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My Journey to 50 miles (2nd attempt)... (comments welcome)

I’ve been a silent follower but figured it was time to finally time to pipe in. Kudos to you for still doing the ultra virtually. I’m also training for an ultra Billy style. You’re further along in training than I am so I’ve been stalking you, mine is not until mid June.

I like your elevations better, do you want to trade? Here is what mine looks like. Some day I will learn to look at elevation before I sign up for anything, especially my first ultra distance.

B4ED0E5B-8EE5-4711-8C7B-02B50D350021.png

Huge congrats to Donna on all her accomplishments!!! Can’t wait to hear how yours goes, you got this!!
 
I’ve been a silent follower but figured it was time to finally time to pipe in. Kudos to you for still doing the ultra virtually. I’m also training for an ultra Billy style. You’re further along in training than I am so I’ve been stalking you, mine is not until mid June.


I like your elevations better, do you want to trade? Here is what mine looks like. Some day I will learn to look at elevation before I sign up for anything, especially my first ultra distance.

View attachment 560140

Huge congrats to Donna on all her accomplishments!!! Can’t wait to hear how yours goes, you got this!!
OH Heck no! I'll keep my measly 5200ft of elevation gain! You're starting line is higher than I've ever run. I'd literally die up there.

Though I have to say, their promo video makes it look very appealing!

Good luck on your upcoming race! I sure hope it's a real in person one for you!!
 
OH Heck no! I'll keep my measly 5200ft of elevation gain! You're starting line is higher than I've ever run. I'd literally die up there.

Though I have to say, their promo video makes it look very appealing!

Good luck on your upcoming race! I sure hope it's a real in person one for you!!

Thanks! As of right now they are still planning for in person. In a weird way I’m looking forward to it and can’t wait for the challenge.
 
Dang, long time since an update!

Just got back from 10 days in the FL sunshine!!

I got all my runs in while down there. Some of them ended up being a little short for one reason or another. Some reasons I'd rather not discuss.

Got home around noon on Sunday and had to drive directly to packet pickup for the upcoming race. When I got there they didn't have my packet. UGH. Wasted 2 hour drive. Contacted the race coordinator and it turns out that since I registered so late, they may not have enough packets. I guess I'm ok with that as long as they refund my money. I'm still planning on running the race/distance regardless of a packet. Still waiting to hear from her as to what's going to happen.

FL was wonderful! Great time spent with the kids/grandkids!! Weather was far better than the PNW this time of year. Actually got in the kids pool a couple of times, though it was super duper freaking cold!! Went to the Medieval Dinner show. That was fun and the kids absolutely loved it! Spent a day with Donna at Daytona Beach. I'll probably have to go back. We didn't really get to see the downtown area. It was the beginning of bike week down there and it was packed!!

Did zero house hunting. That was kind of a surprise. I really thought Donna would want to go look.

One fantastic moment was when one of our spare daughters flew in from Vegas to surprise our real daughter for her birthday. It was super special to see the moment. Lots of laughs and tears.

Donna is still down there, which means I'll sleep like crap this week. I pick her up around noon on Friday and spend a great afternoon together.

Looking ahead to Sunday. Obviously nerves are starting to set in. I'm still having some tightness in my right hamstring when running uphill. Interesting that I didn't have any problems in FL. It only seems to spring up when I'm running on the hills. I'm trying extra stretching and foam rolling. This might be an issue come Sunday, but I'll do the same thing I did during the last training run on the trail and stretch as much as needed.
 


It appears as though spring is creeping into the PNW. Yesterday was a great day for a run! Sunny and 50 with just a little breeze. One of those days I just wanted to keep on runnin!!!

Instead I stuck to the plan and did 4 miles @ EB and some strides!!! Can't remember the last time I did strides. Sure do like them! All in all a good run.

Hammy is still weird. Wish Donna was home to put the massager on it. I'll try and do it to myself but given where it's tight I'm not sure I can do it myself.

3-16-21.png

Still nothing from the race director. Hopefully I'll hear something today.
 
I nearly skipped Wednesday's run. I don't recall ever just skipping a run. Usually I have a fairly valid reason if I miss a run but yesterday I was just tired and didn't want to run.

