Petty for the sake of being petty - Update post #52

[mom2rtk]

I was with you China mom, until you posted photos. That feels very much like a violation, regardless of what your relationship was. I believed it was a mess, and didn't need photos to prove it.

 

[Marrila]

I was with you China mom, until you posted photos. That feels very much like a violation, regardless of what your relationship was. I believed it was a mess, and didn't need photos to prove it.

I hope she reconsiders and removes them. We sadly understood he had struggles with hoarding. And I agree, we don't need evidence.

 

[mjkacmom]

My two cents - let this all go. Using a lawyer will cost you more than any used items from the house are worth. Used items in any house get you VERY little in return, unless they are truly something collectible or valuable on their own (like gold pieces). It will be a lot of time and energy spent chasing things you may never get back anyway - in court, you'd likely just get their value (and see earlier about what that's worth).

From this point forward, put a new lock on the door, and let your brother go forward with selling what he wants. He may soon decide it's not worth it.

And I am sorry for your loss.

My parents had enough valuable stuff that we were able to get an estate sale company come in and have a sale (I think we were at the lowest level, maybe $40,000.). Beautiful antique furniture, silver, Waterford, Lenox, artwork - their home was gorgeous. I also had friends and family do walkthroughs to take what they wanted before bringing the company in. I think our share was $5000, split that with my sister. Of course then we had to pay folks to dispose of what was left, if habitat for humanity wouldn’t take it. I think it would’ve been much easier just to burn it to the ground. Things are worth only what folks want pay, and most don’t want to pay anything. I definitely wouldn’t be paying a lawyer to get stuff back

 

[kymom99]

View attachment 755056View attachment 755058View attachment 755061View attachment 755060View attachment 755059
The friends would be doing me a favor if they hauled this stuff out (this is just a small example of the mess)

Oh my

 

[QueenIsabella]

OP--I know you and I have been going through similar things. If it makes you feel better to send a letter from a lawyer, then do so--I don't think you're in the wrong here.

That said, on another level, you need to be prepared to let this go. My DH only wanted a couple things when his dad died--he got his dad's pilot's license, but it turned out that his mom had sold Dad's silver cornet at a yard sale.

When my dad died, my mom saw fit to give his favorite gun to her oldest son. It was a beautiful weapon--inlaid with mother-of-pearl, silver overlays. I would have loved it--I'm not much of a gun person, but I'm naturally a really good shot. But, my mom would have never considered giving a gun to a girl. Instead...she gave it to the drug addict. It breaks my heart to think of my dad's beautiful weapon being sold for drugs and possibly used to commit a crime. I never, ever knew my dad to point a gun at a living thing--he was a target shooter only.

So, I feel where you're coming from. And you're going through a lot right now. I'm sorry for your loss.

 

[Skywalker]

Here is the questions about pettiness. I have no interest in anything in the house except, if located, my late father's trombone. But, I have a strong sense of moral outrage that this individual has no right to do what he did. It should be up to my brother and I to decide what happens to the stuff, whether it be to keep it, sell it or divide it up amongst his other friends. Am I petty if I have the estate lawyer send the guy a demand letter asking for the property back? Even if I have no interest in the stuff and don't really care what happens to it?

Its a sad situation but if the only thing you are interested in is the trombone, just straight up ask/demand it to be returned. The rest of it, well since you were estranged from your brother who knows what's the right thing to do. Your brother may have specifically told his friends "If I die whatever you do, don't let china mom take my valuables." Maybe the friend thinks he is honouring your brother's wishes. I know that's just one possibility among many, including that the friend is just a thief.

I think at this point I would just hire someone to clear out the house (with instructions that if the trombone is found, you want to keep that) and the rest of it to the dump and forget it.

 

[JLTraveling]

It seems to me that you've gotten yourself into a mess of your own making. If there weren't documents listing you as executor, there was no reason for you to open the estate process. Creditors and the government can fend for themselves. There's absolutely no law requiring an estranged family member to step in and deal with the mess.

As for the items in the house, I completely understand you wanting your late father's trombone. And it seems to me that being very sweet to the friend, thanking them for their concern for the cat, and asking if you could please get that one item likely would have gotten it for you. And it still might, if it hasn't been sold. But you set up a confrontation, and now the guy really isn't interested in dealing with you.

