No Longer Affordable JMHO

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A day or two is not too bad. But a week of way overpriced food will drive more people off site.
The critical question that raises is why has that not happened? Folks have been waxing poetically about how grievously overpriced WDW is for at least fifteen years, and to some extent much longer. When in Year 1 someone says it is overpriced and that's going to drive people away, you scratch your beard (if you've got one) and say "Hmmm... maybe..." Year 2 you get a little more skeptical. What about after 15 years of the same assertion? :confused3
 
You as an individual of course are free to go elsewhere, but as long as enough people put their butts in those seats and pull out their wallets to pay what Disney is asking, your arguements will fall on deaf ears.

Unfortunately, this is pretty much spot on, and I think that means that things will stay more or less as they are for a while, at least. I'm choosing to eat in the restaurants in the parks less primarily to make my own trip more enjoyable, and I don't really have an expectation that Disney is going to change what it's doing on account of me and my family. There's certainly a tipping point, however, where people will start eating in the parks less, or stop coming entirely because the cost of the food makes the trip as a whole cost prohibitive.

Indeed, with the emphasis on the Disney Dining Plan, where you can see the cost of your meals up front, I wonder to what extent that has a chilling effect on people booking trips, or booking them as frequently as they otherwise would?
 
Indeed, with the emphasis on the Disney Dining Plan, where you can see the cost of your meals up front, I wonder to what extent that has a chilling effect on people booking trips, or booking them as frequently as they otherwise would?

I think your answer is more people will buy the dining plan. I do now when I go, because compared to cash prices it saves me a great deal of money. Once my twin girls turn ten, I'll have to work it out again, as my girls may not justify paying for an adult dining plan.

BY raising the prices for cash patrons, Disney makes the dining plan more attractive. Add to that the fact that in some cases you can get it for free, and it makes the average guest seem like staying on site is the way to go.
 
Why? I've learned that "has to" without data to back it up often results in a surprise when the data is analyzed. Nothing "has to". The second- and third-order ramifications of how things are are so interdependent with each other that they cannot be predicted solely by gut-feel.

And even that is ignoring that you're making some assumptions based on facts not in evidence.

One thing we all should have learned about Disney after being such careful observers of them for so long: They don't do anything carelessly.

Talk is cheap. Locals have to bring more money to the table than placating them would have cost, to justify addressing those complaints. There is "thickness" to that implication. It isn't enough for locals to be a valid market. It has to be much more lucrative to be worthwhile satisfying.

And again, that's still making some assumptions based on facts not in evidence.

And Disney knows all this, and has far better resources to track their progress in this regard than we do.

ITA: Both the claim and the counter-claim are equally valid and deserve equal attention and primacy.

I mentioned them because they were substantially worse than most WDW restaurants, and yet they make similar claims to the one's you're upset about Disney making.

Yeah, I knew you'd be all over me like white on bread because I have no facts to back up my musings. I still stand by these thoughts because I do believe there will be a point when people say enough. And I do believe that point is coming rather soon. Again, musing....no facts to back it up. An opinion....just like most that are voiced here.

The fact remains....the dining plan is filling restaurants. But people are grumbling about the cost. Just read these boards to see it. And yes, while we are a distinct minority of the attendance, we also have been among the most loyal WDW cheerleaders. When the cheerleaders stop waving the pompoms, I think the writing is on the wall. Again, no facts....mere musing. The worm will turn; hopefully WDW will see it before it becomes a freight train in a dark tunnel. I'll be watching....because, yes, I also own stock.

Our next trip to WDW won't be WDW....it'll be the Portofino at US/IOA, an offsite condo, or an offsite hotel. Our restaurant vacation dollars will be offsite for the most part. And that's okay. Maybe I'm too demanding or my expectations are too high. But I can live with that. I'm sure WDW can, too.
 


Yeah, I knew you'd be all over me like white on bread because I have no facts to back up my musings. I still stand by these thoughts because I do believe there will be a point when people say enough.
Who are you calling white? ;)

Seriously, I totally agree that there is a point that if ever reached would be when people say "enough". I'm sorry if that hasn't been clear. However: Do you really think Disney, of all companies, would allowing things to get anywhere near that far? They've got their finger on the pulse on America - I cannot imagine anyone could look at their business and say they don't. For good or ill there are several companies out there that are "like white on bread" when it comes to having a long-term history knowing precisely how to extract the very most amount of profit from the marketplace.
 
I think your answer is more people will buy the dining plan. I do now when I go, because compared to cash prices it saves me a great deal of money. Once my twin girls turn ten, I'll have to work it out again, as my girls may not justify paying for an adult dining plan.

