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Poly Tower Speculation

Enjoyed my ‘bus driver’ moment with a cast member at the DVC kiosk in Canada…said they may even make it like Animal Kingdom Lodge where Jambo and Kidani are separate, but can book at 11 months for both. Think that could even remotely be a possibility? I didn’t buy it, but would be nice for people who are team same association.
 
Enjoyed my ‘bus driver’ moment with a cast member at the DVC kiosk in Canada…said they may even make it like Animal Kingdom Lodge where Jambo and Kidani are separate, but can book at 11 months for both. Think that could even remotely be a possibility? I didn’t buy it, but would be nice for people who are team same association.

Well, Jambo and Kidani are not different associations so they were not correct with that info.
 
Enjoyed my ‘bus driver’ moment with a cast member at the DVC kiosk in Canada…said they may even make it like Animal Kingdom Lodge where Jambo and Kidani are separate, but can book at 11 months for both. Think that could even remotely be a possibility? I didn’t buy it, but would be nice for people who are team same association.

It's fascinating how the folks in the kiosks talk so much now about things that used to be severely limited and as I understood it, by law. I used to stop by regularly, but I haven't in years now. I don't remember the last time I stopped at a kiosk now that I think about it, but back in the old days, even uttering something like this would have been grounds for immediate dismissal as I understood it. I see posts all the time now that make me cringe at the 'answers' they are allowed to give out at them now. Things that couldn't even be talked about outside a formal sales presentation with an authorized guide in days gone by. Giving out bad information from a time share company has serious legal ramifications and is tightly regulated. Using the word 'may' probably doesn't release them from that liability. Wow.
 
Enjoyed my ‘bus driver’ moment with a cast member at the DVC kiosk in Canada…said they may even make it like Animal Kingdom Lodge where Jambo and Kidani are separate, but can book at 11 months for both. Think that could even remotely be a possibility? I didn’t buy it, but would be nice for people who are team same association.
If it's the same.association, it's most likely the way booking will work.
If they're separate associations, then no, it's not possible.

Maybe, there is the remote possibility that DVC would change the trading rules again and to have a privileged booking window. Like for example, PVB1 owners can book at 11 months at PVB1, at 8 months at PVB2 and 7 months everything else (and vice versa for PVB2). So owners of the one association have a large booking window for their home, but the other association gets first shot at what's left after a while. If resale restrictions are legal (which I have doubts about) this would be legal too.
I don't know if it would be convenient for Disney or not.
 


If it's the same.association, it's most likely the way booking will work.
If they're separate associations, then no, it's not possible.

Maybe, there is the remote possibility that DVC would change the trading rules again and to have a privileged booking window. Like for example, PVB1 owners can book at 11 months at PVB1, at 8 months at PVB2 and 7 months everything else (and vice versa for PVB2). So owners of the one association have a large booking window for their home, but the other association gets first shot at what's left after a while. If resale restrictions are legal (which I have doubts about) this would be legal too.
I don't know if it would be convenient for Disney or not.
Why do you think resale restrictions are not legal?
 
If it's the same.association, it's most likely the way booking will work.
If they're separate associations, then no, it's not possible.

Maybe, there is the remote possibility that DVC would change the trading rules again and to have a privileged booking window. Like for example, PVB1 owners can book at 11 months at PVB1, at 8 months at PVB2 and 7 months everything else (and vice versa for PVB2). So owners of the one association have a large booking window for their home, but the other association gets first shot at what's left after a while. If resale restrictions are legal (which I have doubts about) this would be legal too.
I don't know if it would be convenient for Disney or not.

They can make different trading rules but I would be surprised to see them give Poly Tower a shorter home resort period…assuming new association.. than all other resorts…just to give PVB owners an extra month before other ones.

I think that would be way too complicated to have that happen. I don’t see why PVB owners would need to have a different window than all other resorts.
 


They can make different trading rules but I would be surprised to see them give Poly Tower a shorter home resort period…assuming new association.. than all other resorts…just to give PVB owners an extra month before other ones.

I think that would be way too complicated to have that happen. I don’t see why PVB owners would need to have a different window than all other resorts.
I don't think they'll do it either. But as this is speculation thread, it's something that could happen if Disney sees an advantage in it.
 