Your other brother isn't innocent here either. First he didn't want anything from the house. Then he decided he wanted to give the photography equipment to his kid. Then he decided he could make money off the old computer stuff. OK, sure, that's all fair. I suppose if there was no will, the stuff is technically his (not super familiar with the rights of succession, but I know blood relatives trump friends). But is it worth it? And if it is worth it to him, then why isn't HE acting as executor, given that he's the one out of the two of you that actually had a relationship with the deceased?

Another point to consider, if you're estranged and your other brother hasn't been super close with him, how do you KNOW what was even in the house at the time of death? Maybe he pawned some of that stuff a long time ago. Or gave it to friends. Or threw it away. Hoarders tend to collect junk, not valuables. The things that were once important to him may be long gone.

If it was me, I would have been thrilled that he had friends dealing with the cat and the house, nicely asked for the trombone up front, and washed my hands of it. If anybody came calling me about his outstanding debts, I'd have directed them to the friend who supposedly has the stuff from the house.

But what's done is done. You've turned it into a legal/governmental matter, so now you'll just have to see how it all plays out. I hope you have a good lawyer.

 

[dizneegirl]

Harsh. Wow.

 

[china mom]

@JLTraveling. I opened the estate because, frankly, we do not know if there is any money. I know there should be but on the other hand, I do not know what his debts were, particularly, his medical debts.

I know the house is likely going to sell for about $15-20K. I know that he inherited part of my mother's 401K but never finished the paperwork so that money is still safe in an account. And there should be money somewhere from what he got from my mother' and another brother's estate. I wrote those checks so I know how much he inherited but don't know what he spent. The last check I wrote was 12/21 so not that long ago.

But, he was also on medicaid so I am positive that the state will make a claim against the estate so I am going into this expecting it all to zero out. If there is money left over for m efforts, great but I am not banking on it. But, if there is money left over after debts are paid, it is family money (all inherited from my mother and brother) so I think it should stay in the family. My brother literally never worked. He survived by letting my mother pay his bills and buy him the house and after she passed, he went on government aid (again, I expect that will have to be paid back).

There is no way that I could have left this for my other brother to handle. He is a wonderful guy but HORRIBLE when it comes to getting anything at all done. He was in charge of my brother's remains and he procrastinated so long that he was exactly one day away from the body being disposed of by the State. He never gets paperwork signed and returned in a timely manner. He is totally clueless when it comes to this stuff. OTOH, this will be my fourth estate in five years so I have a b it of an idea what I am doing.

I do have a good lawyer. He is being a bit on the slow side but I have worked with him on two other estates and I trust him to do a good job.

 

[china mom]

OP--I know you and I have been going through similar things. If it makes you feel better to send a letter from a lawyer, then do so--I don't think you're in the wrong here.

That said, on another level, you need to be prepared to let this go. My DH only wanted a couple things when his dad died--he got his dad's pilot's license, but it turned out that his mom had sold Dad's silver cornet at a yard sale.

When my dad died, my mom saw fit to give his favorite gun to her oldest son. It was a beautiful weapon--inlaid with mother-of-pearl, silver overlays. I would have loved it--I'm not much of a gun person, but I'm naturally a really good shot. But, my mom would have never considered giving a gun to a girl. Instead...she gave it to the drug addict. It breaks my heart to think of my dad's beautiful weapon being sold for drugs and possibly used to commit a crime. I never, ever knew my dad to point a gun at a living thing--he was a target shooter only.

So, I feel where you're coming from. And you're going through a lot right now. I'm sorry for your loss.

Your post hit home, specifically the part about the gun. When my mother was alive, she went out of her way to show me a pearl necklace that she owned and specifically told me that it was mine, one day, "when you are responsible enough" - whatever the heck that meant. It wasn't like I was a child. I was a grown adult, a police officer. The State had entrusted me to make life and death decisions but my mother didn't think I was responsible enough to own a pearl necklace. But, whatever. It was hears to hold onto or to give away. Well, my brother (a different one) stole a whole long list of things to sell for drugs, including the necklace. Its crazy.

