Need opinions: Teens sporting question

[Hrhpd]

Unless you live near a state border, IMO, your state laws are too draconian. IMO, if you can prove residency (utility bill, etc) in the district, you should be allowed to attend that school (and play sports there). Now, maybe if you moved from a neighboring district, sit out a year, but if you moved for more than 1-2 hours away, there should be no limitations.

No, actually, the rules protect all schools from the wealthier districts recruiting and paying families to move into the district to get their top athletes. If the athletes can't play for a year, the incentive to cherry pick your athletes from around the state and even out of state goes way down. Most states have similar rules. Just google high school sports and sitting out a year.

 

[Hrhpd]

The thing is, the coaches don’t have to recruit. Everyone knows the best programs and they just go to them.

And that is exactly why many states have the same rules our state does about having to sit out if you try to move into a "better" sports district. The wealthier school districts have been known to "help" families move into their district to get their athletes.

If I recall, you live in Mississippi? They have pretty strict eligibility rules about transferring and eligibility. So, no, in your state, you cannot just up and move to get on a better team.

https://www.misshsaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/2017-18-MHSAA-Handbook-Upldated-Final.pdf

Here is court case in Mississippi about athlete eligibility that is still ongoing and the athlete is now in college:

https://www.hattiesburgamerican.com...11/22/mshaa-rules-student-transfers/19428567/

 

[luvsJack]

And that is exactly why many states have the same rules our state does about having to sit out if you try to move into a "better" sports district. The wealthier school districts have been known to "help" families move into their district to get their athletes.

If I recall, you live in Mississippi? They have pretty strict eligibility rules about transferring and eligibility.

https://www.misshsaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/2017-18-MHSAA-Handbook-Upldated-Final.pdf

Well they do not enforce them then!

I personally know three boys whose parents rented a house to get them in one district. They played the year they moved in. The school they went to was only 10-12. 7-9 goes to a different school. They moved in their sophomore year not sure if that makes a difference.

Another parent gave her mother “educational custody” (her words, I didn’t even know it was a thing) so her son could go to the school with one of the top programs in the state.

And another parent I know bought a house in a more desirable district. Her son played the year he transferred.

The school my kids went to is a stand alone school district. Meaning it’s the only school in the district (has it’s own superintendent and school board), it’s open to anyone in the county. And when originally built was intended to accept students that had trouble in other schools because they had dorms these students could live in. That presents a bit of a loophole for players that get put off other teams for discipline issues. They may have closed it since the dorms no longer exist. But the way the school is set up, it pretty much makes it open to transferring.

It’s not just baseball. Students move in to our high school every year and play football as soon as they transfer.

I didn’t read the link you posted (sorry way to much to read and it doesn’t apply to me or mine anymore). But I do know that these things are going on.

I don’t know of any schools helping parents. Of the ones I know, the parent paid.

 

[NHdisneylover]

No, actually, the rules protect all schools from the wealthier districts recruiting and paying families to move into the district to get their top athletes. If the athletes can't play for a year, the incentive to cherry pick your athletes from around the state and even out of state goes way down. Most states have similar rules. Just google high school sports and sitting out a year.

I can see that side of the coin. On the other side it seems like it would place an unfair disadvantage on very low income students whose families may rent month to month and move often. Done kids would be I eligible every yesr through no fault of their own.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

^ That's not something I've ever heard of, or encountered, that I'm aware of. A few athletes I know went to private schools known to have good teams, or post-secondary schools, but not transferring districts in order to get onto better sports teams. So I wonder if this is one of these regional things. (Lol)

This is what I found for my state:

A student may not represent a school on any athletic team if he or she has not been a continuous member of a secondary school for at least two months preceding the contest, and has been issued a report card.

http://www.schtools.net/membersnew/documents/MIAA/GuidelinesCertifyingEligibility.pdf

 

[luvsJack]

^ That's not something I've ever heard of, or encountered, that I'm aware of. A few athletes I know went to private schools known to have good teams, or post-secondary schools, but not transferring districts in order to get onto better sports teams. So I wonder if this is one of these regional things. (Lol)

This is what I found for my state:

A student may not represent a school on any athletic team if he or she has not been a continuous member of a secondary school for at least two months preceding the contest, and has been issued a report card.

http://www.schtools.net/membersnew/documents/MIAA/GuidelinesCertifyingEligibility.pdf

Lol could be. Could be a “around here” thing. But it happens.

