Splash Mountain Characters Also Retired?

[Pooh's World]

I do understand, and there is certainly no hurt in having the warnings, but they are in fact applied unevenly and that is an issue. What about things that don't have it, but should? Should everything. If you ask me, the Disney/Marvel produced X-Men comic books should carry the warnings - but nobody seems to care that they are offensive to me. It's all so arbitrary. It's fine though. If people find value in it, let them. It won't prevent me from watching anything though, and I am sometimes befuddled about why.

True one could say that Small World is offfensive. Carousel of progress for not being inclusive. Tom Sawyer Island.
Some white. little mermaid. Main Street.
You could just shred magic kingdom to pieces if you wanted to.

 

[starlite_]

I do understand, and there is certainly no hurt in having the warnings, but they are in fact applied unevenly and that is an issue. What about things that don't have it, but should? Should everything. If you ask me, the Disney/Marvel produced X-Men comic books should carry the warnings - but nobody seems to care that they are offensive to me. It's all so arbitrary. It's fine though. If people find value in it, let them. It won't prevent me from watching anything though, and I am sometimes befuddled about why.

Why are they offensive to you? Maybe it should be addressed.

And it's a whole dif beast a comic than a ride on a theme park or a movie. In the same way the rating system for books is different that the movie one.

 

[Pooh's World]

Mickey Mouse, minnie, and goody are also offensive cause his face has white skin on it. Real mice have the same colored fur all over there face and body.

This is actually true but I think it’s ridiculous to destroy everything Walt has created just to virtue signal.

 

[BrianL]

Why are they offensive to you? Maybe it should be addressed.

And it's a whole dif beast a comic than a ride on a theme park or a movie. In the same way the rating system for books is different that the movie one.

Oh, I know that. I'm a lifelong comic fan, and they are a drop int he bucket compared to teh exposure of a theme park ride or anything on Disney+ but it was just a good example to me of how this can be seen so differently. A few years back they did a story in the comics that established a mutant nation - the X-Men are mutants who have often been "feared and hated" by normal humans. It's always been allegory. This story took it so far as to state that the mutants, the X-Men, gave up on "peaceful coexistence" and not hate all humans. They are not welcom in their nation. Cyclops went so far as to tell a member of the Fantastic Four that one of their children was less valuable because they were human (the other is a mutant). It is generally nonstop hateful rhetoric, and it is considered justified because of the years of opperession. I think the creators at Marvel see it as such, but it's a ridiculous, and quite frankly offensive premise. You can't fight hate with hate.

For the record, I support diversity and inclusion and trying not to offend people too - always. But, these things are actually complicated and I think questions are valid. I don't think there's only one way to tackle the issues either. Dialogue is welcome and necessary.

 

[xipotec]

You know what else is really "problematic"? The Hall of Presidents...but we're not screaming to get rid of that...just saying you can tie anything into something that can be construed as problematic. Maybe it's better not to feel so angry and offended about everything you're told to...at least come up with those feelings yourselves and don't let Twitter tell you what you should be outraged about.

Sometimes is about awareness. Many people in this country are unaware of offensive or racists things because the do not live in that world.

Its easy to pass off racism if your not a victim of it daily.

 

[BrianL]

Sometimes is about awareness. Many people in this country are unaware of offensive or racists things because the do not live in that world.

Its easy to pass off racism if your not a victim of it daily.

Ture - awareness is a big part of it. I only take issue with the lack of any nuance in some of the proscribed schools of thought. That cuts both ways too - us poor moderates are really geting piled on!

He ain't wrong about the Hall of Presidents though - I mean, you know.

 

[Disney Bobby]

I wish I wish with all my heart, for folks to stop bending over backwards to defend racism

I'm just curious. How do you separate the horrors of zip-a-dee-doo-dah and the Song of the South characters from the man himself that created it, promoted it to the entire world, and made a ton of money doing so?

How is it that SotS and Zip are worthy of eradication, but not Walt Disney himself?

​

 

[xipotec]

I'm just curious. How do you separate the horrors of zip-a-dee-doo-dah and the Song of the South characters from the man himself that created it, promoted it to the entire world, and made a ton of money doing so?

How is it that SotS and Zip are worthy of eradication, but not Walt Disney himself?

​

Very good question. I think in the end its a matter of perspective and time.

Overall Walt did much more good than bad. I do believe that. Some of his views , which were contemporary for the TIME have now been shown to be insensitive and wrong…

But we are talkig about a man in that case, and the judge of a man should be his overall life and not always the comments he may have made at one point in his life.

With Splash, its a ride. Just a ride. And if we can change it to be more inclusive and make many people feel more comfortable in the parks….why wouldn't we? I also believe that we should foster the parks to be a place where real world issue are avoided when possible. Why would I want to make a large segment of the population uncomfortable while visiting?