This is a more appropriate place to speculate…go @ehh!
Hey @ehh, can you comment on how the same association contingency for Poly2 would look like from the perspective of room declarations?




Say PVB has 3million total points and Poly2 tower will add 3million total points. If in the case of those two having the same association, wouldn't DVC need to declare at least 50% of inventory right off the bat? What would it say about the likelihood of it being the same association? More or less likely? Won't make a difference?
 
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Hey @ehh, can you comment on how the same association contingency for Poly2 would look like from the perspective of room declarations?




Say PVB has 3million total points and Poly2 tower will add 3million total points. If in the case of those two having the same association, wouldn't DVC need to declare at least 50% of inventory right off the bat? What would it say about the likelihood of it being the same association? More or less likely? Won't make a difference?
I think they have a few different options for adding Poly Tower inventory to the mix during the sales period.

For those who haven't followed the breadcrumbs back to the VDH thread, I assert the following about how DVC declares rooms after closely monitoring the Riviera (since March of this year) and VDH declarations/inventory/sales levels:
  • DVC's current MO is not to have 'inventory dumps' where they add a bunch of inventory to all bookable dates due to a declaration. They've demonstrated, repeatedly, they'd rather provide that inventory somewhat invisibly at the 11m booking window.
    • I suspect this is because it makes booking easier for owners during the sales period and reduces complaints about how hard it is to book at an actively sold resort.
    • It also avoids 'fairness' complaints if someone couldn't book something at 11m as an owner but it becomes readily available for anyone at 3m due to declarations.
    • It also reduces unused rooms (if you add inventory a week before a stay, it has a good chance it will not be occupied).
In practice, their MO is to forecast sales a year-ish out and make at least that much inventory available at 11m booking window. As the dates-of-stay approach, they file the formal declaration paperwork to align with the inventory levels previously made available via booking tool.

DVC's inventory rollout MO makes it logistically harder to include Poly Tower into the same association as PVB, but not at all impossible. I don't even think it factors significantly into their decision of same association vs. new association.

For the sake of simplicity, let's assume Poly2 has the same ~4mil points as Poly1 and that it's the same association in the following scenarios.

Why DVC probably can't stick to their normal MO of adding inventory and declaring Units based strictly on forecasted sales:
Thus far, ~4mil PVB points have been sold, all for longhouses and bungalows, and adding all-new accommodations into the same association creates a really unbalanced rollout if you think of it as one giant resort.

There will be some number of owners in the Poly1 4mil bucket wanting to book at the new Tower. Hypothetically, let's say 25% of Poly1 points want to book at the new Tower when it opens. Let's also assume that in pre-opening sales that Poly2 sells 15% of its points (same ballpark as RIV and VDH) and that 2/3rds of those points 'want' to book the Tower.

25% + 10% combined is a 35% 'demand load' on the new Tower despite only 15% being sold by the time it opens.

For reference: 1yr after VDH's opening the available inventory is ~45% of total inventory despite just ~15% being sold so far. This means that just 15% of VDH points are competing for 45% of rooms at VDH at 11m now. Something similar happened with RIV, too.

But for Poly2, it will be an equivalent of 35% of Tower points competing for 45% of Tower inventory, a much worse ratio that will lead to "it's hard to book at Poly Tower" complaints. At least if they stick to their normal MO.

It might even be worse if more than 25% of Poly1 points want to just try the new Tower early on. If 50% of Poly1 points want to use their points at Poly2 early-ish, that means an equivalent of 60% of points are competing for 45% of inventory despite just 15% of Poly2 being sold. This is bad!

Eventually it all works out when Poly2 is sold out. But for smooth sailing during active sales period of Poly2, their normal MO for adding inventory probably won't be sufficient. It might even deter some sales, the one thing they really care about.

They have other options though!

Option 1 - Keep it simple, declare it all:
IIRC, when VGF2 opened, it was all declared at once. I don't know if all rooms were available in inventory immediately (I have have strong doubts), but it was all declared and this drama was basically avoided.

Option 2 - Over-declare just a little bit:
If it's 'normal' to have 45% of inventory available at 11m out of 15% of sales, then maybe they make 60-70% of Poly Tower rooms available/declared instead of the normal 45%.