BY raising the prices for cash patrons, Disney makes the dining plan more attractive. Add to that the fact that in some cases you can get it for free, and it makes the average guest seem like staying on site is the way to go.

You're totally correct. Pushing cash prices higher has pushed more people into the dining plan. I do think, however, that sooner or later people will walk away. The business model will wring every last bit of profit out of the restaurants. I do think (yes, Bicker, this is a supposition...no facts) that in the long run it's not sustainable nor is it wise. When you damage a five star name, it's very difficult to regain consumer confidence in the product without huge price concessions and heavy marketing. (Think Tylenol, Bicker). So we'll be watching the next phase in the business cycle. And we'll argue about the sustainability and feasibility of it.
 
As far as I know, the DDP food is not poisoned. :confused3

I do agree that things will change. However, the old business model isn't going to be the best one to adopt. Rather, the old business model was best in the past; the current business model is best in the present; and the best business model for the future is almost surely something different from both. Heck, for all we know, the best thing Disney could do is turn WDW into an all-inclusive-of-sorts. Or adopt a more a la carte system where everything is dirt cheap, but there are extra fees for every little thing. Or most likely - something none of us can think of right now.
 


Who are you calling white? ;)

Seriously, I totally agree that there is a point that if ever reached would be when people say "enough". I'm sorry if that hasn't been clear. However: Do you really think Disney, of all companies, would allowing things to get anywhere near that far? They've got their finger on the pulse on America - I cannot imagine anyone could look at their business and say they don't. For good or ill there are several companies out there that are "like white on bread" when it comes to having a long-term history knowing precisely how to extract the very most amount of profit from the marketplace.

I think they've lost their direction to be honest with you. In their efforts to maintain stock pricing, they've tricked out the pony (doncha love these archaic phrases) to maximize present profitability without worrying about the future. I believe brand loyalty is waning and people no longer look at WDW as the cutting edge of vacationing. There are just too many other imaginative offerings out there vying for family vacation dollars. In years past, upscale vacation resorts did not look to entertain the under 18 crowd. Now it's a huge market. Families can have it all....great resort, wonderful food, entertainment for their children.
 
In their efforts to maintain stock pricing, they've tricked out the pony (doncha love these archaic phrases) to maximize present profitability without worrying about the future.
Okay, now you've again gone beyond any reasonable interpretation of facts in evidence. The only basis I can see for such an assertion is a personal distaste for what they're doing, because there are no real indications that they are doing what you suggest. I think that's going to be the manner of it - there isn't really any sound basis for the criticisms - just antipathy.

I believe brand loyalty is waning
You've hit on something here. Brand loyalty is waning. It declined precipitously in the 1980s and was almost gone before I got out of the business in the mid-1990s. And that is absolutely having and going to continue to have an impact. However, note that the decline of brand loyalty is almost universal across the consumer marketplace, and has very little relationship to any specific business decisions that individual consumer-facing businesses make.

There are just too many other imaginative offerings out there vying for family vacation dollars.
Another absolutely on-target point. A lot of folks point to how great parts of USF is as "evidence" that WDW is doing poorly, and they don't even realize how ridiculous that implication is. Why is it so hard to understand that many different suppliers can excel?

And beyond that, for a lot of this stuff, the sharp increase in number of choices is absolutely going to have a (negative) impact on the quality of each choice, in the long-run, after the passion of trying to knock the other suppliers out of the marketplace fails. Competition prompts competitors to try to knock each other out of the market by excelling, and once that's successful or not successful, the owners of companies insist on the return on their investment, resulting in cost-cutting and consequent compromising of quality. Most suppliers who doggedly stick with a quality first attitude are killed off by a marketplace now dominated by a myopically cheap American consumer, or weakened so that they are subsumed into the more aggressive supplier, and the compromise in quality imposed that way.
 
My Disney trip is my one shot a year at "fine dining".

And herein lies a very big issue. For many people, their trip(s) to WDW are their "ultimate vacations". They expect everything to be perfect, and they look forward to "fine dining". And when you see the prices charged, you certainly expect fine dining. But with very small exception, it isn't. Really, folks. It just isn't. Fine dining requires precise kitchens that cook to order for very small numbers of diners. For that, you go to Victoria & Albert's. Or perhaps bluezoo, Il Mulino, Shula's, Wolfgang Puck upstairs, Bistro de Paris to name a few others. Below that are places that cook to order, but have really large dining rooms that put out good to very good food, but often miss on the "fine dining scale"? Jiko, California Grill, Citrico's come to mind. (For all the posters who remember fondly the California Grill in the 90's, do you remember the layout? When they doubled the size of the dining area, they halved the quality of the food. Simple formula. Too many diners equates to good, but not great food.)