I am prepared to let it go if the trombone is never located. I am pretty positive that it is not one of the instruments that the friend has so I know I won't get it back from him. The instruments in question were valuable and special to my brother. I am pretty sure that if the trombone is there, it is under a pile of trash somewhere in the house.

My issue with the friend comes from a sense of justice in that I don't think he should be the only friend to get any of the stuff. Determining who gets what is not his right.

 

[focusondisney]

@china mom, I’m sorry for your loss & that you have to deal with all this. I don’t blame you for
being irritated with that “friend”. How presumptuous for any of them to just go in the house at all. I’d ignore comments about if you’re morally entitled to anything, this is a legal issue. And considering everything the deceased had came from your mother, that alone makes it your moral right to reclaim, IMO.

My mother wasn’t a true hoarder , garbage was always thrown out, but a definite pack rat. My parents never kept their house up or in repair either. She passed away last year. Luckily I have 5 siblings, we all get along well & are dealing with it together. We’re still working on cleaning out the house, we have no rush as there are no outstanding debts & enough cash to pay the bills. I can’t imagine having to do it multiple times & without all of us working together. Bless you.

 

[china mom]

Stand by for the update. I typed it all out and it disappeared.

 

[china mom]

As you may recall, after my brother passed, one of his friends took it upon himself to take some belongings “for safekeeping”. My other brighter asked him for a list of items one at least one occasion with no response. My brother went to the guy’s house for some other reason and now he says he felt like the guy was standing in such away that he could not see inside of the house. But we decided to believe the best and that the guy only had good intentions in taking the stuff and was just too disorganized or airheaded to give us a list.

The only thing I wanted from the house was my fathers trombone. We never could find t after several trips but figured it was buried under piles of stuff. My brother, a musician, thought it was odd that he did not find any electric guitars. And, every time we went up there, we noticed more and more items missing or moved.

Well, the other day, my brother sent me a screenshot of a FB post from their friend group (that I am not a member of) and it basically said that someone was going to be in town at the end of this month and she was planning on staying t the deceased brother’s house and invited anyone who wanted to to come and help her go through things and take what they want. What the heck ?!?.

This was about a week ago. I had my brother post to the group that the house was being sold and closing was this past Friday. In other words, you had better not plan on staying at the house.

Everyone apparently lost their minds and wanted more time to go through the house and get stuff. Keep in mind that not a single on of them is entitled to anything but we didn’t care as at this point, everything was being left in the house to be thrown away by the new owner. It looks like from the FB posts that they were there all weekend – illegally, I must add, since the house sold on Friday.

They are acting very entitled. What they don’t seem to get is that the estate must, by law, pay any creditors before giving anything away. Well, the estate just got served by the State for $50,000 in medical bills. Luckily, the house (that I though was going to sell for $30K) sold for enough to cover that and more but we still have to wait until October to see if any more creditors come forward. As the Personal Representative, I can be held personally liable if I have given anything away and there is not enough funds to bay the bills. Technically, I should have either sold the belongings and put them into the estate account or held them in storage and not given anything away until after the creditors are paid.

Continued...

 

[china mom]

So, back to the trombone and the guy. I found one of the friends on FB, a reasonable one, and messaged her to let me know if anyone found the trombone. She wrote back immediately and said the one guy from the beginning of the story, had it. It was on the list…the list that he never gave my brother. He also apparently has several electric guitars. He had taken camera equipment and musical instruments out of the house before my brother and I even knew that our brother had died and then wouldn’t tell us what he took.

Slightly in his defense, he and I have been in contact on FB messenger and he has agreed to give me the trombone. He seems to be cooperating now despite his “I’m busy this weekend and that weekends etc” But if he does not give it back, I do have enough information to file a replevin case against him.

 

[focusondisney]

I don’t understand why you didn’t change the locks since April, allowed these people to be in the house all weekend & have a lawyer get involved to get your items returned. Especially when there might be bills that need to be paid.

 

[china mom]

I don’t understand why you didn’t change the locks since April, allowed these people to be in the house all weekend & have a lawyer get involved to get your items returned. Especially when there might be bills that need to be paid.

I don't understand it either... as they say, no good deed goes unpunished. I think I was influenced y my (surviving) brother who is very compassionate and empathetic and wanted to play nice with everyone.