It should be enough to relieve much of the likely booking pressure at Poly2, but without some form of Poly1 inventory clawback I think this is less appealing to Disney.

Option 3 - Declare it all or over-declare, but make available inventory across both Poly1 and Poly2 match expected booking patterns by holding back rooms for cash with DVD-owned points:
I'm only 95%, not 100%, on the legal/contractual viability of this one, but I like this one the best.

Just because a Unit is declared doesn't mean that it must be in inventory. DVC owns, or has received in trades/breakage/etc., a lot of points and routinely holds back inventory to align with the points they own or have access to. They, in turn, rent those rooms for ca$h.

I don't see why it would be different here where they might have declared most/all of the Poly2 Units, but still hold inventory back with the significant number of points they own.

Why I like this one: in addition to holding back Poly2 inventory, they could also hold back Poly1 inventory. It is one resort, after all.

How this could look: on opening day of Poly2 when they have sold 15% of new points, they have 65% of Poly2 inventory available for booking in addition to 'just' 80% of Poly1 inventory available. They've sold '115% of 200%' at this point, and have '145% of 200%' inventory available, exactly the same as what they would have had with separate associations.

Why I think DVC might like this one: they still get a lot of rooms to rent on cash (in fact, they likely get even more Deluxe Studios, which are the cash-cows of the cash rentals via Disney), they can probably dodge the 'it's hard to book here' complaints, and it allows them to progressively add inventory as a normal rollout would.
 
I think they have a few different options for adding Poly Tower inventory to the mix during the sales period.

For those who haven't followed the breadcrumbs back to the VDH thread, I assert the following about how DVC declares rooms after closely monitoring the Riviera (since March of this year) and VDH declarations/inventory/sales levels:
  • DVC's current MO is not to have 'inventory dumps' where they add a bunch of inventory to all bookable dates due to a declaration. They've demonstrated, repeatedly, they'd rather provide that inventory somewhat invisibly at the 11m booking window.
    • I suspect this is because it makes booking easier for owners during the sales period and reduces complaints about how hard it is to book at an actively sold resort.
    • It also avoids 'fairness' complaints if someone couldn't book something at 11m as an owner but it becomes readily available for anyone at 3m due to declarations.
    • It also reduces unused rooms (if you add inventory a week before a stay, it has a good chance it will not be occupied).
In practice, their MO is to forecast sales a year-ish out and make at least that much inventory available at 11m booking window. As the dates-of-stay approach, they file the formal declaration paperwork to align with the inventory levels previously made available via booking tool.

DVC's inventory rollout MO makes it logistically harder to include Poly Tower into the same association as PVB, but not at all impossible. I don't even think it factors significantly into their decision of same association vs. new association.

For the sake of simplicity, let's assume Poly2 has the same ~4mil points as Poly1 and that it's the same association in the following scenarios.

Why DVC probably can't stick to their normal MO of adding inventory and declaring Units based strictly on forecasted sales:
Thus far, ~4mil PVB points have been sold, all for longhouses and bungalows, and adding all-new accommodations into the same association creates a really unbalanced rollout if you think of it as one giant resort.

There will be some number of owners in the Poly1 4mil bucket wanting to book at the new Tower. Hypothetically, let's say 25% of Poly1 points want to book at the new Tower when it opens. Let's also assume that in pre-opening sales that Poly2 sells 15% of its points (same ballpark as RIV and VDH) and that 2/3rds of those points 'want' to book the Tower.

25% + 10% combined is a 35% 'demand load' on the new Tower despite only 15% being sold by the time it opens.

For reference: 1yr after VDH's opening the available inventory is ~45% of total inventory despite just ~15% being sold so far. This means that just 15% of VDH points are competing for 45% of rooms at VDH at 11m now. Something similar happened with RIV, too.

But for Poly2, it will be an equivalent of 35% of Tower points competing for 45% of Tower inventory, a much worse ratio that will lead to "it's hard to book at Poly Tower" complaints. At least if they stick to their normal MO.

It might even be worse if more than 25% of Poly1 points want to just try the new Tower early on. If 50% of Poly1 points want to use their points at Poly2 early-ish, that means an equivalent of 60% of points are competing for 45% of inventory despite just 15% of Poly2 being sold. This is bad!

