Screamscape reports...Forbidden Mountain!?!?!

[Bstanley]

Kewl, a discussion.

I don't plan to change cars or anything, but I'm certainly willing to accept that adding a couple more E-ticket attractions to AK would benefit the park.

I personally can't imagine how you could really 'theme' a giant (think Hulk or Dueling Dragons) roller coaster without mightily detracting from those aspects of AK that I really enjoy now, but I've been surprised by the Imagineers before. I especially cannot picture myself enoying the Lion King show with the 'WHHOoosshh' of a 'Hulk style' 'coaster going on next door.

You know one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the competition - AK opened just one year before IoA opened - I wonder how much attendance at WDW would have declined if AK hadn't been opened when it was?

 

[Another Voice]

Actually what I’m trying to implying is that Animal Kingdom has not lived up to Disney management’s expectations in terms of overall numbers, length of stay in the park and in-park spending (related numbers of course). For that reason the park’s operations have been reduced and expansion plans have been long in coming and smaller in scope than expected. Whether Disney's original expectations were realistic, pre- or post-IOA, is another matter entirely.

No one expects AK to draw the same numbers at the Magic Kingdom, but the belief inside the company is that AK receives its guest by drawing them away from the other parks rather bringing additional guests to the property overall. This has had ramifications through the resort. I think it is important to understand the background of the situation when talking about rumors and future plans. One can put faith in Beastly Kingdom, Australia or whatever – but one has to understand the likelihood about those things coming into existence.

On the economy comments, what I was trying to point out is that “early years” required more courage and more conviction to proceed with Walt Disney World projects than today does. I think the success of WDW came in spite of the economy due to the quality and scope of the project. And the good times in ‘90s did not see people feeling WDW for more exotic destinations; it allowed more people to travel to WDW more often than in the past.

My personal opinion is that Animal Kingdom is symptomatic of just how unsure The Company is about itself these days. There were some absolutely staggering ideas that would have made a park so exciting and innovative that – had they worked – would have had the public clamoring for the experience. But instead of taking a risk on the new, they choose instead to create another theme park using very traditional ideas (I went on the drive through animal enclosures at Lion Country Safari thirty years ago). And even then, they did not have the courage to build their full idea. They hedged, they worried, and they fretted – and let a spreadsheet do their thinking. Yes, it was economocially sound, but entertainment is by nature a risky business and the public responds more to excitment than it does to sound business management.

Disneyland, the Magic Kingdom, and especially EPCOT Center were huge leaps of confidence. The Company knew it had a good product and that they would be rewarded by the public. The current management lacks that confidence. They are offering a timid product yet are surprised when the public does not embrace it like they did the bolder parks.

 

[space42]

Originally posted by Bstanley
Kewl, a discussion.

I don't plan to change cars or anything, but I'm certainly willing to accept that adding a couple more E-ticket attractions to AK would benefit the park.

I personally can't imagine how you could really 'theme' a giant (think Hulk or Dueling Dragons) roller coaster without mightily detracting from those aspects of AK that I really enjoy now, but I've been surprised by the Imagineers before. I especially cannot picture myself enoying the Lion King show with the 'WHHOoosshh' of a 'Hulk style' 'coaster going on next door.

You know one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the competition - AK opened just one year before IoA opened - I wonder how much attendance at WDW would have declined if AK hadn't been opened when it was?

Good point Bstanley. I'll try to find a link to that BK concept art. The "coaster" would have been all wrapped up inside a crumbleing castle / dragons lair. Most, if not all, of the attraction would have been indoors so noise would not have been a problem. It would not be like those ugly eyesores over at IOA (sorry BobO).

One must also remember that it was not JUST BK that was axed from the budget. If you had BK, that would have probably added 1 1/2 hours or so to your day. One or two smaller attractions in each "land" would have added perhaps another 2 hours. That would at least put it in the same league as the other parks.

 

[Bstanley]

Wow, what a great word picture, thanks AV.