I do regret not locking everyone out. Initially, there was the issue with the cat in the house but once that was resolved we should have done it. Of course, come to find out the most valuable items had been removed prior to us even learning of his passing. so by the time we toured the house, it was mostly trash and junk.

We were trying to be compassionate because the friends were so concerned with the belongings being treated respectfully and going to those who were in his life. And since almost all of it was meaningless to me, I was OK with them getting it in the end. I was pretty confident that the estate would be able to pay any outstanding bills and since all we saw in the house was junk, we filed the house itself as the only asset. Of course, now I know that the valuables have been squirrelled away by a few people.

My one issue is the entitlement that they are displaying. They have no legal right to anything and instead of them working with us, they are working around us. Instead of appreciating what they have been allowed to take, they are angry that they have not been given more time to go through his stuff.

I had hired an estate lawyer from the beginning (the one I had previously used for other estates) because the jurisdiction where my brother died is a nightmare to deal with and is a tad too far away for me to keep driving there if I had to handle anything in person. So, I have a lawyer involved already for the estate.

As to the return of property if it comes down to that, I would probably pay the lawyer to send a letter but if I don't get a response for that, I would file a replevin action on my own and not pay the lawyer.

 

[mjkacmom]

File a police report, I don’t think you are going to get anything back, but you can document the theft with the creditors.

 

[china mom]

File a police report, I don’t think you are going to get anything back, but you can document the theft with the creditors.

We have enough money to pay the creditors with proceeds from the sale of the house. Unless there is some crazy surprise creditor we don't know about, that is. I don't want anything except the trombone and my brother would like some guitars. I don't want anything else back nor do I need the money from the sale of any of the stuff.

But, if push comes to shove, I would file a Replevin action with the courts. The burden of proof is lower in civil court than criminal and all I have at this point is his admission via facebook, DM, and text that he has the stuff. And in those messages, he claims not to have the intent to permanently deprive (required for a theft case) rathe that he was "helping us out by holding them for safekeeping"..

And, if he fails to produce the instruments we are asking for, I will sue for those.

 

[fly girl]

I understand all too well about executorship as my dh is currently undergoing this with his brother. It is a headache, especially when you cannot see all that he owes and has because everything is done online and you can't get into every account. Headache central, especially when you don't live in the same state.

Sounds like you have had the best intentions for your brother and you have been more than courteous to his friends. Like you, I agree the entitlement is astounding, but try and look at it as your brother likely told them they could have everything. Does it mean they should go against the executor? No, but people whom have never dealt with this don't have a clue.

In the end, the hope is that the estate was able to pay for all his debts, you get your father's trombone, and your brother gets some of the electric guitars. It really isn't much to ask for either of you.

Take care and know you did the best you could.

 

[Tinijocaro]

I am trying to suppress the urge to be petty. I am trying.

The story: My estranged brother died Jan 20 leaving myself and one brother as survivors. No other relatives, spouses, children etc. Deceased brother had a very large group of friends and also happened to be a hoarder. Some of the friends took it upon themselves to spend about two weeks visiting the house and letting themselves in to feed and try to catch the cat. He lives far enough away that I was grateful that someone was taking care often cat issue. About two or three weeks later, I went by the house with my brother and found and captured the cat within five minutes.... was their trying to catch the cat a ruse? hmmm.

One of the friends told my brother that he had taken musical instruments and camera equipment from the house "for safekeeping" because they were in view of the front door and could be stolen. I asked myself why didn't they just move the stuff out of sight as there are plenty of out of sight places.

My brother has asked this individual several times to provide photos and or a list of the items he took from the house. There has been no response.it has been three months today. I waiver between giving the friend the benefit of the doubt about this and assuming rightful intentions and the thought that he has stolen these items.

Here is the questions about pettiness. I have no interest in anything in the house except, if located, my late father's trombone. But, I have a strong sense of moral outrage that this individual has no right to do what he did. It should be up to my brother and I to decide what happens to the stuff, whether it be to keep it, sell it or divide it up amongst his other friends. Am I petty if I have the estate lawyer send the guy a demand letter asking for the property back? Even if I have no interest in the stuff and don't really care what happens to it?

Not at all petty. That guy had no right to steal. It's really quite simple.