Had one group of boys that got caught doing something at school. They didn’t get expelled but they did get put off the baseball team. All good players that ds had played with before high school.

At that time, the school about 30 miles from them had a great program. So their parents got them in school there and when the season started, they were playing.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Lol could be. Could be a “around here” thing. But it happens.

Had one group of boys that got caught doing something at school. They didn’t get expelled but they did get put off the baseball team. All good players that ds had played with before high school.

At that time, the school about 30 miles from them had a great program. So their parents got them in school there and when the season started, they were playing.

Maybe that explains why school sports here are very strict with rules, and most serious athletes pay attention. They wind up missing school games, not just moving somewhere else, and it hurts them. One of DS's teammates in their senior year of HS was caught drinking and wound up missing the first six or eight games of the season. By that time, his starting "spot" was gone, and he never got it back. The year wound up being a bust for him, pretty much. Others see that, and tend to keep their noses pretty clean. (As a pp noted, above, I think the OP.)

 

[luvsJack]

Maybe that explains why school sports here are very strict with rules, and most serious athletes pay attention. They wind up missing school games, not just moving somewhere else, and it hurts them. One of DS's teammates in their senior year of HS was caught drinking and wound up missing the first six or eight games of the season. By that time, his starting "spot" was gone, and he never got it back. The year wound up being a bust for him, pretty much. Others see that, and tend to keep their noses pretty clean. (As a pp noted, above, I think the OP.)

Oh yeah I agree. I didn’t agree with what the parents did or the other coach allowing them to play at all. But it happened and I am sure it’s happened more than once.

OTOH, ds did keep his nose clean due to playing ball. He didn’t want to jeopardize his spot on the team at his high school. He worked hard for it and he aimed to keep it.

Dd was the same way with choir. Any time she was even invited to a party with drinking she would say “Director will kill me!”

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I wrote this last night but didnt get around to posting it. Maybe it's relevant to the current discussion, but primarily addresses why we use club or private teams.

Oh sorry. If a baseball player lives in a district that has a weaker baseball program, parents will rent or purchase property to get the player in the district they want them in. Property and rent is high in those districts and of course they keep their original house too. Some try to just do it by their district releasing them and paying tuition for the out of district school but it’s hard to do that for baseball.

Wow. I have never heard of that (after 16-17 years involved in baseball)! I think the way sports are run are very different from place to place. I'm not even going to say regionally, because even within our region, things are run a little differently from city to city, town to town, school to school, etc. Where I live, things are not run well, and the few fields we have aren't in great shape. They haven't been kept up or improved. And instruction is almost nil. I was in another place last week for a game. I had the chance to walk around their field complex and it made me so happy - every field was in use on a Sunday night, multiple coaches were out with various age groups practicing and instructing, people were made to feel welcome there with bathrooms, flowers, poop bags for dogs, nice seating, friendly signage, etc. (If people live in a place like this, they should feel so fortunate! And take advantage of it!)

But this is why a lot of players from my area went to private teams (in addition to community play). If they wanted to learn the game, get better at it, and play on fields where they wouldn't get hurt, they had to! There, they had quality instruction, growth, and good competition on safe fields. If we could've gotten away with simply staying within our own community, we would've. But having a child who wanted to learn and improve his play in that sport, we had little choice. A lot of places around us weren't much better, either, so changing schools wasn't an option unless DS went to private school, and DS was happy where he was as far as school went, so we would not have rocked that boat.

There is often, as there has been here, talk of paying money for private leagues in striving for a sports scholarship, etc. Our main objective was simply a better experience, and that's what we got. (And costs in our area were very affordable; to us, a good value.) DS is playing for the love of the game in college, with no scholarship money involved, so he's not hampered by fear of losing money or having to change schools, OR delusions of making it to the big leagues; he's simply enjoying the experiences he's having and has been having all these years. He considers being an NCAA athlete part of his college experience, and we feel it's a good one to have, for reasons much like what NotUrsula spelled out:

