely for his gratification.
Well bullying has played a large roll in a good portion of incidents. Whether we think the most popular student or what we perceive is a popularity status by being a football player by no means means they can't be bullied. There are also things in people's lives such as bullying at home. It doesn't have to come solely from school grounds.

I do think when speaking about females the thing is statistically speaking females are not known for much more violent means of hurting themselves or someone else for example with guns. Suicide for example is vastly disproportionately done by guns when it comes to males, whereas females tend to use medication/overdosing.

The reasons behind don't make it ok in my head to do what he did or anyone else for that matter no matter your race or gender or sexual orientation, the reasons behind may help in the future.
 
I don’t believe that one thing-the girl turning him down-caused this. It could have been the last thing or one small part of it.

But what makes a rejection so hard? Why would the same rejection that 90% of all high school students go through cause this? There had to be more. Something happened to this kid. Either a mental health issue suddenly presented itself (which can happen at his age) or something traumatic happened-more than a girl turning him down.

We didn’t just start owning guns. They aren’t a new thing. And yes I know there were a few school shooting upteen years ago but the number of them that happen now is new. What has changed? Guns have always been a part of our society. The whole “guns in every pick up truck window” isn’t just a meme on Facebook, that’s the way it was for years around here. Most of the trucks in the school parking lot had a gun in it for hunting. And not one of them were used to hurt another human being. What changed? Not the guns. Not gun ownership. So what is it?

Your reply here took what I said out of context. I clearly said it's a complex issue and never meant to assume that that one thing cause this at all in any. Being nicer was also stated by a kid shot there today on the news as to what he thought would help. My point was that we need to be nicer as a whole also and add to that the ability to bully and be mean in a very larger more powerful way now with social media, etc. which makes it very hard now a days for kids. Still did not mean that this caused this issue. Just many things we need to discuss as a whole. It is complex. I think that social media and the power of the NRA and these news stations add to the violence also. We never had that before. Just look how the NRA comes out and states things and after these shootings we have tons more guns bought. Like I said, I know people nowadays that have literal almost arsenals in their basements, a guy just up the street from me as an example. And we never had trucks in my area with guns on them, not in the North. But again, it is a complex issue.
The South is the most violent region in the United States.

post, Healy drilled further into the numbers and looked at deaths due to assault in different regions of the country. Just as the United States is a clear outlier in the international context, the South is a clear outlier in the national context:
More guns tend to mean more homicide.

The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there's substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders.

This holds true whether you're looking at different countries or different states. Citations here

States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.

dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:
 
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Well bullying has played a large roll in a good portion of incidents. Whether we think the most popular student or what we perceive is a popularity status by being a football player by no means means they can't be bullied. There are also things in people's lives such as bullying at home. It doesn't have to come solely from school grounds.

Except that the facts just don't back that up. The knee-jerk reaction is always to ascribe these things to bullying, but from Columbine to Parkland that narrative unravels on closer investigation. Many shooters have displayed a pattern of harassment and bullying against others, often indirectly (swastikas and racial slurs, for example), which leads to social isolation. The media looks at that social isolation without taking the time to find the underlying cause and reports the shooter was bullied. Then weeks or months later, the whole story comes out but most of us have moved on so we don't hear that the poor, bullied victim who snapped and shot up his school was really a seemingly normal kid who took a party bus to prom with a dozen friends just days before the shooting, or a disturbed young man who tortured animals and exhibited all the classic hallmarks of the psychopath.
 
I'm sure it will remain to be seen but the story circulating this morning was that he pursued her for several months despite her telling him no and it was just last week that she "embarassed him" somehow publicly or online in another attempt to get him to back off.

I would not speculate in any way about this, I was saying as a whole we need to. Social media has made it easier to be ugly that was my point. I have no idea what happened in this case. It's complex. They may be the aggressor, or the bully. It doesn't matter, we as a whole need to act nicer. And I do also agree with another above that a kid who acts out, tortures animals as another mentions, there are signs that need to be followed up on, absolutely.
 