Its such a no brainer to be more understanding and accommodating to people unlike ourselves in life in general…what are we “losing”?

Another poster brought up the Native people in Peter Pan ….and after riding it this month, I see how that could be offensive to our Native brothers, and wouldn't cry over it being replaced.

It just costs so little to be compassionate and
understanding….especially over a ride…

Now , Hall of Presidents??? Get rid of that thing and put in a live show called “Great Moments in History, brought to you by the Muppets”.

 

[ttintagel]

Personally, I think the Hall of Presidents has had a long enough run and I wouldn't be sad to see it go.

 

[BrianL]

Very good question. I think in the end its a matter of perspective and time.

Overall Walt did much more good than bad. I do believe that. Some of his views , which were contemporary for the TIME have now been shown to be insensitive and wrong…

But we are talkig about a man in that case, and the judge of a man should be his overall life and not always the comments he may have made at one point in his life.

With Splash, its a ride. Just a ride. And if we can change it to be more inclusive and make many people feel more comfortable in the parks….why wouldn't we? I also believe that we should foster the parks to be a place where real world issue are avoided when possible. Why would I want to make a large segment of the population uncomfortable while visiting?

Its such a no brainer to be more understanding and accommodating to people unlike ourselves in life in general…what are we “losing”?

Another poster brought up the Native people in Peter Pan ….and after riding it this month, I see how that could be offensive to our Native brothers, and wouldn't cry over it being replaced.

It just costs so little to be compassionate and
understanding….especially over a ride…

Now , Hall of Presidents??? Get rid of that thing and put in a live show called “Great Moments in History, brought to you by the Muppets”.

This is very well said. Walt has a larger body of work than just those few things and it's important to realize that. I also think the parks should be as inclusive as possible, though I might ask the question of how many people were actually offended. Of course, then how many does it take? Is even one too many? Actually, it probably is, but how could that ever be solved?

I don't think the natives as they are shown in the ride are problematic per se, but their depiction in the movie that the ride is based on certainly is. The ride just shows them sitting there, and you don't get the full contect. Of course again, the question is, when is it necessary?

I do love questions though! Questions are good. They are the key to learning.

Also, bring on The Muppets!

 

[HokieRaven5]

I'm just curious. How do you separate the horrors of zip-a-dee-doo-dah and the Song of the South characters from the man himself that created it, promoted it to the entire world, and made a ton of money doing so?

How is it that SotS and Zip are worthy of eradication, but not Walt Disney himself?

​

Technically the man who created it never saw his movie be immensely profitable. It only made $3M back when it originally released which by today’s standards would be considered a bomb vs a $2M budget. It wasn’t until being re-released in the 70s and 80s it became profitable.

People separate the creation from the creators in their own way. Same can be said of folks who love everything Harry Potter and that world, but disagree with JK Rowling personally.

 

[Pooh's World]

I'm just curious. How do you separate the horrors of zip-a-dee-doo-dah and the Song of the South characters from the man himself that created it, promoted it to the entire world, and made a ton of money doing so?

How is it that SotS and Zip are worthy of eradication, but not Walt Disney himself?

​

What you have to look at is during that time period (where society was actively racist and segregationist), where was Walt in that society.

I would submit he was on the more inclusive, diverse and non racist side of that scale.

Even SoS he gave an opportunity to a. African American actor and African culture/folklore through the Brer Rabbit Stories.

Even today it s stil racist. So question is where do you fit on that racist scale.

Disney was probably 9/10 on the non racist scale for white people of that time period

 

[BrianL]

What you have to look at is during that time period (where society was actively racist and segregationist), where was Walt in that society.

I would submit he was on the more inclusive, diverse and non racist side of that scale.

Even SoS he gave an opportunity to a. African American actor and African culture/folklore through the Brer Rabbit Stories.

Even today it s stil racist. So question is where do you fit on that racist scale.

Disney was probably 9/10 on the non racist scale for white people of that time period

This is a good point when it comes to this stuff - what was the intent? I don't think Walt was trying to be racist, even if his efforts fell short. He also wasn't necessarily trying to "save the world" either. To him, it was just entertainment. Is that right or wrong? It's hard to say - it is a feeling, right?

Walt also wasn't really antiesmitic. That only comes from his notable dislike for the other big studio heads in Hollywood because they would poach his talent or his ideas. He may have used some language to refer to them though. He was also friends with and employed many Jewish people who were instrumental in making the studio into what it became, and he did give credit where due too.

 

[xipotec]

This is very well said. Walt has a larger body of work than just those few things and it's important to realize that. I also think the parks should be as inclusive as possible, though I might ask the question of how many people were actually offended. Of course, then how many does it take? Is even one too many? Actually, it probably is, but how could that ever be solved?

I don't think the natives as they are shown in the ride are problematic per se, but their depiction in the movie that the ride is based on certainly is. The ride just shows them sitting there, and you don't get the full contect. Of course again, the question is, when is it necessary?