So if you go to WDW to experience "fine dining", you had better stick to these level of restaurants. You cannot expect fine dining in a mess hall that serves 200 people at a time and is turning over tables every 45 minutes. Your pasta is not cooked to order. It is plated from a huge pot. Your sides are scooped out from vats. The scrambled eggs that eliza wants perfectly cooked are plated from a huge hotel pan sitting in a hot water bath. That is not, never was, and never will be "fine dining". All of the buffets and all of the character meals, and most of the theme park restuarants work this way. It is institutional dining designed to move people in and out. Much more akin to a wedding or banquet hall. Or maybe at the highest level, like the main dining room on a cruise ship. Why do cruise ships all have "upscale" dining rooms now for an extra fee? Because they recognize that when you try to serve 3,500 people dinner every night, it might be "good", but can never be "great". You want great? You go to the separate dining room. Limited number of diners with a kitchen staff prepping the food to order.

As for affordability, well, the highest level restaurants at WDW are not more expensive than their real world coounterparts. Todd English has many restaurants. Bluezoo is not more expensive than his other fine dining restaurants. Wolgang Puck upstairs is not more expensive than Postrio or Spago. Victoria & Albert's is cheaper than almost every other Mobil Five Star restaurant. Il Mulino in New York is more expensive than Il Mulino at WDW.

Where you really start to see the price difference is the mid-range restaurants. (I cannot put character meals into the discussion because they have no real-world counterpart. Just like the hot dog at Busch stadium is more expensive because you are watching Albert Pujols while you eat it. You cannot quantify that "experience" cost). 50's Prime Time Cafe is way more expensive than what you should have to pay for fried chicken and meatloaf. Yep. I get that. But is it affordable? No one is going to go broke ordering $16 fried chicken or $15 meatloaf. Would we like to pay less? Yes. Can we find like-quality food out on the road near our hometowns? Sure. But this is a vacation destination and that is what they charge. Is it out of line with other destination vacations? Well, spend a week skiing in Aspen or golfing at Pinehurst, or wine tasting in Napa Valley and you tell me. Maybe you will find WDW to be more. Maybe not. But if you do, I'll bet it isn't outrageously more. Ultimately, if the restaurants are full, then they are probably priced just about right.
 
I see the prices at '50's Prime Time as being very average for my area. I find them surprisingly low for WDW!
I'm in Panama City Beach, FL - a tourist destination. One of the favorite tourist spots is just a very casual restaurant on the beach. It has indoor and outdoor seating, nothing at all fancy. There are a couple of video games in the corner along with a couple of claw machines. That's the entertainment. Food is fair at best, IMHO.

Notice the prices: http://www.pwillys.com/Menus.html
 
This is such an interesting discussion, and I think it boils down to first/only timers and repeat visitors.

Based on Disney's practices as of late, they are marketing to the first/only timers more than repeat visitors. I really think in this respect, guests aren't going to complain about food or merchandise, for example, as they don't have anything Disney related in which to compare. Many first/only timers that I know, got the DP, as they were splurging on the trip, so since their travel agent recommended it, that is what they went with. They all thought the food was fabulous, and I suspect most first/only timers do think it's good. But if they don't, are they really going to complain? I hardly think so.

The other interesting part of the discussion is the repeat visitors. First there are the cash paying repeat non-DVC guests, many of whom are taking part in this discussion. What is their price threshold? Then there are the DVC members, which I, along with many other DVC members, feel that Disney takes us for granted. Disney really isn't marketing to us, especially us DVC members, as we have full kitchens in our villas, plus we get DVC dining discounts. But, DVC has negotiated with Disney for us to pay the same base DP cost throughout the year (no peak season DP price is applicable for us). But the best part is that we can stagger our dining plans for any nights we want, as well as any combination. That is interesting, in and of itself.

I really think first/only timers are splurging and so in order to afford the meals, they secure the DP. Brilliant marketing on Disney's part. Us repeat vistors though, especially those of us who pay cash, are seeing that prices are getting very high, especially for character meals, but again, Disney can charge premium prices, as it's a premium experience that isn't duplicated elsewhere.

For us, we've done it all in regards to dining, and can afford all of it, but we are at the point that we don't want to spend thousands of dollars each year on food. So, we have compromised on 2 meals in our villa, and 1 TS meal. Due the outrageous buffet costs during peak season, we are doing the DxDP for 2 nights of our 13 nights there, and this will allow us to spread 6 character meals over 4 days, and it's much cheaper than TIW, which we have been using the past 4 years. Sure there are other guests to take our place, but when I think of the thousands of dollars we've spent on Disney dining over the past 10 years, Disney is going to lose money since we aren't eating out for 2-3 TS meals per day as we have been doing - we are now averaging 1 TS meal per day (there are a few days with no TS meals, so these balance with the Dx days), and they are mostly non-character meals, which are much cheaper.

