Moms of Liberty - Hypocrisy at its worst

[Smugpugmug]

It was taken down a few minutes yesterday, but then popped back up. I don't see the harm in this discussion. Anyone reporting it.....or those finding it boring, can just ignore it.

What this thread is devolving into is what got the 5+ threads about Reedy Creek deleted. It's the same talking points and no one's mind is getting changed.

I haven't reported anything though I'd love to know who the mass reporter mentioned a few pages ago is

 

[Party.Of.4-NY>>>FL]

Do you have examples of what's going on in MANY classrooms?

I thought all of the calls to ban books were books that were OPTIONAL to read. That kids would need to actively CHOOSE to read them. Am I wrong?

You’re right. But to be sure, let’s check our meth, I mean, math. Let’s check our math. Substitute the word “book” for something more creative. Many stories have a hero, or heroine. Let’s go with heroine. The heroine, is not being “forced” on the children by way of the curriculum. Rather, it’s safely kept just down the hall in the school library. Learning about the heroine is not mandatory. So if there was to be an encounter, it would be the child’s fault for “choosing” to learn about the heroine.

 

[dvcgirl67]

What this thread is devolving into is what got the 5+ threads about Reedy Creek deleted. It's the same talking points and no one's mind is getting changed.

I haven't reported anything though I'd love to know who the mass reporter mentioned a few pages ago is

I've only reported very obvious spam by someone who joined the board right before posting. I'm not a pearl clutching Karen. I don't know who reports these types of threads, but I notice some who I don't recognize as regulars on this board....who pop up whenever these types of conversations show up. So, I'd start there I guess.

 

[sam_gordon]

I guess you can throw me in the hypocrite wagon too. I'm a bisexual father of two that doesn't want hardcore smut in my children's elementary school. I can think of no reason why a kindergarten teacher needs to speak graphically about LGBT sexual and political issues. Here is the text for the Parental Rights in Education bill. https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF that was dubbed by the media, "Don't Say Gay." Read it and tell me what is controversial about what is actually in the bill.

Here you go... https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/02/17...aW79XZHlXCcRXr612icbY6Xxraoelj60aAhYLEALw_wcB

The bill would also require school personnel to notify parents of changes in a student’s physical, mental, or emotional health.

On it's face, that sounds good. Yes, I'd want the school to inform me if there's a change in my child's physical, mental, or emotional health. BUT...

It would significantly limit the ability of counselors and teachers to be a confidential resource for students, including LGBT students who may not feel safe or comfortable asking questions about sexual orientation or gender identity to family members.

Is that really a good idea? If a student goes to a teacher or counselor and says "I'm scared about talking to my parents about <insert item here>" (it doesn't need to be gender or sexual orientation), now that the "school" "knows", they MUST tell the parent? I'd have no problem with saying the "school should ENCOURAGE the student talk to their parent." But I fully believe there would be kids who would suffer emotional and physical harm from their parents if the parents found out. Do you disagree?

ETA: I feel the bill DOES take away school personnel as confidants for the kids. Whether the kids parents will actually react the way the kids think they will is beside the point. What child is going to want to take that chance if they know the teacher they confide in MUST pass the information on to the parents? You think THAT'S "good"?

 

[Wubar]

Do you have examples of what's going on in MANY classrooms?

I thought all of the calls to ban books were books that were OPTIONAL to read. That kids would need to actively CHOOSE to read them. Am I wrong?

This. If it's optional, and these parents are raising such upstanding and strong children that are abiding by their parents' moral fiber, then these books shouldn't be a problem. Ignore them, or even read them but not be "swayed" by the content, but just learn something new and outside of one's paradigm.

The mere presence of these books triggers the hell out of these folks. Ever read the Bible through and through? Plenty of content included therein that should be on these hit lists. But look the other way, some more "rules for thee but not for me" action.