Lost Opportunities - certainly the most frustating aspect of business when you're on the creative side - in your mind you can see the people walking in the gate, hear the excitement in their voices...

It's as clear as the nose on my face you think, as you hear the MBA at the head of the table say NO - why can't he see the people too you marvel!

You know though nothing happens in a vacumn, Epcot is a World Class Wonder there's no doubt about that, but half of the money spent on it might have been just the money the company needed to stay out of the hands of the greenmailers and breakup artists.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Voice - I have a few questions for you my learned friend. I'm curious to learn how things are viewed from the inside.

What were the expectations for AK attendance numbers? Spending? How have the results measured up?

How can Disney conclude with any certainty that AK visitors are drawn from the other WDW parks, as opposed to new visitors? I'm sure there are lots of people who made post AK return visits to WDW sooner than they would have had a new park not opened. These people may spend more time and money at MK or Epcot, but they may be there in part because of the AK. How would these people be counted in the great attendance tabulator? Does AK get any credit for boosting overall WDW attendance in such a way?

It seems that it can become a difficult game as you open more parks and then start to try and determine who visited where, and whether they were drawn away from another park. I view WDW as a package deal and find it hard to look at any of the individual parks on their own when it comes to what draws me to WDW. I can also say that our length of visit is greater now than in the past, and would be shorter if there were fewer parks. I also doubt we are that many standard deviations from the norm when it comes to the WDW public.

 

[YoHo]

I think the Main Problem is that Disney World started to rely on "Yearly" Repeat visits as a given and designed accordingly.

Clearly, Small improvments like Dinorama are tailored to the type of Visitor who needs incremental upgrades, not major ones.

A shift back in focus to the Vacation Destination is in order, the problem is that the economics is different. oh they can make the same amount of money, but they have to think differently.
Combined with the Disney Stores which undermine sales within the park. They've restructured the economy of the parks such that in the current economic climate it simply does not work as efficently as a money Generator. Combined with the gunshy attitude of managment. You're left with parks treading water.

 

[raidermatt]

AV- Has any info leaked about AK's numbers this year, relative to the other parks? Have JJP and DR had the positive impact mgmt hoped for? Any impact to length of stay, rather than just sucking from the other parks? Too early to say? (probably too early on at least some counts, since DR has only been open a couple of months, and length of stay is probably a "lag" indicator)

What about occupancy percentage in the resorts? Yes, there are many other factors, but if the goal is an increase in length of stay and new attendees, that should show up (or not show up) in the resort occupancies, or in increased room rates...

So many questions...

Not that positive numbers would completely justify mgmt actions, but since part of the criticism of AK is that the people aren't responding, any change in numbers is relevant to the discussion.

Pirate, it seems from your comments that you believe we will see some more investment in the parks when the economy improves, and/or the company's other businesses improve. True?

AV, what about you? It seems you are more skeptical that even an improved economy and ABC would loosen things up for the parks. In other words, mgmt has been and will continue to be timid until they are gone. True?

 

[All Aboard]

How can Disney conclude with any certainty that AK visitors are drawn from the other WDW parks, as opposed to new visitors?

The annual visitors numbers were hashed out in an earlier thread. Using the numbers provided:

Growth in attendance for MK+Ep+MGM

1995: 14.5%
1996: 5.7%
1997: 11.7%

1998 (AK Opened): 8.8% decline [4 million total decline [MK+Ep+MGM] AK had 6 million guests]

1999: 4.7% decline [2 million decline, 8.6 million AK visitors.]

2000: Attendance stabilized in total, AK declined slightly.

From those numbers it's fairly easy to conclude that while WDW has some total growth in attendance, some of AK's attendance came at the expense of the first three parks.

Even though the 25th anniv was going on in 1997, and 9/11 occured last year - the fact that 1997 and 2001 total WDW attendance are almost identical (despite 33.3% more Disney Theme Parks to choose from) is troubling.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Matt, sadly I believe we won't see new investment in the parks without a direct positive cost/benefit ratio (no matter what the economy). I think under the current philosophy, in the current environment (both business & economic) that WDW's new 'excitement' will come from necessary replacement & sponsored attractions. I don't see this company going 'hog wild' in Orlando in the near future.