I took a little nap and still really didn't want to go. I got my running gear on and stretched. Still didn't want to go. Told myself I'd go do a mile and if I still felt like not running I'd walk home.

Of course once I got going it was all good! The run felt good, hamstring is still a little tight but not as bad as earlier. Weather was amazing! 58 and sunny! I don't think the weather is going to be quite as nice for the 50k. (low 40's and rain)

3-17-21.png
 


Before I get to Sunday's big run, I'm gonna jump back to Thursday. I missed Thursdays run because I was buying myself a new truck! Resized_20210318_184310.jpeg

Saturday was 2 miles at what was supposed to be EB + strides. Ended up being EA + strides. Donna ran it with me which made it fun!!

Sunday. Chuckanut 50k!!!

Well. I finished it. It was a miserable day. Cold, snow, sleet, wind, rain. Everything except warm.

So, I found out Saturday when I went to pick up my race packet that I needed to submit my time by noon on Sunday. Obviously that wasn't going to happen. I would have had to start at 4am. Now, I'm not opposed to running at 4am but on a trail that I hadn't run the first 6 miles of with a head lamp seemed like a bad idea. So I stuck to my plan to start at 7am and not worry about submitting my results.

Anyway. Actually took off at 0655. Ran into the first challenge just past mile 2. The bridge that crosses a creek had a tree fall down on it and they had it fenced off. Sooooo, thru the creek I went. It was cold! and now I had wet feet. Not to worry really, the feet would have been wet a couple miles down the road anyway.

As expected the first 7 miles was pretty easy. Stuck to a slow but steady pace, trying to reserve as much energy as I could for the mountain itself. (good planning) Donna met me at the turn around and I had a half of a pb&j sandwich. I'd already had GU's at 3 & 5 miles. Just wanted to have some other stuff along the trail.

After mile 7 the tough part started. I walked when I had to and ran when I could. Up to 10.75 miles, it was pretty uneventful. Then a very pleasant surprise. My niece met me on the trail!! It wasn't the niece I started training with. This niece had run Chuckanut before and knew that Cleator road would be a challenge. So she ran and walked with me up Cleator. About 4 miles in total. Then she headed home, but she'll appear again, later in the story. Donna met me at the intersection of Cleator and the Ridge Trail. Half a banana and a hug and kiss!!! Still taking GU and water every 2 miles as well. As I would throughout the run.

Somewhere around mile 14 I started getting twinges of calf cramps. Crap! Not like super bad but when I would have to jump over something or or make an awkward movement of some kind. Which is often along the ridge. Also, sometime around now is when I started getting some twinges in the groin. F. This is not good. Oh, and I forgot to mention, at mile 12 it had started snowing. And the wind on top of the ridge was brutal. I had dressed for 40 and dry, but the snow, sleet and rain had me soaked thru already. But as long as I was running I was still feeling ok.

From mile 18 to 21 ish it's just a sloppy soupy mess. Cold deep mud everywhere on the trail. I eventually got tired of trying to get around them and just started running through them. My feet were already soaked so it really didn't make that much difference. Well..... not right away. My nephew rode his mountain bike along the trail backwards and met up with me at about 18 miles. What a great surprise!!! He followed me until the beginning of chinscraper (mile 21) where he headed home to warm up and I headed up.... and up... and up. This is where things started to really turn south for me.

Chinscraper is basically straight up for a little more than a mile and 800ish ft of elevation gain. As I was walking, the wet and cold really started to hit me. By the time I got to the top, my fingers and toes were starting to go numb. The stop to get another PB&J, a half of a banana, refill my water bottles with water and gatorade took some time. I kinda felt like I might puke and I really didn't want to eat. But I knew I needed fuel so I forced the food in. And all that standing still didn't help. I started back down and thought if I could just get running again, maybe I could warm up. After about a mile I started to get feeling back into my fingers and toes on my left side, weird that it was just the left side. After about 1.5 miles, the right digits started to thaw. It was still a super wet slog down, but at least I was out of the wind on that side of the mountain and the snow had changed back to rain.

At about mile 25 I got back on the original trail and started heading back to the start/finish. Donna met me there with more PB&J, bananas and gatorade. When I took off from this very short break, my right knee started protesting. Not sure when I tweaked it or if it is my IT band, but it was painful to run! Eventually it loosened up enough that I could keep up a slow but reasonable pace and as long as I was moving it seemed to be holding up ok. The problem was, that I was so freaking tired I couldn't keep running. I would run for a few minutes and then walk for a few and every time I would start back to running it was the same process of pain.

