NYT op-ed video on DL living wage

Companies do not just store their money up in large money bins like Uncle Scrooge to swim around in.

They use the money they make to GROW their business (employing more people).
Their "fat cat" CEOs spend their money on luxury items (that employs more people --- someone gets paid to make a yacht).


That's just simple supply and demand. Disney is at high demand, so they raise prices to what the market bears. We all (on here) keep EASILY paying those prices, so they keep going up.

And what have they done with that money from the increased prices? Burned it? No. They have expanded their parks (paying construction workers to build SWGE, and eventually hire tons more cast members to work in the new land), they have created tons of fun movies yearly (which gives jobs to more people in the movie industry).

It simply comes down to two economic philosophies - socialism/communism (where the government controls wages and prices) and capitalism.
I'm pretty sure I like how capitalism works .. socialism hasn't done very well because it reduces the "greed" of capitalism .. and the "greed" of capitalism is what spurs people to work harder and spur innovation.

If the government just up and gave me a few dollar/hour raise .. I don't think I would work any harder than I did the day before.

It is a good debate and there is a solution there somewhere .. maybe not as black/white as we all think.

See, it doesn't. Right now, we don't have true capitalism anyway, but more a government-sponsored one which encourages large oligopolies over small businesses (in fact, even if you hate the current president, the rollback of regulations left and right will do more than anything else in the last few decades to start to level the business playing field between big and little than anything "done" by the government could do). And large oligopolies (at least public ones) are much more reliant on the market and are much more able to use their large corporate power to lobby government for things favorable to them (like unlimited visas or onerous tax requirements that little companies could never meet) and to force employees (and customers) to take what they give b/c there are so few options in that industry.

So many times people post black and white when it comes to economics, but most times, it's always a grey...and we're trying to move the grey more favorably to employees and customers right now b/c the pendulum has been too far towards the company profits for the last 1-2 decades...

Now, does that mean the government should mandate a living wage. No. As I mentioned above, the best thing the government can usually do is level the playing field for businesses and make them compete with each other for limited resources (which people are becoming, thanks to the current policies)...
 
Companies are not going to pay "living wages" by dipping in to their profits, they will raise their prices and we will pay. Then that living wage just becomes nothing more than what the current minimum wage is now. That IS the big picture.
Anyone with a high school level understanding of economics should know that. You can put an emotional spin on it, but it is what it is.
Entry level jobs were never intended to be a living wage. They are stepping stone jobs. We all wish cast members could make more money but to do that they have to get a promotion or go find a job that pays more.
 
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The spark behind the NYT article was whether the municipality should be giving Disney a tax break. Or, if it should use variable tax rates to compel Disney to do things that the voters and politicians are in favor of.

That's an interesting issue. On the one hand, a fair tax rate makes for a level playing field. No sacred cows.

On the other hand ... does Anaheim have a bloated administration and are its tax rates actually justified? I don't know, but if they're anything like the city where I live, the municipal spending and debt levels are probably out of control with all sorts of ruinous boondoggles lurking in the city budget.

If the municipality really cared about the prosperity of private-sector workers then they should cut spending and cut taxes across the board. Workers pay property taxes too, one way or another. Give the minimum-wage workers and their employers like Disney corp a property tax cut.

I know, I know ... doesn't fit the "nasty corporation must be punished" theme!!! But what the hey, I said it anyways.
 
It's more. But I knew I couldn't raise a family checking lap bars. Too bad.



So what happens when everyone becomes as "smart" as you are? What happens to WalMart, Disney, etc?

I'll save you a google. There aren't enough higher paying positions to absorb everyone. People have to take the lower paying jobs. Now that that is clear (hopefully), you can probably see the argument for helping them out. Or at least shifting the responsibility from society to the corporation.

It's a little deeper than knowing you can't raise a family "checking lap bars". Or at least it should be...
 


It's more. But I knew I couldn't raise a family checking lap bars. Too bad.

So what happens when everyone becomes as "smart" as you are? What happens to WalMart, Disney, etc?

I'll save you a google. There aren't enough higher paying positions to absorb everyone. People have to take the lower paying jobs. Now that that is clear (hopefully), you can probably see the argument for helping them out. Or at least shifting the responsibility from society to the corporation.