Members of Synchro Teams are not trying to become professional athletes or even stars; they are mostly anonymous & do this because they love skating and want to do it at a fairly high competitive level; they also like spending time with other people who want the same thing. The girls spend so many hours together and depend on one another for safety so much that after a few seasons they form a lifelong bond, and all of those hours on the ice and in gyms and on buses and in hotel rooms together, (plus the academic requirements) tend to keep them pretty focused; they simply don't have time to get into too much trouble. (Also, you would not believe the fitness of these athletes. Not only do they have excellent stamina and flexibility, but their strength is enormous

This is it! DS loves being part of his team, and he's made so many friends in his sport. Those contacts will be great to have as he moves on after college and into his livelihood. He's getting to do some coaching and that will help build his resume, too. But none of this would've really been possible had he not chosen to go with a private team - going back to what HopperFan said about club teams:

High School teams are pride only, club teams are what matters.

From what I've seen, private, or club, teams, have gained popularity immensely in the last 15 years or so. People have their reasons for joining them, and many may simply be because, like ours, communities' money for good local teams has dried up, idk. Perhaps the tide will turn if the local economies change and new people come on board who recognize a need and make things happen for the better (as seems to sort of/finally be happening in my community).

Do sports because they LOVE the sport no matter what! Success comes on many levels.

Very true!

I'm sorry if you mentioned this, LuvsJack, I can't remember - are club teams popular where you live? Or do players mainly stick with school/community associated teams? If it's the latter, that might help explain some of the differences in how things go where we each live.

 

[tvguy]

Are there even "clubs" for those sports? Around here, the same emphasis is placed on the club team for basketball, soccer, baseball, and softball. I'm sure college coaches go to watch a basketball player at HS, but I'm not sure that would be their first look. They've probably seen these kids play at club tournaments.

Someone ONLY playing HS and getting college offers? EXTREMELY rare around here if it ever happens.

With baseball, with the USSSA team I mentioned, the coach of that team was an assistant coach for a high school team. And this was very frustrated that scouts and College coaches would only come to the High School games. The coach felt the USSSA team was a better talent pool, and he could never get a straight answer when he asked.
I think far too many parents get their hopes up of scholarships if their kids play a sport and that may not be realistic

 

[Pea-n-Me]

With baseball, with the USSSA team I mentioned, the coach of that team was an assistant coach for a high school team. And this was very frustrated that scouts and College coaches would only come to the High School games. The coach felt the USSSA team was a better talent pool, and he could never get a straight answer when he asked.

When was that? Because things have changed a lot.

 

[tvguy]

When was that? Because things have changed a lot.

2000

 

[luvsJack]

I wrote this last night but didnt get around to posting it. Maybe it's relevant to the current discussion, but primarily addresses why we use club or private teams.

Wow. I have never heard of that (after 16-17 years involved in baseball)! I think the way sports are run are very different from place to place. I'm not even going to say regionally, because even within our region, things are run a little differently from city to city, town to town, school to school, etc. Where I live, things are not run well, and the few fields we have aren't in great shape. They haven't been kept up or improved. And instruction is almost nil. I was in another place last week for a game. I had the chance to walk around their field complex and it made me so happy - every field was in use on a Sunday night, multiple coaches were out with various age groups practicing and instructing, people were made to feel welcome there with bathrooms, flowers, poop bags for dogs, nice seating, friendly signage, etc. (If people live in a place like this, they should feel so fortunate! And take advantage of it!)

But this is why a lot of players from my area went to private teams (in addition to community play). If they wanted to learn the game, get better at it, and play on fields where they wouldn't get hurt, they had to! There, they had quality instruction, growth, and good competition on safe fields. If we could've gotten away with simply staying within our own community, we would've. But having a child who wanted to learn and improve his play in that sport, we had little choice. A lot of places around us weren't much better, either, so changing schools wasn't an option unless DS went to private school, and DS was happy where he was as far as school went, so we would not have rocked that boat.

There is often, as there has been here, talk of paying money for private leagues in striving for a sports scholarship, etc. Our main objective was simply a better experience, and that's what we got. (And costs in our area were very affordable; to us, a good value.) DS is playing for the love of the game in college, with no scholarship money involved, so he's not hampered by fear of losing money or having to change schools, OR delusions of making it to the big leagues; he's simply enjoying the experiences he's having and has been having all these years. He considers being an NCAA athlete part of his college experience, and we feel it's a good one to have, for reasons much like what NotUrsula spelled out:


This is it! DS loves being part of his team, and he's made so many friends in his sport. Those contacts will be great to have as he moves on after college and into his livelihood. He's getting to do some coaching and that will help build his resume, too. But none of this would've really been possible had he not chosen to go with a private team - going back to what HopperFan said about club teams:


From what I've seen, private, or club, teams, have gained popularity immensely in the last 15 years or so. People have their reasons for joining them, and many may simply be because, like ours, communities' money for good local teams has dried up, idk. Perhaps the tide will turn if the local economies change and new people come on board who recognize a need and make things happen for the better (as seems to sort of/finally be happening in my community).