At about mile 26 my niece showed back up on her mountain bike!! And she brought pickle juice for me! Now I'm not one to drink pickle juice normally, but I'd heard in the past that it helps with cramping and she confirmed from her experience that it was true. And to be honest, at this point I would have put just about anything in my body that might help with the cramping. Turns out, pickle juice might just be a magical elixir or possibly a placebo, either way at least in my case, it definitely helped. It didn't completely eliminate the cramps. But it made them manageable enough that I didn't have to stop and stretch.

When I told my niece that I had run through the creek, she laughed at me and said I didn't have to do that. There's a different route that avoids the creek. (would have been nice to know that 7 hours prior) Anyway, she showed me how to avoid one more trip through the creek and rode her bike all the way to the finish line with me. I did a fair bit of walking the last 4 miles. My legs felt numb by now and it was all I could do to trot for a few minutes at a time.

Got to the finish line at 30.9 miles. Seriously Garmin you couldn't just give me the extra .1. No worries, I ran the extra .1 in the parking lot. No way was I coming up short on distance!!

Tim and Kelly (nephew and niece, aka bike riders and runner) were a Godsend. There were several places along the route where I had thoughts of saying screw this. But them meeting up with me and encouragement were perfectly timed!! Afterwards, their offer of a hot shower and relaxing at their home was a welcome offer!! I don't a have the words to express how much their help was appreciated.

Donna was trooper! She is not one to like driving in snow, especially on an old logging road. But she never once complained and her hugs, kisses and PB&J's were just what I needed and honestly kept me going. She stood out in the cold and snow looking for me and was always ready when I showed up!!

Biggest lesson learned. Running on a mountain, even a small one is to be taken seriously!! Weather at the top, is not the same as the weather at the bottom. If I'm to do anything this nuts again, (which i doubt will happen) I'll be investing in better rain gear and waterproof gloves! I think the cold might have contributed to the cramping and overall fatigue.

@DopeyBadger Billy, thanks for another amazing training plan! Given the conditions I believe I did about as well as I could with your help!!


IMG_20210321_173528_984.jpgIMG_20210321_173529_038.jpgIMG_20210321_173529_070.jpgIMG_20210321_173529_022.jpg3-21-21 Chuckanut results.png3-21-21 elevation profile.png


Not really sure what the next goal is. Right now it's to be able to stand up and walk pain free. After that, I'll reevaluate!!!
 
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Amazing! Congratulations.

I was right along with you throughout your description. You have a strong mind and support network to keep going through all the trials and tribulations.

I laughed out loud when you were describing the snow and numbness. I know mountain trails all to well and understand you may start out in shorts and a t-shirt at the bottom and need winter gear near the top.
 
Thanks all!!

It was a crazy weather day to be sure! Big lesson learned about elevation gain!!!

I'm feeling better today. A little muscle soreness, left ankle is tender, but the right knee is feeling much better. Legs are still pretty tired. What's the general rule for resting before running again?

Went out for a 2 ish mile walk with Donna last night. It was just too nice of a day to sit inside!!

Soooooo Billy @DopeyBadger I have a couple question that I'm hoping you can answer. Is there someway to compare the distance and elevation of Chuckanut to say a flatter race? For example, would a flat 50 be somewhat equivalent to what I just ran? Just curious if there is someway to compare them. At this point I'm not planning a 50 miler..... but I wouldn't rule it out.

Also, yours or anyone else's thoughts on the pickle juice? I did a little reading on it and it seems that it has nothing to do with replenishing electrolytes like I assumed. It has more to do with resetting nerves that trigger muscle cramps that are somehow located in the back of the throat. Weird.
 
Congrats ultramarathoner!!! :banana::banana::banana::banana:

I have not yet ran an ultra, but I absolutely love pickle juice in the later miles of a marathon. I get so sick of the sugaring gels/drinks after a while. I can't say for sure whether it's helped with cramping or not, I just know that salty taste is what I crave after about mile 20.
 