 

[Christine]

ETA: I feel the bill DOES take away school personnel as confidants for the kids. Whether the kids parents will actually react the way the kids think they will is beside the point. What child is going to want to take that chance if they know the teacher they confide in MUST pass the information on to the parents? You think THAT'S "good"?

As you well know, the parent who thinks that's good is the type of parent than can do a lot of physical and emotional hard to their own children, in some cases. As a high schooler in the early 80s, I went to my guidance counselor for a few issues that I didn't want to talk to my parents about. I had/have wonderful parents but they were fairly judgmental about some things and I often didn't want to go to them until I had to. It was nice to have a safe adult to run things by and may be offer some solutions.

 

[sam_gordon]

The mere presence of these books triggers the hell out of these folks. Ever read the Bible through and through? Plenty of content included therein that should be on these hit lists. But look the other way, some more "rules for thee but not for me" action.

I wasn't going to bring it up, but I believe some schools HAVE banned the Bible using these guidelines. Of course, those advocating for the book bans in the first place were up in arms.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bible-ban-utah-school-district-elementary-middle-complaint-sex-book/
https://www.edweek.org/teaching-lea...getting-pulled-off-school-bookshelves/2022/12

 

[sam_gordon]

As you well know, the parent who thinks that's good is the type of parent than can do a lot of physical and emotional hard to their own children, in some cases. As a high schooler in the early 80s, I went to my guidance counselor for a few issues that I didn't want to talk to my parents about. I had/have wonderful parents but they were fairly judgmental about some things and I often didn't want to go to them until I had to. It was nice to have a safe adult to run things by and may be offer some solutions.

Yup. I'd like to think my kids would be willing to talk to us (DW &/or myself) about anything. But if they're scared to, I'd rather they have an ADULT they can easily reach out to to talk to and/or get advice. I feel that would be better than getting advice from peers or, worse yet, keeping it "in".

 

[robinb]

I guess you can throw me in the hypocrite wagon too. I'm a bisexual father of two that doesn't want hardcore smut in my children's elementary school. I can think of no reason why a kindergarten teacher needs to speak graphically about LGBT sexual and political issues. Here is the text for the Parental Rights in Education bill. https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF that was dubbed by the media, "Don't Say Gay." Read it and tell me what is controversial about what is actually in the bill.

No one wants smut in their in their elementary school classroom, but that's how MFL got their foot through the door.
They lied and fearmongered about what was being taught in classrooms.

Are you aware that the this April the Florida legislature extended the bill you linked, originally meant for K-3rd grade, through high school?

https://www.edweek.org/policy-polit...y-gay-law-heres-what-you-need-to-know/2023/04

Also, are you aware that through books like David Shannon’s “No, David!” were banned because one of the illustrations was the little boy David running away naked from his mom? You mean that kind of "porn"?

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2023/11/17/florida-school-book-bans/

 

[gmi3804]

I daresay that the kind of person who doesn't want certain books taught to their kids isn't the kind of person who's teaching their kids to read. Of course, the quickest way to get a kid to do something is to tell them not to do it. But to deliberately withhold age-appropriate knowledge from kids is anti-intellectual and flies in the face of the very foundations of what a well-rounded education is. I just wish parents who choose to do this can just admit that they're deliberately censoring what they want their kids to know. Surely those kids have gotten used to being raised with such an ignorant worldview and will teach and pass the same ignorance on to their own kids.

 

[Douglas Dubh]

EVERYONE? Please name names. Or is that just what you "heard," or was told?

I can read. Can you?

 

[georgina]

I guess you can throw me in the hypocrite wagon too. I'm a bisexual father of two that doesn't want hardcore smut in my children's elementary school. I can think of no reason why a kindergarten teacher needs to speak graphically about LGBT sexual and political issues. Here is the text for the Parental Rights in Education bill. https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF that was dubbed by the media, "Don't Say Gay." Read it and tell me what is controversial about what is actually in the bill.