Eventually it all works out when Poly2 is sold out. But for smooth sailing during active sales period of Poly2, their normal MO for adding inventory probably won't be sufficient. It might even deter some sales, the one thing they really care about.

They have other options though!

Option 1 - Keep it simple, declare it all:
IIRC, when VGF2 opened, it was all declared at once. I don't know if all rooms were available in inventory immediately (I have have strong doubts), but it was all declared and this drama was basically avoided.

Option 2 - Over-declare just a little bit:
If it's 'normal' to have 45% of inventory available at 11m out of 15% of sales, then maybe they make 60-70% of Poly Tower rooms available/declared instead of the normal 45%.

It should be enough to relieve much of the likely booking pressure at Poly2, but without some form of Poly1 inventory clawback I think this is less appealing to Disney.

Option 3 - Declare it all or over-declare, but make available inventory across both Poly1 and Poly2 match expected booking patterns by holding back rooms for cash with DVD-owned points:
I'm only 95%, not 100%, on the legal/contractual viability of this one, but I like this one the best.

Just because a Unit is declared doesn't mean that it must be in inventory. DVC owns, or has received in trades/breakage/etc., a lot of points and routinely holds back inventory to align with the points they own or have access to. They, in turn, rent those rooms for ca$h.

I don't see why it would be different here where they might have declared most/all of the Poly2 Units, but still hold inventory back with the significant number of points they own.

Why I like this one: in addition to holding back Poly2 inventory, they could also hold back Poly1 inventory. It is one resort, after all.

How this could look: on opening day of Poly2 when they have sold 15% of new points, they have 65% of Poly2 inventory available for booking in addition to 'just' 80% of Poly1 inventory available. They've sold '115% of 200%' at this point, and have '145% of 200%' inventory available, exactly the same as what they would have had with separate associations.

Why I think DVC might like this one: they still get a lot of rooms to rent on cash (in fact, they likely get even more Deluxe Studios, which are the cash-cows of the cash rentals via Disney), they can probably dodge the 'it's hard to book here' complaints, and it allows them to progressively add inventory as a normal rollout would.
What a tour de force of informed-speculation!

Your analysis, in my opinion, points strongly towards it Poly2 being a separate association ...if DVC believes in Occam's razor, or a corollary of it ==> when you have two competing possibilities for the same DVC tower, you should prefer the simpler one. "Same association" comes with at least three separate options just to handle declarations. "Separate association" will be just one option. The "simpler" possibility is SEPARATE association folks! I want to see 50 more votes for 100% separate association tomorrow (oh oops, this isn't the thread with the poll)! Hahahaha. 🤣
 
This is a more appropriate place to speculate…go @ehh!

If it’s the same association, then any declared inventory will be available to all owners..new towe and PVB during home resort and all others at 7 month booking.

The problem with declaring too many points is that DVD can’t then use them for cash.

There is a reason why they haven’t declared more points into RIV…they don’t want to lose those bookings.

So, I do not see them declaring Poly tower at a greater rate than most resorts.

VGF was pretty unique in that all rooms were released at once. Most have not been that way.

Plus, DVD doesn’t pay operating expenses for points declared that they still own. But, they are required to cover any shortfall. My guess is that is part of why they declare in the increments rhey do based on sales.

Nothing requires them to declare any % of inventory at the start…it’s up to them.

I think the filing for sale of FW leads me to two things…if it’s the same, they will do the amendment in December when they posted the POS, including multi site POS. …like they did with adding VDH.

Or, they will file for sale in January or February as the new association.

The plus is I think we are just a few months away from finally knowing what they will do!
 
I think they have a few different options for adding Poly Tower inventory to the mix during the sales period.

For those who haven't followed the breadcrumbs back to the VDH thread, I assert the following about how DVC declares rooms after closely monitoring the Riviera (since March of this year) and VDH declarations/inventory/sales levels:
  • DVC's current MO is not to have 'inventory dumps' where they add a bunch of inventory to all bookable dates due to a declaration. They've demonstrated, repeatedly, they'd rather provide that inventory somewhat invisibly at the 11m booking window.
    • I suspect this is because it makes booking easier for owners during the sales period and reduces complaints about how hard it is to book at an actively sold resort.
    • It also avoids 'fairness' complaints if someone couldn't book something at 11m as an owner but it becomes readily available for anyone at 3m due to declarations.
    • It also reduces unused rooms (if you add inventory a week before a stay, it has a good chance it will not be occupied).
In practice, their MO is to forecast sales a year-ish out and make at least that much inventory available at 11m booking window. As the dates-of-stay approach, they file the formal declaration paperwork to align with the inventory levels previously made available via booking tool.