Soooooo Billy @DopeyBadger I have a couple question that I'm hoping you can answer. Is there someway to compare the distance and elevation of Chuckanut to say a flatter race? For example, would a flat 50 be somewhat equivalent to what I just ran? Just curious if there is someway to compare them. At this point I'm not planning a 50 miler..... but I wouldn't rule it out.

So we can use GAP to determine what a "flat" race with the same environmental conditions and terrain would be like somewhat, but with trail vs road it would get messy. The Chuckanut GAP is about 2-2.5 minutes per mile. So your 7:52:29 run at 15:14 pace would be like a 6:35:00 50k on a flatter trail with similar complexities you faced. It's estimated the elevation changes accounted for about 1:20 hours of extra time.

If you ran a 50k in 6:35, then McMillan estimates your 50 miler of equal flatness and trail difficulty at about 12 hours and 14:27 pace. So despite the hills in Chuckanut, I'd say a flat 50 miler could easily be far more difficult than the wet/muddy/hilly 50k. But I can't say that with any high degree of confidence.

There are a few ultra runners on the Running Thread that might be better able to answer that question.
 
So we can use GAP to determine what a "flat" race with the same environmental conditions and terrain would be like somewhat, but with trail vs road it would get messy. The Chuckanut GAP is about 2-2.5 minutes per mile. So your 7:52:29 run at 15:14 pace would be like a 6:35:00 50k on a flatter trail with similar complexities you faced. It's estimated the elevation changes accounted for about 1:20 hours of extra time.

If you ran a 50k in 6:35, then McMillan estimates your 50 miler of equal flatness and trail difficulty at about 12 hours and 14:27 pace. So despite the hills in Chuckanut, I'd say a flat 50 miler could easily be far more difficult than the wet/muddy/hilly 50k. But I can't say that with any high degree of confidence.

There are a few ultra runners on the Running Thread that might be better able to answer that question.

I figured you'd be able to have some insight on that! I'm really not sure about a 50 miler. Even if I could find a fairly flat one, 12 hours of running seems a little overwhelming. Maybe I should learn to swim better and try a triathlon instead!!
 
So, next "race" has been signed up for. It's suppose to be in person!!!

This will probably be my last race in Washington State.... Not sure how I feel about that. I kinda really really like running on the trails around here. I don't think I'll find much challenge on the trails in FL. Hopefully I'm wrong about that and there are some challenges down there. Other than the mosquitoes of course!!

Donna and I are going to do another half in August. Specifically the Iron Horse Half. From the official site the course is described as follows. "The course for the Iron Horse Half Marathon is pretty awesome. It starts at Olallie State Park and finishes in North Bend at Meadowbrook Farm, and in between the two, covers 13.1 miles of beautiful scenery, numerous railroad trestles, and a whole lot of gentle elevation loss. Please see below for detailed course information, as well as a map of the course. There is an elevation loss of approximately 880 feet. The course starts at about 1300′ and finishes at about 400′ in North Bend. "

After 5k+ ft of elevation gain for Chuckanut, I'm really looking forward to 880ft of elevation loss!!!

https://www.runningahead.com/maps/745cc62809784c279aeec735cc160121?unit=mi&map=roadmap
Just look at that gentle slope downhill!!

But, before we start training for that I think I want to see how fast I can run a mile. Can't start training for the half quite yet for a couple of reasons. One, we head to Aulani in 2 weeks. I'm definitely going to run at Aulani, just didn't want to run too much. Two, Donna is going to have a little surgery when we get back (from Hawaii) and might be out of running for up to 6 weeks! YIKES!!

So, the plan is to maybe start working on a faster mile now and while in Hawaii and then using the time Donna is down to finish up that training and run a mile.

I'm thinking about using this plan and adjusting for my paces.

https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/training/a28588178/fast-mile/
I have a couple questions though. How often do you do each session? Once per week? Twice? and then what do you do in between sessions? 30-45 min @ EA/EB a couple times a week and then maybe 60-90 min LR on Sunday's?

@DopeyBadger Billy, I know you recently trained for a mile. How was it? How long did it take to train for? I'm thinking I have a 6 to 8 week timeframe from now before an attempt to run it. My pacing chart puts me at a 7:51 mile. I'd really like to shoot for that as a goal. If I can come in under 8 min at still be upright, I think I'd be happy!!
 