Oh, that smutty shakespeare! Too much for our delicate high school kids to handle. i went to a Catholic HS and we read Shakespeare.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out...s-caught-floridas-dont-say-gay-laws-rcna98970

 

[Sweettears]

While it can happen, teen pregnancy sees significantly higher rates in certain states. Not hard to connect the dots on what these states have in common...


View attachment 814991

Population

 

[Sweettears]

I guess you can throw me in the hypocrite wagon too. I'm a bisexual father of two that doesn't want hardcore smut in my children's elementary school. I can think of no reason why a kindergarten teacher needs to speak graphically about LGBT sexual and political issues. Here is the text for the Parental Rights in Education bill. https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF that was dubbed by the media, "Don't Say Gay." Read it and tell me what is controversial about what is actually in the bill.

Can you quote some examples or evidence of what’s being disseminated?

 

[Party.Of.4-NY>>>FL]

Can you quote some examples or evidence of what’s being disseminated?

Not sure if this is what you’re asking for, and this was quoted from one of the top hits in a Google search. I have not read these books to verify or disprove the information below:

“top 10 most-removed books.

“This Book Is Gay” provides a how-to guide to find strangers for sex on gay sex apps. “Out of Darkness” contains a rape. “l8r g8r” contains discussions of oral sex. “All Boys Aren’t Blue” contains underage incest. “It’s Perfectly Normal” contains drawings of children masturbating. “Lawn Boy” contains a passage about 10-year-old boys performing oral sex on each other. “Jack of Hearts” talks about a condom that is “covered in s—-.” “Crank” details a meth-fueled rape. “Lucky” also details a rape. And “A Court of Mist and Fury,” tame by comparison, contains an extremely explicit sexual passage.”

 

[sam_gordon]

Not sure if this is what you’re asking for, and this was quoted from one of the top hits in a Google search. I have not read these books to verify or disprove the information below:

“top 10 most-removed books.

“This Book Is Gay” provides a how-to guide to find strangers for sex on gay sex apps. “Out of Darkness” contains a rape. “l8r g8r” contains discussions of oral sex. “All Boys Aren’t Blue” contains underage incest. “It’s Perfectly Normal” contains drawings of children masturbating. “Lawn Boy” contains a passage about 10-year-old boys performing oral sex on each other. “Jack of Hearts” talks about a condom that is “covered in s—-.” “Crank” details a meth-fueled rape. “Lucky” also details a rape. And “A Court of Mist and Fury,” tame by comparison, contains an extremely explicit sexual passage.”

And teachers are making kids read them? THATs my big sticking point. If the books are available in the library, or a "loan shelf" in a teacher's room, where's the harm? The kids must CHOOSE to read them. To me, it sounds like some parents are scared of what their child might want to read. IMO, if you've taught your child what you consider is "proper", then what do you have to be afraid of? They won't choose those books, right?

Worried about other kids might have more "liberal" (sorry, couldn't think of a better word) parents who are OK with their kids reading that content? But I thought this was all about parents getting to decide what their kids are exposed to. Can anyone explain?

 

[Kwami]

I mean, they banned a book about two male penguins raising a baby penguin at the zoo. I'm there was was tons of "hardcore smut" in that one.

There might be some legitimately questionable books out there, but these people are just religious zealots who hate everything LGBT+ and want kids to grow up in a world where those things just don't exist until they're 18, if ever.

 

[Party.Of.4-NY>>>FL]

And teachers are making kids read them? THATs my big sticking point. If the books are available in the library, or a "loan shelf" in a teacher's room, where's the harm? The kids must CHOOSE to read them. To me, it sounds like some parents are scared of what their child might want to read. IMO, if you've taught your child what you consider is "proper", then what do you have to be afraid of? They won't choose those books, right?

Worried about other kids might have more "liberal" (sorry, couldn't think of a better word) parents who are OK with their kids reading that content? But I thought this was all about parents getting to decide what their kids are exposed to. Can anyone explain?