DVC's inventory rollout MO makes it logistically harder to include Poly Tower into the same association as PVB, but not at all impossible. I don't even think it factors significantly into their decision of same association vs. new association.

For the sake of simplicity, let's assume Poly2 has the same ~4mil points as Poly1 and that it's the same association in the following scenarios.

Why DVC probably can't stick to their normal MO of adding inventory and declaring Units based strictly on forecasted sales:
Thus far, ~4mil PVB points have been sold, all for longhouses and bungalows, and adding all-new accommodations into the same association creates a really unbalanced rollout if you think of it as one giant resort.

There will be some number of owners in the Poly1 4mil bucket wanting to book at the new Tower. Hypothetically, let's say 25% of Poly1 points want to book at the new Tower when it opens. Let's also assume that in pre-opening sales that Poly2 sells 15% of its points (same ballpark as RIV and VDH) and that 2/3rds of those points 'want' to book the Tower.

25% + 10% combined is a 35% 'demand load' on the new Tower despite only 15% being sold by the time it opens.

For reference: 1yr after VDH's opening the available inventory is ~45% of total inventory despite just ~15% being sold so far. This means that just 15% of VDH points are competing for 45% of rooms at VDH at 11m now. Something similar happened with RIV, too.

But for Poly2, it will be an equivalent of 35% of Tower points competing for 45% of Tower inventory, a much worse ratio that will lead to "it's hard to book at Poly Tower" complaints. At least if they stick to their normal MO.

It might even be worse if more than 25% of Poly1 points want to just try the new Tower early on. If 50% of Poly1 points want to use their points at Poly2 early-ish, that means an equivalent of 60% of points are competing for 45% of inventory despite just 15% of Poly2 being sold. This is bad!

Eventually it all works out when Poly2 is sold out. But for smooth sailing during active sales period of Poly2, their normal MO for adding inventory probably won't be sufficient. It might even deter some sales, the one thing they really care about.

They have other options though!

Option 1 - Keep it simple, declare it all:
IIRC, when VGF2 opened, it was all declared at once. I don't know if all rooms were available in inventory immediately (I have have strong doubts), but it was all declared and this drama was basically avoided.

Option 2 - Over-declare just a little bit:
If it's 'normal' to have 45% of inventory available at 11m out of 15% of sales, then maybe they make 60-70% of Poly Tower rooms available/declared instead of the normal 45%.

It should be enough to relieve much of the likely booking pressure at Poly2, but without some form of Poly1 inventory clawback I think this is less appealing to Disney.

Option 3 - Declare it all or over-declare, but make available inventory across both Poly1 and Poly2 match expected booking patterns by holding back rooms for cash with DVD-owned points:
I'm only 95%, not 100%, on the legal/contractual viability of this one, but I like this one the best.

Just because a Unit is declared doesn't mean that it must be in inventory. DVC owns, or has received in trades/breakage/etc., a lot of points and routinely holds back inventory to align with the points they own or have access to. They, in turn, rent those rooms for ca$h.

I don't see why it would be different here where they might have declared most/all of the Poly2 Units, but still hold inventory back with the significant number of points they own.

Why I like this one: in addition to holding back Poly2 inventory, they could also hold back Poly1 inventory. It is one resort, after all.

How this could look: on opening day of Poly2 when they have sold 15% of new points, they have 65% of Poly2 inventory available for booking in addition to 'just' 80% of Poly1 inventory available. They've sold '115% of 200%' at this point, and have '145% of 200%' inventory available, exactly the same as what they would have had with separate associations.

Why I think DVC might like this one: they still get a lot of rooms to rent on cash (in fact, they likely get even more Deluxe Studios, which are the cash-cows of the cash rentals via Disney), they can probably dodge the 'it's hard to book here' complaints, and it allows them to progressively add inventory as a normal rollout would.