I have always contended that the only way we will see a TDS type Park in the US is if Disney decides to build another Resort (i.e Texas)...

 

[Bob O]

To me it gets down to producing a quality product with enough things to do for a entire day at the park. Even some Car1 people have stated when AK was initially opened it wasnt a full day park. To charge a full days admission for a park that doesnt have a full days worth of attractions is intentionally riping off the public, and thats what disney did from day 1. now if they would have charged a small admission that would have been fine, but no they wanted to bleed the public till the park is fully completed. And like AV said, the additions coming now are no benefit to the people who have already paid full pirce to be at the park.
And i hope SW/USF keeps pushing wdw to increase the quality of their product. But i still believe that alot of wdw fans wuld have been complaining big time if they went to IOA and their was no marvel comic area or JP area and they were touted prior to park opening that they would be a mainstay area of the park which is what took place at BK.

 

[Another Voice]

Okay, another conference call just started – I can get some posting done now.

The Amusement Business Journal numbers are not wholly accurate, but they are accurate enough for discussion here and to look at the major trends. I think using the way those numbers were taken, first year attendance for Animal Kingdom was probably pegged at between 9.5 – 10 million clicks. AK was supposed to draw near Epcot numbers (which Burbank still considers low) and the Disney/MGM Studios was always going to be the small park.

Understanding the mechanics behind those numbers is more like quantum physics than mathematics – nothing’s really certain one way or the other. Disney can collect a whole lot of data (the magnetic stripes on the back of your tickets do more than just keep track of the number of times the ticket has been used). Simply looking at the times and places a single ticket is swiped on the same day gives you a rough idea about what the guest is up to. And there are lots of young bright faces locked in gray cubicles in Mouseacatraz who spend their working hours puzzling over the numbers. And in Animal Kingdom’s case you had a whole bunch of managers at the other three parks wondering why all their guests were showing up late.

Also the attendance numbers track the number of admission-day – one guest entering one theme park for a day – not the true number of guests on the property. Part of the goal of Animal Kingdom was to keep people on property, have them go to a Disney theme park instead of Universal, Sea World or other area attractions. That would have happened without the guests extending their hotel stay a single day; Disney really wanted both meal & merchandise spending and to sell longer length passports. That effect alone should have caused an immediate 15% or so increase in admission-day numbers.

As Mr. DisneyKidds said, it is a very difficult game. That’s why I think Disney management’s perception of what’s going on is so important. What you or I see on the ground is not as important to the future of this park as the PowerPoint presentation given to the guys in Burbank that tries to explain this mess. All they want to see are numbers move in specific ways. The hows and whys of the numbers are always going to be fuzzy, that’s why a good businessperson can look beyond the spreadsheet and make an occasional judgment call. But if you have an executive that just looks at numbers....

On the economy, I think entertainment works very differently. Big consumer products like cars and refrigerators follow big economic trends; people have to buy them and it’s a matter of when and how much they can afford. But entertainment needs to draw people to it. There is no “must have” about a trip to WDW. People can all too easily postpone a trip. The postponement can quickly turn into disinterest – especially if there is no strong compelling reason to go back. People don’t go to a theme park simply because it’s there (witness California Adventure).

On the effects of Dino-Rama, I did read a quote from Al Weiss where he said they noticed a slight increase in the length of stay. If that’s the best spin he can put on it I’m not surprised to see all the sudden talk about more attractions at Animal Kingdom. The effects should have been immediate too since the guests are already in the park. And I have not seen any numbers for this year, but it’s going to be a strange one anyway.