I replied to one of your previous posts asking this same question. I’ll copy and paste my previous response:

“You’re right. But to be sure, let’s check our meth, I mean, math. Let’s check our math. Substitute the word “book” for something more creative. Many stories have a hero, or heroine. Let’s go with heroine. The heroine, is not being “forced” on the children by way of the curriculum. Rather, it’s safely kept just down the hall in the school library. Learning about the heroine is not mandatory. So if there was to be an encounter, it would be the child’s fault for “choosing” to learn about the heroine.”

Sam, I think in the eyes of the opposing parents, some of the content they oppose has been deemed to be harmful enough to the development of their children that they not only don’t want it in the curriculum, but they also don’t want it anywhere on school grounds. In my low-browed failed attempt at word play, I compared the harmful content to heroin and meth. I think it’s the position of the opposing parents that children shouldn’t be expected to make these types of decisions by themselves when their parents are not, and in many cases legally cannot be with them. For a more innocuous comparison, would it be okay if the school cafeteria had alcohol vending machines available for teachers to purchase from? And if they did, would it be the fault of the child for choosing to purchase alcohol for their own underage consumption? The burden of preventing children from purchasing alcohol falls 100% on the adult in any given situation. This is the best way I can think of to convey what the opposing parents might be feeling about the removal of explicit content in school libraries.

 

[Party.Of.4-NY>>>FL]

No one wants smut in their in their elementary school classroom, but that's how MFL got their foot through the door.
They lied and fearmongered about what was being taught in classrooms.

Are you aware that the this April the Florida legislature extended the bill you linked, originally meant for K-3rd grade, through high school?

Your first sentence leads me to believe you would be in support of the bill if it did, in fact, only apply and will only ever apply to K-3rd grade. Is this correct? Hypothetically speaking?

Also, are you aware that through books like David Shannon’s “No, David!” were banned because one of the illustrations was the little boy David running away naked from his mom? You mean that kind of "porn"?

No, I don’t think they mean that kind of porn.

 

[sam_gordon]

I replied to one of your previous posts asking this same question. I’ll copy and paste my previous response:

“You’re right. But to be sure, let’s check our meth, I mean, math. Let’s check our math. Substitute the word “book” for something more creative. Many stories have a hero, or heroine. Let’s go with heroine. The heroine, is not being “forced” on the children by way of the curriculum. Rather, it’s safely kept just down the hall in the school library. Learning about the heroine is not mandatory. So if there was to be an encounter, it would be the child’s fault for “choosing” to learn about the heroine.”

Sam, I think in the eyes of the opposing parents, some of the content they oppose has been deemed to be harmful enough to the development of their children that they not only don’t want it in the curriculum, but they also don’t want it anywhere on school grounds. In my low-browed failed attempt at word play, I compared the harmful content to heroin and meth. I think it’s the position of the opposing parents that children shouldn’t be expected to make these types of decisions by themselves when their parents are not, and in many cases legally cannot be with them. For a more innocuous comparison, would it be okay if the school cafeteria had alcohol vending machines available for teachers to purchase from? And if they did, would it be the fault of the child for choosing to purchase alcohol for their own underage consumption? The burden of preventing children from purchasing alcohol falls 100% on the adult in any given situation. This is the best way I can think of to convey what the opposing parents might be feeling about the removal of explicit content in school libraries.

I read your previous post. I'm hoping someone who actually supports these bans (if I understand your posts, you don't) would share their view points.

Your example of an alcohol vending machine is an interesting one. BUT there are parents who are OK with children (even elementary age) having sips of alcohol. Don't THOSE parents get to decide what's good for THEIR kids?

How about instead of banning the books, put them in their own section in the library. As part of the paperwork at the beginning of school, parents can sign off on their kids being allowed in that area? I'm not crazy about the idea, but seems a reasonable compromise. Kids still have access (or not) to the books, depending on what THEIR parents decide. Isn't that the point?