I do love questions though! Questions are good. They are the key to learning.

Also, bring on The Muppets!

I think for me its a combo of knowing how they are portrayed in the film, and the characterizations of them. Peter, Wendy the kids all have norma”ish” faces, while the Native people are all way over exaggerated and blown out….

Of course , Tiger Lilly , one of the main characters, and Peters interest, is portrayed much more human like..

 

[JC1984]

I think for me its a combo of knowing how they are portrayed in the film, and the characterizations of them. Peter, Wendy the kids all have norma”ish” faces, while the Native people are all way over exaggerated and blown out….
View attachment 743043
Of course , Tiger Lilly , one of the main characters, and Peters interest, is portrayed much more human like..

View attachment 743045

same could be same about Lilo and Stich’s animation. Why no warning about that? And for the record I agree with you on the Peter Pan animation. However, I would not keep my children from viewing it and haven’t kept them from it. We can have a conversation when they are old enough to understand it.

 

[starlite_]

I think for me its a combo of knowing how they are portrayed in the film, and the characterizations of them. Peter, Wendy the kids all have norma”ish” faces, while the Native people are all way over exaggerated and blown out….
View attachment 743043
Of course , Tiger Lilly , one of the main characters, and Peters interest, is portrayed much more human like..

View attachment 743045

Agree. To me the key difference is that SotS has a whole list of issues that are racist and concerning, some mentioned on this thread like the theft of African stories for example.

Peter Pan (like so many of the cartoons with warnings) on the other hand suffers from being a product of it's time. A time where Native Americans and other minorities were portrayed as "other" and as racist caricatures and no one batted an eye.

Having said that, if Native Americans came out and said that they would prefer for the ride to be edited or removed I wouldn't be opposed to it. My enjoyment of all things Peter Pan (except you weird movie with Hugh Jackman) and my love for the ride itself isn't more important than the comfort of other minorities, it's simply being a good person.

 

[xipotec]

same could be same about Lilo and Stich’s animation. Why no warning about that?

Its funny you said that, because I think about that one also. I think the difference is that ALL the characters are drawn in the style.

As a matter of fact, everything is drawn in that style, even the cars and trucks.

Its not like just a certain few characters are being drawn differently than everyone else. Thats the difference to me….Moana has the same style for every character also. So its not like just one group is being portrayed as didferent or the “outsider”.

Honestly, WALL-E has more of an issue with that…..and at the time it did get more flack for its negative portrayal of heavy people.

 

[starlite_]

same could be same about Lilo and Stich’s animation. Why no warning about that? And for the record I agree with you on the Peter Pan animation. However, I would not keep my children from viewing it and haven’t kept them from it. We can have a conversation when they are old enough to understand it.

Are you seriously comparing the racist Native American caricatures in Peter Pan to the art style used in Lilo & Stitch? Everyone is the same style in that movie.

 

[Pooh's World]

This is a good point when it comes to this stuff - what was the intent? I don't think Walt was trying to be racist, even if his efforts fell short. He also wasn't necessarily trying to "save the world" either. To him, it was just entertainment. Is that right or wrong? It's hard to say - it is a feeling, right?

Walt also wasn't really antiesmitic. That only comes from his notable dislike for the other big studio heads in Hollywood because they would poach his talent or his ideas. He may have used some language to refer to them though. He was also friends with and employed many Jewish people who were instrumental in making the studio into what it became, and he did give credit where due too.

As i mentioned all the main Disney animal characters are white. Mickey, Minnie, goofy, Donald and daisy. The only one who isn’t is a pet (Pluto). Then of the main characters only Pooh is an animal of color.
Bernard and Roo are also animals of color but are further down the Totem pole (“racist”) of Disney cinematic universe.

Is this racist?
Well Disney was just making Anthropomorphic Animal charterers in his likeness. And he just happened to be white. Idea being kids and humans relate more to those who have human attributes (see cars characters)

But in terms of now it’s not diverse and inclusive when all the main Disney characters are white. People of color are left gravitating to Pooh. While white peole still don’t notice things like this.

Do we get rid of Mickey or change his appearance? I think that’s silly.
But when you start canceling stuff like SoS then your are headed in that Direction.
It’s just virtue signalling.

There’s no reason you can’t have Splash and Tiana rides.

And the bigger issue is Disney greed which is pricing out minorities who are disproportionately poor from even going to Disney world or splash/Tiana

 

[JC1984]

Are you seriously comparing the racist Native American caricatures in Peter Pan to the art style used in Lilo & Stitch? Everyone is the same style in that movie

A direct quote from you:
Why are they offensive to you? Maybe it should be addressed.

What if I find it offensive? Now you are discounting my concerns. Maybe you should approach it like the poster above your reply and you would be taken more seriously by me.