Just to add, legally, once declared into the condo, all those rooms must be offered to owners at that resort.

So, when VGF declared all 202 rooms, those 202 rooms had to be bookable by owners during home resort and non owners during trading period.

They can not declare and then hold back. Once declared, DVD must follow the same booking rules to book at 11 months as everyone else.

And, see my post above, declaring all puts them into a pretty different position for operating costs.

Remember, BPK already existed at VGF…it wasn’t but shifted from cash to DVC. As a shared resort, that difference probably wasn’t great enough to make any shortfall worrisome. I am not so sure they’d want that with the tower.

Hence, another reason for me to say it’s going to be new and not rolled in to PVB.
 
Just to add, legally, once declared into the condo, all those rooms must be offered to owners at that resort.

So, when VGF declared all 202 rooms, those 202 rooms had to be bookable by owners during home resort and non owners during trading period.
Okay, but the 202 rooms weren't all available any time I checked (maybe they were for a day? I don't check VGF often). Still aren't (and it's not close...roughly 25% of them are unavailable at 11m+7d).

Disney holds back inventory, sometimes significant amounts, from ever being bookable for reasons I can't explain.

If it's because of owned/breakage/traded-out/etc., then I'm not sure why they can't do that here.

And, see my post above, declaring all puts them into a pretty different position for operating costs.
Operating costs are a great callout. Any sort of 'over-declaration' would shift an undue amount of operating costs to owners, which would lead to unpopular dues increases.
 
Okay, but the 202 rooms weren't all available any time I checked (maybe they were for a day? I don't check VGF often). Still aren't (and it's not close...roughly 25% of them are unavailable at 11m+7d).

Disney holds back inventory, sometimes significant amounts, from ever being bookable for reasons I can't explain.

If it's because of owned/breakage/traded-out/etc., then I'm not sure why they can't do that here.


Operating costs are a great callout. Any sort of 'over-declaration' would shift an undue amount of operating costs to owners, which would lead to unpopular dues increases.

I think the reason they can’t do it here is that they have to have valid reasons, like trades, etc. if they are not releasing all rooms at once.

So, they can’t declare and just decide to hold back rooms so it’s balanced. That would be a big no no for them. The point being is that all owners, including DVD, are entitled to reserve declared rooms since they are paying for them via dues.

If you are seeing 25% of any room category of declared rooms gone beyond 11 months and 7 days, I’d want to question them about it.
 
If you are seeing 25% of any room category of declared rooms gone beyond 11 months and 7 days, I’d want to question them about it.
Seems the answer to the “25% gone 1 week before 11-month window opens for booking” …is Favorite Weeks (FW/GW). FW are capped at 35% of any one booking category right?
 
Seems the answer to the “25% gone 1 week before 11-month window opens for booking” …is Favorite Weeks (FW/GW). FW are capped at 35% of any one booking category right?
I have strong doubts it's Favorite/Fixed Weeks. The volume is too high and it's too consistent week-to-week. And there's other booking tool quirks (how inventory is posted on weekends vs. weekdays) that also suggest it's not FW.
 
Seems the answer to the “25% gone 1 week before 11-month window opens for booking” …is Favorite Weeks (FW/GW). FW are capped at 35% of any one booking category right?

I forgot about that but yes, the FW that is sold for any dates would take rooms out 12 months prior.

It would only be 35% if they actually sell that many. They can’t pre take them out though if they have not sold them.

For example, if they declared 202 rooms at BPK, they could only remove the rooms once they sell the FW.

It certainly could explain why its less at certain times.
 
I have strong doubts it's Favorite/Fixed Weeks. The volume is too high and it's too consistent week-to-week. And there's other booking tool quirks (how inventory is posted on weekends vs. weekdays) that also suggest it's not FW.

Have you reached out then to DVC to share what you are seeing? I have not been able to figure out seeing room counts yet but it should never be that high if we are outside the booking window.

Are you checking right at midnight? Just curious when you are seeing such a big discrepancy against declared.

I was thinking about resort studios..so we have the actual number of each view? I don’t believe DVC publishes that, so they?

To get back to Poly tower, even if they go same, I just don’t see them declaring at a rate higher than sales dictate.
 
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