Very true!

I'm sorry if you mentioned this, LuvsJack, I can't remember - are club teams popular where you live? Or do players mainly stick with school/community associated teams? If it's the latter, that might help explain some of the differences in how things go where we each live.

Honestly, no.

There is summer ball but for hs age, there isn’t much to it. They used to have American Legion teams that you had to be invited to play, no cost involved but good enough for an invite. Ds played for them. But I haven’t heard of one of those teams for awhile. It’s possible they are still around but not like they used to be.

Mostly they stay to their high school teams. Most of the coaches will form a summer ball team and they basically all just play each other or invite teams from somewhere else.

 

[sam_gordon]

No, actually, the rules protect all schools from the wealthier districts recruiting and paying families to move into the district to get their top athletes. If the athletes can't play for a year, the incentive to cherry pick your athletes from around the state and even out of state goes way down. Most states have similar rules. Just google high school sports and sitting out a year.

I understand why they do it. I just think it's extreme if someone moves from another state saying "you can't play". I'm not sure where the line should be, or how to police it.

 

[NotUrsula]

No worries; I love to talk about Synchro. I think it's the best discipline in figure skating for good mental health as well as physical fitness, so I want to support it and spread the word so that we can \get NCAA recognition for it -- so that Hockey doesn't hog all the college ice time. (These kids may be a little obsessed with their sport and spend a lot of money and effort on it, but I've never personally seen a kid's psyche in any way damaged by synchro.)

NotUrsula - is the mif and freestyle testing for synchro the same as individual figure skating or are they synchro specific? Do most skaters keep up with individual testing as well as synchro? Does synchro have college students, high school students, and younger all together. I know Theater on Ice separates by under/over 18.

The tests are all the same; standard USFS test series. Most synchro skaters concentrate on MIF and Dance tests, but there are quite a few who also keep up with their Freestyle levels as well.

The age levels depend on the competitive level of the teams; USFS created so many levels so as to allow new skaters to enter the sport older, so the open levels are very mixed age, but the so-called developmental levels (Formation, Beginner 1-2, Prelim and Pre-Juv have much tighter age limits. Of the IJS-level teams, Intermediate is the broadest range; anything under age 20 as long as you have passed Juv MIF; however, in practice, most competitive teams won't put anyone under age 12 on Intermediate, because of the height issue. I know of a club that once decided to field a USFS Intermediate team and left the age limit open; they had a young gifted skater make the team, but she was 2 feet shorter than everyone else, and she spent half the program with her skates literally off the ice, because she was being lifted by centrifugal force. Really broad height differences tend to hurt a program, so good coaches try to avoid that.

If you are interested, here is a PPT that USFS distributes to clubs for parent meetings; it's informative: https://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/Understanding SyS & Its Value for Parents.pdf

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Also, I want to make something clear: my DD is no kind of phenom. She's a very average skater who has to really bust her chops to make the teams that she does. Two seasons ago she got lazy about practice and got rewarded for that with a second year on her lower-level team, when most of her friends moved up to the next level. Last year her team coach sat us all down and told her that if she wanted to stay she needed to get serious, because the best use of her abilities would be on a somewhat higher-level team, and that the program wanted her on that team for the two years until she aged out, but that it was going to be a long shot for her to make it. She did make it, but by the skin of her teeth; she is on the ice playing catch-up as we speak. (She's a very social kid who is great about making friends, and the coaches like that about her because she helps bring the teams together, but her edges are inconsistent and her twizzles are kind of weak yet. However, she is very fast and has really good Spread Eagles and a decent 135, which doesn't hurt at this level, LOL.) We are sending her to camp at a college progam this summer to get her skills sharpened up for the challenge that this season will be for her.