P.S. – A lot of people consider EPCOT Center to be the single asset that saved Disney from the greenmailers. The raiders were looking for cash and lots of easily disposable assets that they could take in profit and/or pay off the junk bonds used to takeover the company. A $1.2 billion chunk of concrete sunk in the central Florida swamp lands isn’t as easy to sell as the cable rights to ‘Snow White’. Both of the major attempts stumbled over trying to line up the buyers for the after-takeover sales of assets. No one was convinced that anyone other than Disney could run the parks better, so there were few potential customers. Without customers, the take-over attempts lack financing.

And the greenmails themselves weren’t because Disney was doing poorly financially. It was simply a case that the sum of the company was valued less (by the stock price) than what people thought they could get for the individual parts. Has anyone looked at the break-up value of Disney compared to its current market capitalization recently? Seems like déjà vu all over again.

P.S.S. – As for the crankiness, you sit through a screening of ‘Mr. Deeds’ and see how your brain comes out of that experience.

 

[Tik Tok]

Originally posted by Another Voice
On the effects of Dino-Rama, I did read a quote from Al Weiss where he said they noticed a slight increase in the length of stay. If that’s the best spin he can put on it I’m not surprised to see all the sudden talk about more attractions at Animal Kingdom. The effects should have been immediate too since the guests are already in the park. And I have not seen any numbers for this year, but it’s going to be a strange one anyway.

This is not surprising at all. That coaster has such a low capacity that it always seems to have a huge wait time, and I can just imagine people walking up to it, seeing what the ride is, seeing the long wait time, and just walking away. Don't get me wrong, the ride is fun and all, but certainly not worth a 45 minute wait -- and unfortunately for Disney, people can SEE that as soon as they walk up to the ride.

And that's the real problem with this ride -- guests can SEE the whole ride, and realize that it's really nothing special. I gurantee that if this coaster had been hidden within a show building with a few effects, then it would have easily turned into a "must-see" attraction -- but as is, it's really not much better than what's available at your local fair, fun - but not really worth waiting around for...

 

[PKS44]

Please go to this thread and vote on my poll about AK opinions as they relate to which admission media used--we need more votes-

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=223602

I remember my first AK visit- I left saying that they will be discounting admission in the near future--I was off-slightly- they did change rules for Florida Resident Seasonal Passes- so that was a kind of discounting to increase traffic in the park...I find it amusing how it is rumored that Burbank was snickering at that stupid Oriental Land Company for spending so much to build TDS while they (American Disney) created their cheaper parks (DCA and AK)...What OLC seemed to understand and our Disney does not is that it is never about the money...put on as good a show as you can, if it succeeds, you rake in the dough...Even if it fails, there is a satisfaction that you did your best that feeds and sustains a company in a way that getting by with half efforts no matter how profitable can never provide...mediocrity breeds employee discontent and destabilizes a company, no matter how profitable it seems at the time...if Disney wants to attract and retain the best employees it will take a change in philosophy, or better yet a complete takeover, perhaps by OLC?

 

[JeffH]

and especially EPCOT Center were huge leaps of confidence

Far from it, EPCOT was almost totally financed by sponsors who continue to make most of the profits and when it opened it was easily a "1-day park" as far as attractions go. Sure it was big, but most of it was empty space making walking one of the primary activities. Giant sponsorships signs where a part of each pavilion, whereas at AK McDonalds in Dinoland is the only sponsorship I can think of at the newer AK.
Most of the attractions in Future world (Spaceship Earth, Imagination and Motion) were quick 10 minute ride throughs, with only Energy, Symbiosis and what is now Food Rocks, and the 3D movie the only attractions that took any significant time. Then World Showcase only had 3 movies, 1 ride and 1 show to fill the rest of the day with. This was then a 'shopping and fancy dining park' after that.
Although the attraction count was greater than AK when it opened, the AK offers adventure and discovery after you are done with the rides.
Then there is also a lot to be said about the quality of attractions that AK had verses EPCOT.
CTX (and KSafari) easily beat the pants off any of the slow cartoon-like rides EPCOT had to offer. And the live shows (FotLK and Journey into Jungle Book) are much more entertaining. And Tough to Be a Bug is easily a better 3D experience than Imagination offered (which was considered, along with the American Adventure the 2 best attractions at EPCOT at the time).