So, next "race" has been signed up for. It's suppose to be in person!!!

This will probably be my last race in Washington State.... Not sure how I feel about that. I kinda really really like running on the trails around here. I don't think I'll find much challenge on the trails in FL. Hopefully I'm wrong about that and there are some challenges down there. Other than the mosquitoes of course!!

Donna and I are going to do another half in August. Specifically the Iron Horse Half. From the official site the course is described as follows. "The course for the Iron Horse Half Marathon is pretty awesome. It starts at Olallie State Park and finishes in North Bend at Meadowbrook Farm, and in between the two, covers 13.1 miles of beautiful scenery, numerous railroad trestles, and a whole lot of gentle elevation loss. Please see below for detailed course information, as well as a map of the course. There is an elevation loss of approximately 880 feet. The course starts at about 1300′ and finishes at about 400′ in North Bend. "

After 5k+ ft of elevation gain for Chuckanut, I'm really looking forward to 880ft of elevation loss!!!

https://www.runningahead.com/maps/745cc62809784c279aeec735cc160121?unit=mi&map=roadmapJust look at that gentle slope downhill!!

https://www.strava.com/activities/2650797011/overview
A GAP gain of about 11 seconds per mile or 2.5 min over the course of the run. Although you better prepare your quads for a beating. It's not extreme, but it'll certainly add up over the course of the race.

But, before we start training for that I think I want to see how fast I can run a mile. Can't start training for the half quite yet for a couple of reasons. One, we head to Aulani in 2 weeks. I'm definitely going to run at Aulani, just didn't want to run too much. Two, Donna is going to have a little surgery when we get back (from Hawaii) and might be out of running for up to 6 weeks! YIKES!!

So, the plan is to maybe start working on a faster mile now and while in Hawaii and then using the time Donna is down to finish up that training and run a mile.

I'm thinking about using this plan and adjusting for my paces.

https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/training/a28588178/fast-mile/I have a couple questions though. How often do you do each session? Once per week? Twice? and then what do you do in between sessions? 30-45 min @ EA/EB a couple times a week and then maybe 60-90 min LR on Sunday's?

@DopeyBadger Billy, I know you recently trained for a mile. How was it? How long did it take to train for? I'm thinking I have a 6 to 8 week timeframe from now before an attempt to run it. My pacing chart puts me at a 7:51 mile. I'd really like to shoot for that as a goal. If I can come in under 8 min at still be upright, I think I'd be happy!!

So I interpret the plan you have chosen as the following:

-6 to 8 weeks of 5k to 10k type training to lay a base.
-6 weeks of mile specific training. Once per week you do the Key session listed.
-Your goal would be to do somewhere in the 4-6 hours of running per week range probably. Enough to have some endurance, but you don't need to really go beyond 90 min in any one session. You're working on anaerobic power and faster than VO2max pacing. So you need endurance, but not nearly as much for the mile. You're really switching gears here going from a mountain trail 50k to a mile race.

I trained for the mile using the Daniels method found in the third edition of his book. I actually started around Feb 4th aiming towards the 2020 Milwaukee Marathon, but it eventually got canceled. However, that gave me about five weeks of endurance training before I started the Daniels plan. The plan in the book can be as long as 22 weeks (from memory) but has the ability to be cut down or up. Although six weeks out is a little light in terms of maximally training for it. My training started on March 11th if you want to attempt to emulate it.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/148...rval_type=week&chart_type=miles&year_offset=1
The workouts were:

6x30s hard
8x200m at mile (200m is about 38-40 seconds)
5 sets of (2x150m + 300m) at mile (or 30 sec and 60 sec reps)
5 x 0.75 mi @ LT + 6 x 150m

and so on from there. Daniels never has you do more than 120 seconds at near mile pace. His 3k (or VO2max) pace is Daniels I pace and is typically done in equal rest to run ratio and no more than 5 minutes in a single rep. I did two hard workouts per week on Tuesday and Friday. Eventually the plan moved to three hard days per week in about 6-7 weeks time. That's about when I got injured, and I think it was because three hards per week was just too much for me to handle. In terms of peaking, I'd say I did so in about 7 weeks time. So between the 6 week endurance block and 7 week mile pacing, it took me about 13 weeks to reach peak fitness. But I only shaved off about 8-10 second per mile in the last five weeks or so. I was essentially there from the start and it was just about sharpening the sword.