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Are you actually saying that IF she said it in a mean way it rationalizes what he did?

And sure social media has amped up things but people have been mean to each other for long time. It didn't make it ok to go shooting people at Columbine in 1999 and it doesn't make it ok now.

Anti-bullying policies have been very good to have but they are not a foolproof way of stopping people from being mean.

No I said or meant nothing of the sort. OMG lol. That is way out there. And I also have no idea if that is the case here that he was bullied. I was speaking as a whole as that was mentioned. These issues are very complex which I clearly said. Starting with being nice was also mentioned by a kid on the news that was shot there just today. So you might want to think about it. That is another reason I mentioned. But it is also a fact that mass shootings have increased.
 
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Except that the facts just don't back that up. The knee-jerk reaction is always to ascribe these things to bullying, but from Columbine to Parkland that narrative unravels on closer investigation. Many shooters have displayed a pattern of harassment and bullying against others, often indirectly (swastikas and racial slurs, for example), which leads to social isolation. The media looks at that social isolation without taking the time to find the underlying cause and reports the shooter was bullied. Then weeks or months later, the whole story comes out but most of us have moved on so we don't hear that the poor, bullied victim who snapped and shot up his school was really a seemingly normal kid who took a party bus to prom with a dozen friends just days before the shooting, or a disturbed young man who tortured animals and exhibited all the classic hallmarks of the psychopath.
I'm not ascribing anything. I'm just saying that bullying has played role in incidents (ETA: I should clarifying I'm not saying all incidents). The fact that someone is a football player doesn't absolve them from being bullied which it seemed you implied. You're correlating popularity status to whether someone can be bullied or not.

Hate crime, extremist views to me are of a different animal so to speak than normal bullying.

As far as Columbine I'm not sure what you're implying there.
 
No I said nothing of the sort. OMG lol. That is way out there. And I also have no idea if that is the case here that he was bullied. I was speaking as a whole as that was mentioned. These issues are very complex which I clearly said. Starting with being nice was also mentioned by a kid on the news that was shot there today. So another reason I mentioned. Again it is a complex issue. And no two people doing it are exactly the same either or for the same reasons.
I suggest you reread your comments.
 
I look at a large part of the problem is the desensitization of our youth to violence and killing through movies, youtube and video games. You look at today's kids watching movies that when we were growing up (I am 52) would have been rated R and or our parents would not allow us to watch them now you see that violence on TV during what used to be called family time (I have watched my nephew grow up with is parents taking him to R rated movies since is was little, playing call of duty and like games for hours since he has been 7 or 8 yrs old. He some what makes me nervous he does not seen to have any emotion to anything). Both my parents took a interest in what we watched and played.

I grew up playing Cowboys and Indians, Cops and Robbers with our cap guns, going deer hunting or bird hunting before school and keeping my gun in my locker at school along with many of my friends. Yes I was bullied at times for being the quite, nerdy kid at times during the course of my years in school, but in no way ever thought about taking out a gun and shooting up the school.

Taking guns away from all lawful people will not stop the violence.

I am sorry if this is rambling, I am not the best person for putting my thoughts to paper but I think you get my idea.

We all need to take the time and talk to our kids on a daily basis and know what is going on in there life, we are parents not friends to our children. I will always be there for my children but I will let them know life is not always fair.
 
5 things to know about mass shootings in America
5 things to know about mass shootings in America

file-20180518-42238-m3lmmn.jpg

Outside Santa Fe High School in Texas on May 18, 2018.
AP Photo/David J. Phillip
Frederic Lemieux, Georgetown University

At least 10 students were killed at a Santa Fe, Texas high school on May 18 after a classmate opened fire with a shotgun and a .38 revolver.

The shooting came just three months after another teen shooter killed 17 in Parkland, Florida, sparking nationwide youth-led protests over gun violence – and a familiar debate over what changes could really make a difference.

As a criminologist, I often hear misconceptions creeping into the debate that springs up whenever a mass shooting occurs.

Here’s what the research actually shows.