Great discussion, Tiger :)
 
But the best part is that we can stagger our dining plans for any nights we want, as well as any combination. That is interesting, in and of itself.

I have no idea what you mean by that. Care to explain? It might be something I've missed along the way.
 
I have no idea what you mean by that. Care to explain? It might be something I've missed along the way.

Well, it means that if you are staying for 5 nights, you could do something like this:

Day 1 - no DP

Day 2 - DxDP

Day 3 - QSDP

Day 4 - DP

Day 5 - no DP

All guests in room must purchase plan, and plan must be paid in full at time of booking - as DVC members, we must book by 48 hours before arrival. Plus, we pay the base DP rate, and are not subjected to the peak season DP price at all throughout the year.

Hope this helps, Tiger :)
 
jrtoasty said:
One example that I've used a couple of times on here was when some people in our party were hell bent on taking us all to Tutto Italia, but didn't bother to get ADRs for our party of 9 because they didn't understand how necessary they've become since their last visit.
I'm confused. The two aren't related, are they? Because the Dining Plan - and the accompanying need for reservations - predates Tutto Italia by a year or more. Unless you're referring to the overall need to plan ahead for sit-down dining now?
 
I'm confused. The two aren't related, are they? Because the Dining Plan - and the accompanying need for reservations - predates Tutto Italia by a year or more. Unless you're referring to the overall need to plan ahead for sit-down dining now?

I wonder if she means the sheer popularity of Tutto with the DP. Tutto is grossly overpriced, and so most guests I know, only eat there if they are on the DP, which then makes it extremely busy.

But, as you mentioned, you pretty much need to make ADRs, period, as the restaurants are so darn busy!

Tiger :)
 
This is such an interesting discussion, and I think it boils down to first/only timers and repeat visitors.
Yes, that's a good point, but...

Based on Disney's practices as of late, they are marketing to the first/only timers more than repeat visitors.
They are marketing to both first-time visitors and repeat-visitors. To understand that it is necessary to understand that marketing to a customer does not mean placating that customer, i.e., providing everything they want, the way they want it, and also letting the customer decide how much to pay. A first-time visitor has more intrinsic value based on the same logic that justifies loss-leaders in consumer product marketing. A customer who will only repeat as a customer if the offering is just marginally profitable (or worse, unprofitable) is often not worth pursuing. There are far more lucrative ways to use limited capital than chasing after pitiful profit margins. Perhaps those realities make it seem like Disney is only marketing to first-time visitors, when viewed from the perspective of customers who would repeat-visit only if the offering was rich in features and cheap in price.

Many first/only timers that I know, got the DP, as they were splurging on the trip, so since their travel agent recommended it, that is what they went with. They all thought the food was fabulous, and I suspect most first/only timers do think it's good.
Since human taste buds don't suddenly change when you leave Orlando for the first time, any significant difference in the perception of the quality of the food between first-time visitors and return visitors is almost surely attributable to the return visitors becoming jaded.

Then there are the DVC members, which I, along with many other DVC members, feel that Disney takes us for granted.
Not I. Many of us DVC members understand the promises Disney made to us, and recognize that they fulfill those promises and then some. Again, I think there is something to be said about how for some folks familiarity breeds contempt.
 
Originally Posted by jrtoasty
One example that I've used a couple of times on here was when some people in our party were hell bent on taking us all to Tutto Italia, but didn't bother to get ADRs for our party of 9 because they didn't understand how necessary they've become since their last visit.
I'm confused. The two aren't related, are they? Because the Dining Plan - and the accompanying need for reservations - predates Tutto Italia by a year or more. Unless you're referring to the overall need to plan ahead for sit-down dining now?

I guess I'm kinda referring to the whole thing. The food at Tutto Italia was mediocre, but the fact that we had to jump through hoops to eat there just added to the disappointment. I probably would have been a lot less down on the place if we didn't have to rearrange our whole touring schedule to eat there. Part of that is attributable to our travelling companions' failure to plan ahead -- we had made reservations elsewhere (Kouzzina), which were nixed on account of being too "weird" -- but I guess the point is that the experience did not justify the hassle associated with it.

Our next trip to Disney is in a little over 6 months from today. To be able to eat when we want, where we want, that means I basically have to decide where we're going to want to eat and start making our dining reservations a few days from now. Given the quality of the food I'll be eating over a half a year from now, that is freakin' bananas. I like to plan ahead, but come on, bounds of reason.
 