My advice is to really make sure you stretch those hamstrings out because the mile was extremely taxing on them for me. So standing with my feet back and leaning down onto my kitchen countertops with my body was a really good upper hamstring stretch. And secondarily, putting my feet up on the wall and stretching my hamstrings vertically for a lower hamstring stretch.

*Like this for the upper hamstring. It took pressure off my back to do it this way.

565867

*Like this both I did both legs upwards. I do that for 30 seconds and then separate my legs into a V for another 30 seconds. I do this very gently while massaging the hamstring area near my knee. Just don't overstretch it and pop it. This is where I can feel little hamstring bundles on the back of my legs.

565865
 
https://www.strava.com/activities/2650797011/overview
A GAP gain of about 11 seconds per mile or 2.5 min over the course of the run. Although you better prepare your quads for a beating. It's not extreme, but it'll certainly add up over the course of the race.



So I interpret the plan you have chosen as the following:

-6 to 8 weeks of 5k to 10k type training to lay a base.
-6 weeks of mile specific training. Once per week you do the Key session listed.
-Your goal would be to do somewhere in the 4-6 hours of running per week range probably. Enough to have some endurance, but you don't need to really go beyond 90 min in any one session. You're working on anaerobic power and faster than VO2max pacing. So you need endurance, but not nearly as much for the mile. You're really switching gears here going from a mountain trail 50k to a mile race.

I trained for the mile using the Daniels method found in the third edition of his book. I actually started around Feb 4th aiming towards the 2020 Milwaukee Marathon, but it eventually got canceled. However, that gave me about five weeks of endurance training before I started the Daniels plan. The plan in the book can be as long as 22 weeks (from memory) but has the ability to be cut down or up. Although six weeks out is a little light in terms of maximally training for it. My training started on March 11th if you want to attempt to emulate it.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/148...rval_type=week&chart_type=miles&year_offset=1
The workouts were:

6x30s hard
8x200m at mile (200m is about 38-40 seconds)
5 sets of (2x150m + 300m) at mile (or 30 sec and 60 sec reps)
5 x 0.75 mi @ LT + 6 x 150m

and so on from there. Daniels never has you do more than 120 seconds at near mile pace. His 3k (or VO2max) pace is Daniels I pace and is typically done in equal rest to run ratio and no more than 5 minutes in a single rep. I did two hard workouts per week on Tuesday and Friday. Eventually the plan moved to three hard days per week in about 6-7 weeks time. That's about when I got injured, and I think it was because three hards per week was just too much for me to handle. In terms of peaking, I'd say I did so in about 7 weeks time. So between the 6 week endurance block and 7 week mile pacing, it took me about 13 weeks to reach peak fitness. But I only shaved off about 8-10 second per mile in the last five weeks or so. I was essentially there from the start and it was just about sharpening the sword.

My advice is to really make sure you stretch those hamstrings out because the mile was extremely taxing on them for me. So standing with my feet back and leaning down onto my kitchen countertops with my body was a really good upper hamstring stretch. And secondarily, putting my feet up on the wall and stretching my hamstrings vertically for a lower hamstring stretch.

*Like this for the upper hamstring. It took pressure off my back to do it this way.

View attachment 565867

*Like this both I did both legs upwards. I do that for 30 seconds and then separate my legs into a V for another 30 seconds. I do this very gently while massaging the hamstring area near my knee. Just don't overstretch it and pop it. This is where I can feel little hamstring bundles on the back of my legs.

View attachment 565865

Thanks Billy!!!

I know it's a big switch from a 50k to a mile but I'm trying to find something to keep me going and fill in the time that Donna can't run with me.

https://www.amazon.com/Daniels-Running-Formula-Jack-Tupper/dp/1450431836
Is this the Daniel's book you speak of?
 
Is this the Daniel's book you speak of?

That's the one. It's one of my most referenced running books I have in my library. Just a wealth of good information. The one hard part is the plans are very very math heavy and are not simple to follow. So it does take a bit of work to understand it. And read the whole book because there are rules and such on how to execute the plan, so simply looking at the plan could lead you down a path he didn't intend for you to take.
 

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