#1: More guns don’t make you safer
A study I conducted on mass shootings indicated that this phenomenon is not limited to the United States.

Mass shootings also took place in 25 other wealthy nations between 1983 and 2013, but the number of mass shootings in the United States far surpasses that of any other country included in the study during the same period of time.

The U.S. had 78 mass shootings during that 30-year period.

The highest number of mass shootings experienced outside the United States was in Germany – where seven shootings occurred.

In the other 24 industrialized countries taken together, 41 mass shootings took place.

In other words, the U.S. had nearly double the number of mass shootings than all other 24 countries combined in the same 30-year period.


Another significant finding is that mass shootings and gun ownership rates are highly correlated. The higher the gun ownership rate, the more a country is susceptible to experiencing mass shooting incidents. This association remains high even when the United States is withdrawn from the analysis.


Similar results have been found by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, which states that countries with higher levels of firearm ownership also have higher firearm homicide rates.

My study also shows a strong correlation between mass shooting casualties and overall death by firearms rates. However, in this last analysis, the relation seems to be mainly driven by the very high number of deaths by firearms in the United States. The relation disappears when the United States is withdrawn from the analysis.

#2: Mass shootings are more frequent
A recent study published by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center shows that the frequency of mass shooting is increasing over time. The researchers measured the increase by calculating the time between the occurrence of mass shootings. According to the research, the days separating mass shooting occurrence went from on average 200 days during the period of 1983 to 2011 to 64 days since 2011.

What is most alarming with mass shootings is the fact that this increasing trend is moving in the opposite direction of overall intentional homicide rates in the U.S., which decreased by almost 50 percent since 1993 and in Europe where intentional homicides decreased by 40 percent between 2003 and 2013.

#3: Restricting sales works
Thanks to the Second Amendment, the United States has permissive gun licensing laws. This is in contrast to most developed countries, which have restrictive laws.

According to a seminal work by criminologists George Newton and Franklin Zimring, permissive gun licensing laws refer to a system in which everyone except specially prohibited groups of persons can purchase a firearm. In such a system, an individual does not have to justify purchasing a weapon; rather, the licensing authority has the burden of proof to deny gun acquisition.

By contrast, restrictive gun licensing laws refer to a system in which individuals who want to purchase firearms must demonstrate to a licensing authority that they have valid reasons to get a gun – like using it on a shooting range or going hunting – and that they demonstrate “good character
.”

The differences between these type of gun laws have important impacts. Countries with more restrictive gun licensing laws show fewer deaths by firearms and a lower gun ownership rate.

#4: Background checks work
In most of the restrictive background checks performed in developed countries like Canada and Australia, citizens are required to train for gun handling, obtain a license for hunting or provide proof of membership to a shooting range.

Individuals must prove that they do not belong to any “prohibited group,” such as the mentally ill, criminals, children or those at high risk of committing violent crime, such as individuals with a police record of threatening the life of another.

Here’s the bottom line. With these provisions, most U.S. active shooters would have been denied the purchase of a firearm.

#5: Most mass shootings are not terrorism
Journalists sometimes describe mass shooting as a form of domestic terrorism. This connection may be misleading.

There is no doubt that mass shootings are “terrifying” and “terrorize” the community where they have happened. However, not all active shooters involved in mass shooting have a political message or cause.

For example, the church shooting in Charleston, South Carolina, in June 2015 was a hate crime but was not judged by the federal government to be a terrorist act.

The majority of active shooters are linked to mental health issues, bullying and disgruntled employees. Active shooters may be motivated by a variety of personal or political motivations, usually not aimed at weakening government legitimacy. Frequent motivations are revenge or a quest for power.

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Editor’s note: This piece was updated on May 18, 2018 and Oct. 2, 2017. It was originally published on Dec. 3, 2015.

Frederic Lemieux, Professor of the Practice and Faculty Director of the Master’s in Applied Intelligence, Georgetown University

This article was originally published on The Conversation. Read the original article.
 