 

[space42]

I dont normaly nit pick.. but.. sorry Jeff H.

Sure it was big, but most of it was empty space making walking one of the primary activities

Your talking about AK right???? where you only have one attraction in each "land"

Most of the attractions in Future world (Spaceship Earth, Imagination and Motion) were quick 10 minute ride throughs

Again, ar we talking about the same EPCOT?? Most of the FW attractions were closer to 15 minutes. And since when is a 10-15 minute long attraction concidered short??? The big rides in FW were Spaceship Earth, World of Motion, Horizons, Imagination, Energy. That is almost 2 hours of ride time alone (energy was a 45 minute presntation). Shoot.. almost forgot the Land.. add on antother 20 minutes of "ride time"
Are Pirates, Mansion, Splash Mountain quick 15 minute ride throughs also?? I dont get it.

Now, you can call Test Track a quick 5 minute ride and I would agree with you.

Again, sorry Jeff H. This was not intended to be a flame

 

[Another Voice]

“Most of the attractions in Future world …were quick 10 minute ride throughs…”

Yea, and Kali River Rapids is so long they should stop for a lunch break.

 

[JeffH]

The 'walking area' of AK would pretty much fit into Future World at Epcot. Epcot is filled with much more empty space than one might realize due to the 'magical' way that Disney has of disguising it.

The area between areas and attractions at AK is filled with lush vegetation, and theming, which, to me, made for a very relaxing walk between area as opposed to the 'long' walk between them at Epcot.

The length of the rides at the MK is not an issue considering how many rides/attractions there are in this park per square foot.
I was referring to the quality/length of attractions at AK compared to those at Epcot.

No matter what I say, AK DOES need more...I just feel that it wasn't as bad when it opened when compared to MGM (especially) and Epcot.

And there were at least 2 attractions in each land at AK, and each land is quite small. You could also say that EPCOT only had about 1 ride per pavilion, too.

 

[PKS44]

I was there in the early days of Epcot and MGM and AK-here is how I recall the early years-

Epcot was a one day park-that is, you could do most of it, but not all in one day...and feel you got your money's worth--but you had to do it commando and you had to skip a few things..as I recall we did The Land (but not Kitchen Kabaret or Symbiosis) Imagination and Magic Journeys, but not the Imagination pavillion play area, SE, Energy, Horizons and World of Motion, very little at Communicore, did Mexico and China, peeked in at Germany, Italy, Japan, did America Adventure had a beer in England. Ate in France, Did not see Impressions de France, nor O Canada...and it was closing time. The addition of Living Seas, Wonders of Life, Norway, Morroco certainly have not rendered the park any less than a one day park, even with the subtractions...I think the lack of appeal of repeating many of these attractions is what has led to Epcot's attendance declines...

MGM-was TOO CROWDED, fewer things to do and just as many people equaled an unsatisfying experience...GMR, Indy, backstage tour, I don't even remember if we did ST, Muppets then or later...it is better now but still pretty thin for a family with kids of various ages....

AK-disappointing- got there around 4:30 first afternoon-did the Safari with no wait and it was not very good--Maharajah was closed for the night, looked around the place, the Oasis, the Tree, etc...Next morning, saw the Gorilla Trail, the Maharajah Trek, FOTLK, kids enjoyed the Boneyard and nobody wanted to stay (young kids-no interest in TTBAB, CTX, Kali)Felt the animal exhibits were as nice as many zoos we have visited, the show was good, the rides were too few for families with little kids, and the whole feeling was "eh." I can't imagine what people thought the first year before Asia even opened, what a complete rip-off! Eisner has admitted to the strategy-build only a little to make the dough, then add later...I think the public is waiting till they add now and the dough is not coming until they do...

Paul

 

[Bob O]

Epcot from day one was at least one full day to see everything while AK still hasnt reached that level and is near empty near closing due to a proper number of attractions.