It's a little deeper than knowing you can't raise a family "checking lap bars". Or at least it should be...

I think this is the crux of the discussion ... clearly there are jobs that need to get done that don't require a PHD or anything, and so what should people that want to work those jobs or are best able to work those jobs be paid? I think most think they shouldn't still be in poverty, but should it be enough on it's own to raise an entire family? Or should it be part of a family's income and that people should be motivated if they want to fully support their family to work towards a better paying job?

I think there is some place in the middle where people can not be in poverty and live in dignity if they are working a full time job - no matter what that job is - but still reward people that do get additional education/training/etc.

Ideally, do I think the focus wouldn't be on the starting/entry level pay but more once you prove yourself as a valuable member of the team/company and have completed your initial training, etc. In the specific case of Disney, when you start out and get trained by them and now have something for your resume, there are additional benefits you are getting (and Disney is providing) that should also be contemplated in your total compensation, but then I think Disney needs to ensure they pay their proven CMs that add to the positive experience of their guests and have completed the training, etc. enough to keep them long term
 
I think this is the crux of the discussion ... clearly there are jobs that need to get done that don't require a PHD or anything, and so what should people that want to work those jobs or are best able to work those jobs be paid? I think most think they shouldn't still be in poverty, but should it be enough on it's own to raise an entire family? Or should it be part of a family's income and that people should be motivated if they want to fully support their family to work towards a better paying job?

I think there is some place in the middle where people can not be in poverty and live in dignity if they are working a full time job - no matter what that job is - but still reward people that do get additional education/training/etc.

Ideally, do I think the focus wouldn't be on the starting/entry level pay but more once you prove yourself as a valuable member of the team/company and have completed your initial training, etc. In the specific case of Disney, when you start out and get trained by them and now have something for your resume, there are additional benefits you are getting (and Disney is providing) that should also be contemplated in your total compensation, but then I think Disney needs to ensure they pay their proven CMs that add to the positive experience of their guests and have completed the training, etc. enough to keep them long term

That's a good point. There definitely is more to it than just "starting pay needs to be X" and that's it.

I agree with how you lay it out. There should be a progression that everyone has the opportunity to go through. Not the progression of 20 employees but 1 or 2 can become management and make a living wage. A progression where all 20 once trained and proven can make the living wage. And by living wage, I believe it should be enough where a single person does not need subsidies to live.

And I'm glad you brought up the PhD jobs and such. Another inconvenient fact that is often ignored is that not everyone has the same skill set. To be more specific, not everyone has the same IQ, or opportunities (gasp!). Not everyone has the same physical abilities. There are life circumstances that may dictate that someone works these lower paid positions, or positions that do not require advanced training. There is no shame in letting these people make enough to not have to take government assistance. But, again, if we are all in favor of a plan where they "deserve" minimum wage at $8 or whatever, then why can't we favor a plan where the corporation pays for and issues the SNAP and Section 8 benefits? Why are we propping up capitalism with socialism, since socialism is so evil?
 
That's a good point. There definitely is more to it than just "starting pay needs to be X" and that's it.

I agree with how you lay it out. There should be a progression that everyone has the opportunity to go through. Not the progression of 20 employees but 1 or 2 can become management and make a living wage. A progression where all 20 once trained and proven can make the living wage. And by living wage, I believe it should be enough where a single person does not need subsidies to live.

And I'm glad you brought up the PhD jobs and such. Another inconvenient fact that is often ignored is that not everyone has the same skill set. To be more specific, not everyone has the same IQ, or opportunities (gasp!). Not everyone has the same physical abilities. There are life circumstances that may dictate that someone works these lower paid positions, or positions that do not require advanced training. There is no shame in letting these people make enough to not have to take government assistance. But, again, if we are all in favor of a plan where they "deserve" minimum wage at $8 or whatever, then why can't we favor a plan where the corporation pays for and issues the SNAP and Section 8 benefits? Why are we propping up capitalism with socialism, since socialism is so evil?