Nancy, I'm sorry about your DD's push back to an Open team, but let me ask you, is she as broken up about it as you are? If that team competes USFS, she will still be with her friends at every competition except Nationals (assuming they get there.) When DD was held back, she groused about the earlier curfew and the childish program, but otherwise had just as much fun as always, and her coach made her a team leader, which gave her some semi-coaching duties on certain moves, which helped a lot. She knows what her weaknesses are and how she stacks up against other kids in the program, and she's good about putting the good of the team over her personal wants. DH & I do our best to leave her skating issues between her and her coach (because while we love the sport, too, we don't skate it, which makes us rank amateurs in her eyes.) Also, FWIW, we give our Senior recognition at our Holiday Show because that has the largest audience, so they are not in Synchro dresses when they receive it.

You are right about the learning experience at Porter; that's the biggest non-championship competition in the US. We only send our IJS teams to Porter; we don't send the younger ones because we don't want them too intimidated early on (& to reduce the travel budget). We actually had a lackluster season last year, worst in a long time, and our coaches are SUPER determined that that won't happen again. Lots of new rules, including mandatory individual practice logs.

Nancy, I'll send you a PM with more info about some of our club processes; maybe that will help.

PS: I'm not sure there is any skater that truly *likes* 135's , LOL.

(Edited to remove some details that were TMI.)

 

[Nancy O]

I have no clue why you tried to hide the gender of your child or the sport. As you can see, you get better, more focused advise like that from @NotUrsula and @clori once we have all the pertinent details.

Because it turns out NotUrsula and I are from the same state. Now I've spread some local skating drama that shouldn't have happened. I have no one else to blame but myself.

 

[Nancyg56]

Because it turns out NotUrsula and I are from the same state. Now I've spread some local skating drama that shouldn't have happened. I have no one else to blame but myself.

It happens. Frankly, I think that the conversation is pretty interesting and respectful, and is not as problematic as some others could be.

 

[Nancy O]

It happens. Frankly, I think that the conversation is pretty interesting and respectful, and is not as problematic as some others could be.

Bless you but I am going to go back and edit some posts.

 

[Nancyg56]

Bless you but I am going to go back and edit some posts.

I would as well, but I don't want you to think you compromised too much. I am not at all sure that the damage is what you are afraid of. And I also want to thank you for not getting all kinds of offended with the differences of opinions here. As someone on the outside looking in, the discussion is interesting, but as the person who is being discussed, well that is so much more personal, and you managed it with grace.

 

[clori]

@NotUrsula - spread eagle is one of my daughter's favorite moves and her twizzles are good. She looked up a 135 video and said no thanks. My daughter is not a naturally gifted skater but since she started high school got the desire/motivation to improve and has made major advancements for her. All of the coaches in the skating program have noticed the improvement and a judge at a high school competition even told dd she would get a most improved skater award if there was one (and dd doesn't typically win). DD starts college in the fall. She has met some of the skating team members. The school is a big division 1 hockey school but they have two rinks. Even though it is a club sport they are given 8 hours of early morning freestyle ice a week. I think that will have a group routine to perform at home hockey games. Some kids have a synchro background so perhaps they will throw in some beginner sychro into the routine but the competitions will be just freestyle and perhaps team.

We are just a rec program so the seniors get introduced at the yearly recital in March before their solo. The show is group songs with learn to skate USA groups and all skaters over a certain level get to do a solo. In terms of high school, the high school team is coached by a teacher from our high school. She personally gives out the US Figure Skating Achievement Certificate at senior awards night for all skaters from our school (which has been 1 senior a year for 3 years) though the sports director would if she couldn't make it. Our high school also gives the team a yearbook page, announces competitions and wins etc but the skating team doesn't count for most sports scholarship or for gym exemption. It is kind of funny that as soon as teachers who don't know my daughter hear her name they know she skates. As my youngest has met some high school teachers they hear her last name and immediately ask if she skates. She starts high school in the fall.

I just learned that USFS is officially ending test track the end of September and switching to the excel program. To me it looks the same but with some plus levels added. I'm thinking the plus levels are more for fun competitions but not sure. There were more changes that I noticed when they switched from basic skills to learn to skate USA. My younger daughter had a few moves that switched from higher level that she was on to a lower level than she was on so there was/is a bit of catch up work depending on skater's level.

@Nancy O I don't feel like you've spread drama and I think it has been handled well.