Your reply here took what I said out of context. I clearly said it's a complex issue and never meant to assume that that one thing cause this at all in any. My point was that we need to be nicer as a whole also and add to that the ability to bully and be mean in a very larger more powerful way now with social media, etc. which makes it very hard now a days for kids. Still did not mean that this caused this issue. Just many things we need to discuss as a whole. It is complex. I think that social media and the power of the NRA and these news stations add to the violence also. We never had that before. Just look how the NRA comes out and states things and after these shootings we have tons more guns bought. Like I said, I know people nowadays that have literal almost arsenals in their basements, a guy just up the street from me as an example. And we never had trucks in my area with guns on them, not in the North. But again, it is a complex issue.
The South is the most violent region in the United States.

post, Healy drilled further into the numbers and looked at deaths due to assault in different regions of the country. Just as the United States is a clear outlier in the international context, the South is a clear outlier in the national context:
More guns tend to mean more homicide.

The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there's substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders.

This holds true whether you're looking at different countries or different states. Citations here

States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.

dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:

People certainly need to be nicer. And hey it can never hurt to try it.

I tried to go to your link, it said it no longer exists so couldn’t read the whole thing. But when I try to look up violent crimes by states, they don’t seem to all agree. D.C is the highest in one, Alaska in another. Same thing with stricter gun laws and fewer gun deaths. Illinois is certainly seen as an exception there. So the experts just don’t seem to agree.

Also, remember that I was referring to the past with the guns in the trucks. And it wasn’t hand guns so those crimes wouldn’t be a part of that equation. The fact is there would be numerous guns on a school campus. Fights and disagreements and bullying all went on and no gun was pulled.


Also with your next post, not arguing the points at all BUT all the background checks would not have stopped THIS kid. They weren’t his guns.
 
I look at a large part of the problem is the desensitization of our youth to violence and killing through movies, youtube and video games. You look at today's kids watching movies that when we were growing up (I am 52) would have been rated R and or our parents would not allow us to watch them now you see that violence on TV during what used to be called family time (I have watched my nephew grow up with is parents taking him to R rated movies since is was little, playing call of duty and like games for hours since he has been 7 or 8 yrs old. He some what makes me nervous he does not seen to have any emotion to anything). Both my parents took a interest in what we watched and played.

I grew up playing Cowboys and Indians, Cops and Robbers with our cap guns, going deer hunting or bird hunting before school and keeping my gun in my locker at school along with many of my friends. Yes I was bullied at times for being the quite, nerdy kid at times during the course of my years in school, but in no way ever thought about taking out a gun and shooting up the school.

Taking guns away from all lawful people will not stop the violence.

I am sorry if this is rambling, I am not the best person for putting my thoughts to paper but I think you get my idea.

We all need to take the time and talk to our kids on a daily basis and know what is going on in there life, we are parents not friends to our children. I will always be there for my children but I will let them know life is not always fair.

Totally agree with much of what you said except for the taking guns away, at least look at my post above. I grew up watching Walt Disney every Sunday, nice movies, and we never had violence like this. It's a complex issue. We've become an uglier world in a lot of areas for a number of reasons. Our kids lose a lot innocence at a young age, it's sad.
 
My opinion on this is there are several things that should be done...

1) Better mental health. How many of the shooters were people that teachers and parents knew were disturbed already? How many more did the students know.
2) Listening to the kids. Maybe this has changed but when I was in school there were a pretty high number of teachers that just didn't give a damn. They weren't worth telling anything to ever. If you had an issue and wanted to actually solve it through the teachers in the "correct" way there were a few teachers that gave a damn, of course that meant those few had to deal with everything.
3) Make it a bit harder to get guns. I don't like the idea of mandating things at the federal level, I hate that we keep taking more and more powers from the states but honestly this is one of those issues that if all the states nearby doesn't do X one state doing X doesn't matter. So maybe at the federal level we do have to require background checks at a certain level, bonus if the system is federal so that the thing you did in LA registers when you try to buy in TX.

I think that is a pretty good start. Let's start there and see where that gets us.
 
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