Fully agree that in an ideal world everyone would get paid a living wage because companies feel compelled to do it on their own due to competition, etc. - but unfortunately it is not an ideal world and there is already some meddling (for lack of a better word) from the government and so it needs to be balanced and (hopefully) directed in the right ways

Also in a perfect capitalistic market companies would be valued on more than just their profits - that if a company paid their employees better that would be viewed as adding more to the larger market and those companies would be valued higher than companies who didn't even if the firsts profits were lower - but we aren't there either

One thing that isn't covered much in this thread is that Disney has also started a program to cover the college expenses for CMs (online only for now) - I think things like that are great and hope that the CMs that maybe aren't making a full on "living wage" take advantage of that
 
On the other hand ... does Anaheim have a bloated administration and are its tax rates actually justified? I don't know, but if they're anything like the city where I live, the municipal spending and debt levels are probably out of control with all sorts of ruinous boondoggles lurking in the city budget.

If the municipality really cared about the prosperity of private-sector workers then they should cut spending and cut taxes across the board. Workers pay property taxes too, one way or another. Give the minimum-wage workers and their employers like Disney corp a property tax cut.

I know, I know ... doesn't fit the "nasty corporation must be punished" theme!!! But what the hey, I said it anyways.

Can help but weigh in on this being a former reporter on state and local government.

One person's government waste is another person's much-needed program. Roads, infrastructure, schools, police and fire services are not free. The people performing those services are doing their job, not stealing money out of your pocket. And in a town of 336,000 people like Anaheim, with parks which attracted more than 27 million visitors in 2017, those are substantial costs that you can't just slash without a thought.

The definition of waste in the eye of the beholder. You may argue Anaheim's city manager doesn't deserve to make $300,000 per year or the police chief shouldn't be paid $251,000. But cutting their salaries isn't guaranteed to make anyone else in the city more prosperous.

Cutting property taxes doesn't help minimum wage workers. They very, very likely don't own land and their landlords aren't going to lower rents after a property tax cut either. You should also read up on how California's old Prop 13 means Disney has underpaid for the property it owns, which pushes the tax burden onto someone else: https://www.ocregister.com/2010/06/03/disneyland-businesses-enjoy-prop-13-loopholes-study-says/

Corporations are not inherently evil. Disney's responsibility, as it is with most publicly-traded companies these days, is to maximize shareholder value. That includes keeping costs low and profits high and using your clout when you can to get better deals. It is no radical suggestion, however, for people to expect compromise between corporations like Disney and the municipalities they serve, not just the former dictating to the latter a bunch of take-it-or-leave-it deals which may not be in the city's best interest.
 
Disneyland CMs deserve a much higher pay than WDW employees. Cost of Living in the greater Los Angeles/Orange County area is much, much higher than Orlando area. That is just a fact. Everyone around here gets paid more: teachers, police, nurses, firefighters, sanitation workers, etc. Entry level salaries for new teachers around here is just about $60K.

IMO, Disneyland CMs deserve in the neighborhood of $18-20/hr, which is just enough to make ends meet here. WDW employees can get away with $15/hr for now, but I am afraid by the time they finally get thier $15, they will need more, because Orlando is booming.

Disney has no excuse for not paying their CMs enough to not have to have 2 or 3 jobs or live with roommates for the rest of their lives. They make enough money. Working for Disney as an hourly CM makes it quite difficult to have another job. They require essentially open availability and the schedules are often crazy, and different week to week. How are you supposed to have another job?
 
Workers are valuable. It's not only the top people that make a company successful but all of the workers contribute. There should be some sense of loyalty to employees rather that this current trend of seeing so many of them as disposable.

CEO's do deserve good pay if the company is successful and so do stockholders. I suspect that there is plenty to go around at companies like Disney.
 
One person's government waste is another person's much-needed program. Roads, infrastructure, schools, police and fire services are not free. The people performing those services are doing their job, not stealing money out of your pocket.

Those are the things that people WISH their municipal government would concentrate on. Sadly, in my municipality they also waste many, many millions of dollars on what are can only be described as boondoggles. Extremely wasteful things that I would describe as "cadillac" and "taj mahal" projects that have more to do with politicians' and bureaucrats' prestige and with apparently corrupt crony-contract deals than with any vital municipal service.