Yes, that's a good point, but...

They are marketing to both first-time visitors and repeat-visitors. To understand that it is necessary to understand that marketing to a customer does not mean placating that customer, i.e., providing everything they want, the way they want it, and also letting the customer decide how much to pay. A first-time visitor has more intrinsic value based on the same logic that justifies loss-leaders in consumer product marketing. A customer who will only repeat as a customer if the offering is just marginally profitable (or worse, unprofitable) is often not worth pursuing. There are far more lucrative ways to use limited capital than chasing after pitiful profit margins. Perhaps those realities make it seem like Disney is only marketing to first-time visitors, when viewed from the perspective of customers who would repeat-visit only if the offering was rich in features and cheap in price.

Nope, not what I mean at all. I don't want anything for free, nor do I buy cheap quality stuff - I'm the kind of person who will pay more for good quality stuff. My house is full of furniture that is made in Canada or US. It cost me thousands upon thousands of dollars to do so, but we feel it's important to support North American, and the quality is outstanding. So, this is not what I was referring to. I am referring to actual marketing itself - look at the commercials, posters, read the literature, etc. They are clearly first time visitors - as I said, most of the first timers I know, splurged on their trips, as they really only planned on going to Disney 1x, and so they get the dining plan and spend on other extras. I will agree with you that my family is a more pitiful profit margin for them on a regular basis - except when I spent thousands to purchase my DVC membership. Anyway, Disney makes far more profit on these families than they do mine, as we don't buy much merchandise at all, and we eat 2 meals in our villa. :thumbsup2

Since human taste buds don't suddenly change when you leave Orlando for the first time, any significant difference in the perception of the quality of the food between first-time visitors and return visitors is almost surely attributable to the return visitors becoming jaded.

What does this have to do with anything? I'm not talking about repeat visitors - if food is cold, it's cold. If a server forgets beverages and you have to bus your own table, that's not good service. It's not about taste buds changing...it's about how a guest reacts to their dining experience. I have seen it and heard it from many of the people whom I have planned trips for, that they thought the food was outstanding, and the few who thought it wasn't, didn't complain, as they were so enamoured with their trip. So, I am not referring to repeat vistors becoming jaded, but the reaction of the first timers to their meals. Even if the food was not to their liking, none of them made a fuss at all. It's not about their tastebuds changing, as much as how they react to the food that they are presented. In my experience with all of the first timers who I have planned trips for, they thought everything was fabulous, and when they mentioned crowded restaurants or cold food, they thought this was the way it was supposed to be as it's a busy place.

Not I. Many of us DVC members understand the promises Disney made to us, and recognize that they fulfill those promises and then some. Again, I think there is something to be said about how for some folks familiarity breeds contempt.

So, are you assuming that I don't understand as a DVC member how it works? I absolutely understand the promises that DVC made to me- and that is for accommodations only; therefore, when I have issues with food or merchandise, I don't complain to Member Services, but to Disney. But, I have had issues with DVC housekeeping, and DVC Member Services, reservations, etc., and those I take up with DVC. I have no contempt towards DVC at all, but I see with DVC in some areas, the same practices that many companies utilize towards their most loyal customers - you do whatever you have to do to get them in the door, and once they sign up, you step away. You got their money, so on to the next guest. The problem with this, is that as DVC members we can sell our memberships, and never step on property again, and this costs them money. So, for the most part, they do a good job, but in some areas, like communication, website, changing point charts, they need major work, and these areas are tipping points for some members, and they have sold their memberships because of it. It takes good balance, and sometimes, Disney's balance is off in this regard. They are marketing to all guests to become DVC members, yet they are now at a point where there may be too many members - housekeeping is suffering in some areas, and MS is overwhelmed at times. How are they going to improve?

There are some areas where DVC seriously dropped the ball in regards to communicating to members, member handbook, etc. They messed up, and their reactions and solutions towards us members was very patrionizing. I do believe that Disney does take us for granted in certain areas. Do you actually visit the DVC boards? You'll see some serious ball dropping examples. I for one, have had several issues over the years, not many at all, and most of them were handled well, but a few, were handled horribly with patronizing attitudes and a total taken for granted approach. I have pretty low expectations of DVC - clean rooms, good attitude at MS, up to date point charts, great website, for example, and so most of the time, they deliver, but sometimes they do not, and so it's not contempt at all, but just a desire to make sure that DVC runs efficiently and smoothly, and when it does not, I want to make sure they handle member concerns in a positive way, as that benefits all of us. :)

Thanks, Tiger :)
 
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