And frankly, many municipal governments have salaries, benefits and especially pensions that are far ... far ... far out of whack with similar private sector jobs. Where I come from, getting a full time job in the municipal government is like winning the lottery. The jobs are so highly desirable that nearly every person I know of who "won" the job owed it to nepotism or other forms of favoritism. And I don't know a single person who doesn't have a full-time government job who has a pension plan that is anywhere near adequate, or often a pension plan of any kind.

Not sure about Anaheim specifically but I've read lots of news stories about municipalities across the USA and in California that are virtually bankrupt (or will be) from having made commitments to pension payouts which ... although they might not be considered overly generous to the recipients ... are undreamed of by the average ratepayer who is expected to top up the pension plan shortfalls.

This is what Disney and Disney employees are up against ... as I see it ...
 
There are a number of issues here and it is very complex. One thing mentioned earlier I think doesn't get mentioned enough. Wages are only a part of how much an employee costs a business. Where I used to work, when hiring decisions were made, the total employee cost was budgeted at roughly 2x the salary (or wages) of the position. You also need to incorporate benefits into an employee's total compensation package. My former employer used to offer no premiums on their health insurance for employees. At that time, hardly anyone left the company. Changes in health care law changed a number of those dynamics, so now, premiums are about what everyone else pays, however, salaries were increased. Now, the company has a much harder time keeping employees.

Also, I have other family members that run a small business. It is hard for them to grow, because if they get to a certain amount of employees, then they would be required under the law to provide greatly increased benefits. To them it is a catch-22, because if they expand, then their costs would go up to a degree to which they would be then forced in turn to reduce the workforce, so their solution is to stay put where they are at. Meanwhile, large companies (some in the same industry) can absorb those benefit increases due to their economies of scale. An unintended by-product of that legislation, but a very real one. Just an example of how "well-meaning" legislation can sometimes have unintended effects.

I tend to side on the free-market side of things, but I think that the government itself, through legislation that favors certain industries, causes inequalities in the market and it doesn't function efficiently (aka "Crony Capitalism"). So, then you get the after effects of this and what you hear from people is to create more government "solutions" to fix the problems that the last government "solution" created. In effect, it limits competition, and what we really want is healthy competition.

A number of posters here have stated that CM's can't move because they may not have certain skill sets, but that is not necessarily true. When Universal opened in Orlando, it hired a number of former Disney employees and paid them better (and by "paid", I mean their whole compensation package, not just "wages"). That forces Disney into a decision. Pay more to keep employees, or continue to go how they were and continue to lose some of their better employees. That competition also benefits consumers as well as the two continue to build new attractions, in part, to try to entice the tourist dollar to visit their location as opposed to their competitor. In this sense, both consumers and employees are scarce resources (not infinite), so the demand should drive what the market should bear not only in revenue, but also in terms of compensation.

However, the whole problem with all of this is that nothing happens in a vacuum, so if you change the dynamics one place, you can't assume that everything else will remain the same. One problem I have with some of the wage arguments is the argument that these large companies may be able to pay more, so they should. The problem with that is that if you then enforce, say a large minimum wage increase, Disney or Universal may indeed be able to absorb those increases, however, the Small Business owner of a hotel or restaurant out on 192 who is operating on extremely thin margins (everyone always wants to discuss revenue that companies make, but no one ever wants to discuss costs it seems...) will be disproportionately impacted by the increased costs that they will now incur. So, they are left with a choice: A) increase the cost to customers to cover the increased costs that they incur (inflation) or B) decrease the workforce and hope to increase productivity maintaining a similar cost structure. If most small businesses choose option A, then costs overall increase and the by-product of that is that the now-increased wages that the workers that have the increase find that their spending power is decreased and the cycle starts all over again.

I was in Seattle last year and went into a Subway (the one by the Hilton). They wanted $10 for a footlong Ham and Cheese sub. Here in Alabama, that same sub is $4.99. I got into a discussion with someone there who was talking about how great it was that the guy behind the counter was now making $15/hour. I told them that in Alabama, that same guy would only make $7.50-$9.00/hour and they seemed aghast. However, that person is paying half for what the sub is, so the buying power, in a sense, was the same, if not a little better. Yes, people here don't maybe make as much money as many other areas of the US, but it sure is a lot cheaper to live here.
 
Why is it that Costco can pay their employees well, keep their prices in check, and stay very profitable but other, similar, companies claim they can't do so?
 

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